Hell.....

Job8 · Jun 12, 2016

Hieronymus said:
A lot of misunderstanding stems from the KJV's translation mistakes concerning hell.

True. But that does not change the fact of Gehenna -- the Lake of Fire -- eternal Hell. The problem is twofold: (1) the doctrine of Hell has been under attack for a long time, and (2) too many preachers are afraid to preach on Hell.

Job8 · Jun 12, 2016

antletems said:
But, you are saying you do not believe in the word of God!You are saying scripture is not true or authentic?

Antletems,

There are many who do not really believe that the Bible is the Word of God. They believe it is simply the writings of men, and full of errors, legends, fables, and fallacies. That too is a delusion which Satan plants in the minds of those who do not love the truth.

Hieronymus · Jun 12, 2016

TX_Matt said:
The word translated to Hell in the gospels is "Gehenna", a real valley that in Jesus' day was located just outside of Jerusalem. In Jesus' day, Gehenna was the city dump, and always had a fire going to burn the trash. It was dark, smelled, fiery, destructive, and excluded from society. It was very much "Hellish"

It was the waste incinerator of the area.
Doesn't that say it all?

willowsbible · Jun 12, 2016

Dear Topcare,
On such a vast expanse of opinion platforms as has a discussion forum such as this, I'd suggest that you not be led astray by the ill intentioned to recall scripture's teaching when you seek counsel in matters such as clarification of Father's word.

John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
God is indeed agápē. Remember that the current Christian teachings are derived from the fulfillment of the older testimony the patriarchs had from God as to the promise of the redeemer, the Messiah. The new testimony arrived when Yeshua fulfilled those scriptures as the son of man and God. But Yeshua could not disavow the Father's truth in the course of his teachings. And that's why it is important I believe to realize the fire pit of brimstone and sulfur and eternal gnashing of teeth is not what was taught by Yeshua. Or by the early patriarchs of God's people.

Sheol was and is the place where we are to abide without God. Removed from God's sight.

Remember in the old testimony of God Jacob's lament? "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol."

Sheol is the grave. It does not give up its dead, it is never satiated. It is located in the earth.
That is what was in the beginning. The Hell people fear today is an invention of other than God and his word.
There are Hebrew resources that abound on search sites. Just seek out, Sheol, as a starter and you'll find them. Trust what the Hebrew teachings tell you. Because it is from the religion of the chosen people of God that all Christians today arrive at the truth of Yahweh's Son .

Vicomte13 · Jun 12, 2016

The Lake of Fire and Gehenna are not the same place. One is a place of final destruction, and has the City of God as its opposite. The other is a place of temporal punishment, paying for sin, and its opposite is Gan Eden - Paradise.

When you die, your body falls to dirt and your spirit descends to Sheol, which is Hades. In Hades there is Gan Eden, Paradise, and there is fiery Gehenna.

At the end of the world, the spirits are called forth and reassume reconstituted bodies, and become living souls once again.
They are then judged. Those that pass judgment pass into the City of God (not back into Paradise/Gan Eden). Those that fail are thrown into the Lake of Fire, where they are killed utterly and for good, body and spirit. The Lake of Fire is not Gehenna.

"Hell" is a word that has been used to translate both Sheol/Hades AND Gehenna, and that has been used to think of the Lake of Fire also, AND the darkness of Tartarus - the chasm separating Gan Eden (and Abraham) from Gehenna.

So, four different places get called Hell, and two different places get called "Heaven". And in fact nobody goes to "Heaven". The word translated as "Heaven" and "heavens" is the word "skies". They go to Paradise, which is in Sheol/Hades. And then at the end, if they pass judgment, they walk through the Gates of the City of God, which comes down FROM Heaven and reposes upon the new earth.

That's what Scripture actually SAYS, in Hebrew and Greek. The traditions have muddied it up a whole lot. And then people come out of their chairs screaming for their traditions and attacking the person who presents the actual schematic of what's really IN the text in Hebrew and Greek. Which makes the whole discussion unpleasant to have, and ultimately pointless, because it doesn't matter anyway. Do well, and you will be rewarded. Do evil, and you will be punished. That doesn't change.
So do well and don't worry about it.

expos4ever · Jun 12, 2016

Sultan Of Swing said:
Psychopathic, or are we just underestimating the severity of sinning against an absolutely and infinitely holy God?

I have never really understood this line of argument, particularly in light of Jesus' teaching on forgiveness. Defenders of the doctrine of eternal torment generally argue that such eternal torment constitutes a kind of "justice" legitimately demanded by a "holy" God against the non-believer who dies in their sins. Well, what does Jesus instruct us relative to how we react to sin? Does He instruct us to punish or demonstrate forgiveness? Obviously to forgive. The typical way this objection is dealt with is to suggest that since God is uniquely "holy", He has the right to punish while we less holy humans are to forgive.

There is an incredibly obvious problem with this that often goes unstated. Presumably the more forgiving we are, the more Christlike we are. But if to be forgiving is to be Christlike, what does that say about a "Father" God who, in complete contrast, consigns sinners to eternal torment.

Somethin' jus don't add up.

Job8 · Jun 12, 2016

Hieronymus said:
Aha, yes, but i have very little reason to believe in eternal life in hell. It's live or perish, not live with God or live in hell.

God gives you the freedom to believe the truth or believe lies. But you must also face the consequences. There is no second chance after death.

There would have been no reason for the sacrifice of Christ for sinners if there was no Hell.

sculleywr · Jun 12, 2016

Here's a good question: If hell is supposed to be a punishment, and punishment is meant to correct the recipient of punishment, then what is the intended correction?

Obviously it is not a punishment, because punishments are meant to induce change. Since change is impossible in a world without time, if the pain of hell is something that is performed by God, this "punishment" is little more than torture.

