Hell.....

[Linet Kihonge]

sculleywr I'm having a tough time getting what your point is? Are you saying, God doesn't torture people in hell but rather people torture themselves? I thought hell in itself would be torturing. Otherwise, the final hell should be a lake fire and it will be created by God but after that, it wouldn't be his fault that anyone went to hell, it's not his wish that people go to hell, it's what we did while on this lifetime that would. I know and feel that the LORD will give each one of us a fair chance to repent and to see him for who he is

 

[sculleywr]

sculleywr I'm having a tough time getting what your point is? Are you saying, God doesn't torture people in hell but rather people torture themselves? I thought hell in itself would be torturing. Otherwise, the final hell should be a lake fire and it will be created by God but after that, it wouldn't be his fault that anyone went to hell, it's not his wish that people go to hell, it's what we did while on this lifetime that would. I know and feel that the LORD will give each one of us a fair chance to repent and to see him for who he is

Hell is, in itself, torturous, but that does not mean that the torture is the result of God's direct and intentional action. Rather, it is the result of our not being prepared for His Presence properly. And that preparation is done by our bringing ourselves in contact with Christ by being in His Church, repenting of our sins and becoming more like Him in sanctification. The fact that coming into God's presence without allowing His Son to prepare our hearts and souls for that is even shown in the temporal consequences of receiving Eucharist unworthily, as Paul mentioned that this is the reason that many among the people of Corinth were sick and dying. Coming so close to God, even with the filter of the physical world and His having concealed the direct presence of Himself from us, such an intimate reception of God is toxic to those of us who have not properly prepared ourselves for it.

The nature of hell and the lake of fire is not a result of outside intervention. Rather, it is the result of the parts of hell and the lake of fire. When you put evil, and the consequences of evil, into one place, you put a person into the consequences of his own life. But those consequences would not exist had he not been evil. So if a person were to somehow not sin (which is technically possible, since sin is a choice. However, as far as I know, no person has ever accomplished this feat) he would not experience the consequences of sin. The pain is Death, and Death is the "wages" of sin. It is the inevitable result of sin.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

God's punishment and man's self-inflicted consequences are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

If I lead a life of lawlessness and get myself arrested and sentenced to 25 years in prison, I've done it to myself, yet the state/judge/justice system has done it, as well.

 

[sculleywr]

God's punishment and man's self-inflicted consequences are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

If I lead a life of lawlessness and get myself arrested and sentenced to 25 years in prison, I've done it to myself, yet the state/judge/justice system has done it, as well.

If I, as a child, steal a pill from my mom's medicine cabinet and accidentally overdose, the hospital is my self-inflicted consequence. If I get a spanking upon arriving at home, that is my mother's punishment. They are not the same.

And hell is not a punishment. Punishments are intended to CORRECT. By the very nature of being eternal, eternal torment will not correct, because there is no possibility of displaying correction after infinity because there is no after to infinity.

 

[topcare]

Discipline is for correction not punishment

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So if a person were to somehow not sin (which is technically possible, since sin is a choice. However, as far as I know, no person has ever accomplished this feat) he would not experience the consequences of sin. The pain is Death, and Death is the "wages" of sin. It is the inevitable result of sin.

To clarify, or confirm, (maybe expand perspective) in line with all God's Word,

who is free from experiencing the consequences of sin today ? (according to God's Word)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Punishments are intended to CORRECT

And how was the capital punishment which God instructed, "correction"?

 

[sculleywr]

Discipline is for correction not punishment

Discipline and punishment are synonyms. Torture is not punishment. It is not synonymous with either discipline or punishment. And I'm sorry, but God holding a literal fire to people is not punishment or discipline, because punishment and discipline are contingent on the offense involved and are appropriate to the size of the offense itself, not the artificial inflation of the offended's addition to the offense.

Besides that, if the offense of sin is infinite, then it is equal to God, because God is infinite and infinity=infinity. The only way that infinite punishment is appropriate to our sin is if our sin is infinite in nature. But if sin is infinite in nature, then it is impossible for God to be greater than it, because if it is infinite, then there are no limits to it. And what's even more absurd, this is man creating it. Instead of asking the question of "Can God create a rock so large He cannot lift it", now you have man creating a rock so large God can't lift it.

 

[topcare]

Discipline and punishment are synonyms. Torture is not punishment.

To me they are and always have been two different words. Discipline is for correction, God disciplines those He loves. Punishment is when no discipline is possible or not working, the wicked get punished not tortured and the wicked place themselves in Hell.

No sense continuing I will always disagree with you

 

[sculleywr]

And how was the the capital punishment which God instructed, "correction"?

That wasn't punishment. In fact, the phrase "Capital punishment" didn't exist until the modern era, so it doesn't even apply. It is an incorrect application to the definition of the word. It was not punishment. It was a sentence. It was not intended for correction. Technically, one can say that a life sentence is the highest possible punishment, since it can result in the correction of the inmate, as the elder of my parish has witnessed and ministers to several lifers who have since repented while in prison, and have accepted their sentence as an opportunity to spend the rest of their lives in prayer and repentance, praying for the needs of others in and out of the prison, and essentially living the life of a monk, albeit without the opportunities to minister outside of the prison like monks are required to. Even a death sentence in today's world can still result in correction in America, because of the inefficiency of the system and the recent shortage in the drugs required for injections. However, in its original form, execution was not a punishment. It was an execution. It was the result of the offense, but it was not intended as a correction, except under the Medieval Catholic period where the flames of burning at stake were thought to cleanse the heretic of their heresy, which is a very horrible and untrue belief that modern Catholics, thank God, no longer believe.

 

[sculleywr]

To me they are and always have been two different words. Discipline is for correction, God disciplines those He loves. Punishment is when no discipline is possible or not working, the wicked get punished not tortured and the wicked place themselves in Hell.

No sense continuing I will always disagree with you

That is torture. it has no purpose except for the fact that it implies that God will:

1. Cause pain that has no purpose other than the pain itself
2. Since it is a willful act of God, God is WILLING AND DESIROUS that the torture happen
3. God is able to choose not to cause the pain, and instead chooses to cause the pain regardless of the fact that the pain He is causing creates a sum total of zero good.

 

[sculleywr]

To clarify, or confirm, (maybe expand perspective) in line with all God's Word,

who is free from experiencing the consequences of sin today ? (according to God's Word)

I was not referring to the temporal consequences. I was referring to the eternal ones. No man is free from the temporal consequences, as even Christ, Who was without sin, still endured the pain of death and physical pain, which are the temporal effects of sin. But the eternal consequences of sin are something that result from the nature of sin itself, and not from the nature of God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Really? I see a lot of people, every day, suffering temporal consequences, some horribly, of sin.

Also, I saw and agree with a greeting when visiting a home :
"Shalom , freedom from sin, and from all the consequences of sin, be to you and your household today."
and have found it to be both true and effective, and completely in line with Jesus and the Gospel.

 

[sculleywr]

Really? I see a lot of people, every day, suffering temporal consequences, some horribly, of sin.

Also, I saw and agree with a greeting when visiting a home :
"Shalom , freedom from sin, and from all the consequences of sin, be to you and your household today."
and have found it to be both true and effective, and completely in line with Jesus and the Gospel.

I specifically said no man is free from the temporal consequences of sin. So...How is your response not a non sequitir?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I specifically said no man is free from the temporal consequences of sin. So...How is your response not a non sequitir?

I see, as per the blessing to a home when a disciple of Jesus visits,
people who are free, today, from sin, from the power of sin, (and from the power of the world; dead to the world, and the world dead to us).
Always in complete harmony with all of God's Word , Plan and Purpose in Jesus.

I also see a lot of people every day suffering, unnecessarily, the consequences of sin, and willingly remaining under sins power.

 

[sculleywr]

I see, as per the blessing to a home when a disciple of Jesus visits,
people who are free, today, from sin, from the power of sin, (and from the power of the world; dead to the world, and the world dead to us).
Always in complete harmony with all of God's Word , Plan and Purpose in Jesus.

I also see a lot of people every day suffering, unnecessarily, the consequences of sin, and willingly remaining under sins power.

Chronic illnesses, like my ulcerative colitis, or the cancers of other people, and all ways in which the body can fall apart, are all the result of sin. Even mental illnesses or disabilities are the result of sin. They all make us less than God wants us to be, because God wants us to be perfect, and He will make us perfect in heaven, if we will work on being as close to morally perfect on earth as we can and let God fill our lives and make up the distance that we will never be able to make up. That is salvation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes (?). Salvation/ Healing/ Truth is all free from God in Jesus.
Some people are never in this life free from some of the consequences of sin.
Some are.
Why ? God knows.

 

[sculleywr]

Yes (?). Salvation/ Healing/ Truth is all free from God in Jesus.
Some people are never in this life free from some of the consequences of sin.
Some are.
Why ? God knows.

It is free from Jesus. It is a gift. But if we are to benefit from a gift, we must use the gift. My parents currently are paying for my medicine. But if I do not take the medicine, then I will not benefit from the gift of medicine that is alleviating my symptoms (once I finally find the medicine that will put me in remission, I will be very happy). If I leave the medicine on the shelf, then I have not TRULY received that medicine. If we leave the regeneration of Christ's work in us on the shelf, and instead go and do the things which we ought not do, then we should not expect to benefit from the salvation offered to us. See, the works that truly save us are not something we do, but something we receive. When we feed a hungry person, we do not do the work, we receive that deed from Christ. We received both the ability to feed the hungry person and the opportunity from Christ. Is not the food we give to the hungry person given to us by God, whether He guided us into the job where the money for the food came from, or were given it by someone else?

Our works are not truly ours. They are the result of God giving us the ability and opportunity to use that ability. This is how synergism works. We do not do the works that save us. We allow God to do the work in us that saves us.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

When the LORD lit up Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't it final? He cleared an entire population with burning fire from heaven.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When the LORD lit up Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't it final? He cleared an entire population with burning fire from heaven.

Final for them, yes.
A warning for men everywhere today, yes.