Job8 · Jun 12, 2016

<staff edit>
Just because a group of churches has adopted an erroneous doctrine does not mean that the true doctrine is not found in Scripture. A better understanding of Hell can only be found in Scripture.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7,8).

Death is separation, and the second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. Believe it.

SnowyMacie · Jun 12, 2016

Job8 said:
There would have been no reason for the sacrifice of Christ for sinners if there was no Hell.

To reconcile mankind with God, forgive sins, to display his love, the ransom for sin, etc. This is especially true if souls just become gone without Christ, there's a big reason for Christ's sacrifice. Also, I don't think anyone here is arguing there is no Hell, just disagreeing about what Hell is.

Job8 · Jun 12, 2016

sculleywr said:
Here's a good question: If hell is supposed to be a punishment, and punishment is meant to correct the recipient of punishment, then what is the intended correction?

Hell is not for correction but for ETERNAL SEPARATION. Since God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth, it should be crystal clear that whatever is unclean, unholy, and evil will be totally removed and thoroughly purged. The globe of the earth will be purified with supernatural fire, but all the unbelieving, the ungodly, and evildoers will be consigned and confined to Outer Darkness (probably outside space) in the Lake of Fire.

SnowyMacie · Jun 12, 2016

Job8 said:
Just because a group of churches has adopted an erroneous doctrine does not mean that the true doctrine is not found in Scripture. A better understanding of Hell can only be found in Scripture.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7,8).

Death is separation, and the second death is eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire. Believe it.

They really can't adopt a doctrine they've held since they first read scripture two-thousand years ago. If anything, it is Western Christianity that adopted the doctrine of a fiery Hell.

sculleywr · Jun 12, 2016

Job8 said:
Hell is not for correction but for ETERNAL SEPARATION. Since God will create a New Heaven and a New Earth, it should be crystal clear that whatever is unclean, unholy, and evil will be totally removed and thoroughly purged. The globe of the earth will be purified with supernatural fire, but all the unbelieving, the ungodly, and evildoers will be consigned and confined to Outer Darkness (probably outside space) in the Lake of Fire.

The question isn't that. The question is whether or not God would intentionally cause pain in people with no real purpose for that pain. God does not do purposeless things. So if God is causing the pain, rather than the pain being caused by those who enter into separation, then to what ends?

Hieronymus · Jun 12, 2016

Job8 said:
God gives you the freedom to believe the truth or believe lies. But you must also face the consequences. There is no second chance after death.

There would have been no reason for the sacrifice of Christ for sinners if there was no Hell.

I'm often misunderstood on this.
I do believe in hell, but not in eternal life in hell.

God will make everything new.
You think He will make a new hell with eternal torture for the wicked form the old Creation?

The punishment is the 2nd death, the death Christians will not suffer, for they will LIVE.

topcare · Jun 12, 2016

Colter said:
There is either eternal life or cessation of existence, it's our choice. Hell is a creation of the medicine man, the shaman, priest craft. A God of eternal torture is a sick concept, worse than ISIS.

It's in the Bible and real.

Neogaia777 · Jun 12, 2016

In the OT, with the exception of in the Garden of Eden, their is little to no mention of eternal existence, but Jesus, and during and after Jesus time, he wishes to take us back to the Garden, and paradise, where their is the possibility of eternal death and eternal life...

willowsbible · Jun 12, 2016

antletems said:
Thing is, you would not know about the 'Word' if it wasn't for the Scriptures / Bible!

No one knew of God before the advent of writing?

topcare · Jun 12, 2016

antletems said:
What about the wrath of God in the OT then?

That is a great question. Many will agree that God is the same today, yesterday, and forever and than go on to say the opposite that God is love. While God may be loving there is also His wrath when he drowned the Egyptians, and other examples in the OT. It's as if modern Christian want to forget about that.

SnowyMacie · Jun 12, 2016

antletems said:
Thing is, you would not know about the 'Word' if it wasn't for the Scriptures / Bible!

I think that several 1st century saints would disagree. I'd also guess that you probably first heard about Jesus from someone else, not from reading it in scripture. While it is true the Bible is how the gospel has been recorded, if we woke up tomorrow and suddenly every Bible had vanished off the Earth, I don't think that would stop the gospel.

hedrick · Jun 12, 2016

Hieronymus said:
It was the waste incinerator of the area.
Doesn't that say it all?

While this is true, the commentaries I've checked on relevant passages generally note that Gehenna had come in 1st Cent Judaism to refer to a place of eschatological judgment.

From the Word commentary on Mat 5:22:

The name Gehenna is from the Aramaic words גֵּי חִנָּם, gê ḥinnām, for the “valley of Hinnom” (cf. Josh 15:8; 18:16), a despised place to the southwest of Jerusalem where at one time human sacrifices were offered to the god Molech (cf. 2 Kgs 23:10; Jer 7:31) and where in later times the city’s refuse was burned. The constant burning there made the valley a particularly suitable metaphor for eternal punishment (cf. 4 Ezra 7:36; Sib. Or. 1.103; 2.292; Str-B 4.2:1029–1118).

The TDNT entry notes:

It is significant that the oldest Rabbinic reference to Gehenna (T. Sanh., 13, 3 and par.) tells us that the disciples of Shammai, as distinct from those of Hillel, ascribe to Gehenna a purgatorial as well as a penal character, namely, in the case of the שְׁקוּלִים or בֵּינוֹנִים, i.e., those whose merits and transgressions balance one another. It may be that this conception of a purificatory character of the final fire of judgment underlies such passages as Mk. 9:49; 1 C. 3:13–15; cf. 2 Pt. 3:10.

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