Hell

[Gnarwhal]

Such a fun and light topic. My intention is not to argue about whether there is hell or not, but rather just hear peoples thoughts about it.


- How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?

- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?

- If you have changed your beliefs one way or another about this at some point in your life, want to share something about that?

I would be lying if I said hell wasn't a part of my consciousness, being raised evangelical it tends to be a central part of our doctrine. But I'm not convinced of the conventional Catholic and Protestant ideas of hell, despite my affiliations. I think the Eastern Orthodox make the most compelling description of what hell is, but I also think Rob Bell brought forward some worthwhile thoughts (they weren't necessarily his own).

What I'm convinced hell actually is, is both a present reality and an eternal state.

As a present reality, people experience hell all over the world when they're faced with violence, injustice, oppression, disease, hunger, thirst; I believe the perpetrators of those things also experience a sort of hell because those things are not aligned with God's kingdom, thus they bring suffering and death to all involved. Hell-on-Earth is just as much of a possibility and a reality as is Heaven-on-Earth.

As far as eternity goes, the Eastern Orthodox teach that hell is being in the presence of God when you don't want to be. Being in his presence while hating him, resenting him, rejecting him. His pure, infinite love burns like a fire for those who resist God. However, given enough time that love chips away at resistance and when it finally wears down, it no longer burns but becomes beautiful bliss, it becomes heaven.

 

[Rhamiel]

I would be lying if I said hell wasn't a part of my consciousness, being raised evangelical it tends to be a central part of our doctrine. But I'm not convinced of the conventional Catholic and Protestant ideas of hell, despite my affiliations. I think the Eastern Orthodox make the most compelling description of what hell is, but I also think Rob Bell brought forward some worthwhile thoughts (they weren't necessarily his own).

What I'm convinced hell actually is, is both a present reality and an eternal state.

As a present reality, people experience hell all over the world when they're faced with violence, injustice, oppression, disease, hunger, thirst; I believe the perpetrators of those things also experience a sort of hell because those things are not aligned with God's kingdom, thus they bring suffering and death to all involved. Hell-on-Earth is just as much of a possibility and a reality as is Heaven-on-Earth.

As far as eternity goes, the Eastern Orthodox teach that hell is being in the presence of God when you don't want to be. Being in his presence while hating him, resenting him, rejecting him. His pure, infinite love burns like a fire for those who resist God. However, given enough time that love chips away at resistance and when it finally wears down, it no longer burns but becomes beautiful bliss, it becomes heaven.

so it is not so much an eternal hell but more of like a kind of Purgatory?
just trying to sum up your view
and it is not that I do not trust you, but in my recollection I do not remember the EO saying hell is temporary?

 

[Rhamiel]

who was the first teacher to teach annihilationism?

 

[Nanopants]

I'm not sure. Would that include people who have taught that only God is immortal, or that human beings are essentially impermanent, apart from eternal life in the Son?

 

[Fallior]

I thought this would be a PERFECT response to this topic. Found it on a different site.

(1) A loving God would not send people to a horrible hell.

Response: God is just (Romans 2:11).

God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9).
Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10).
Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25).



(2) Hell is too severe a punishment for man’s sin.

Response: God is holy-perfect (1 Peter 1:14,15).

Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (Romans 1:18-32).
Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).
What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).

 

[Rhamiel]

I thought this would be a PERFECT response to this topic. Found it on a different site.

(1) A loving God would not send people to a horrible hell.

Response: God is just (Romans 2:11).

God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9).
Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10).
Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25).



(2) Hell is too severe a punishment for man’s sin.

Response: God is holy-perfect (1 Peter 1:14,15).

Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (Romans 1:18-32).
Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).
What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).

wow! thank you for using scripture to back that all up
that is a very reasonable and scripture filled post!

 

[Vlad The Exhaler]

^^

If I create a machine with advanced cognitive abilities, the ability to think, reason, and above all - have free will choice...

...and if in that machine is also the ability to feel real physical pain, emotional pain, mental anguish and so forth...

If that machine disobeys my will, what does it say of me, the Creator, to punish it with constant pain - physical, emotional, spiritual for as long as I am able to do so?

Does it really have a free will when the only option other than to do what I will it is so seriously dire?

If it is willful and disobeys, would it not make more practical sense to simply turn it off - or

as the analogy in the bible goes - throw it as a weed into the fire to be destroyed?

The irony of the argument that "God is holy" to justify an eternity of unspeakable punishment for a finite lifetime of sins is that it is only the pyschologically ill that endorse it or approve of others doing it here on earth.

 

[Gnarwhal]

so it is not so much an eternal hell but more of like a kind of Purgatory?
just trying to sum up your view
and it is not that I do not trust you, but in my recollection I do not remember the EO saying hell is temporary?

Thanks for catching me on that, it's been so long since I've studied the positions mentioned in my previous post that I've started to conflate them. So to amend my statement, the Eastern Orthodox do teach that hell is experiencing the divine unpleasantly, but they do not teach that one can change their position in it.

 

[Vlad The Exhaler]

who was the first teacher to teach annihilationism?

Within a Christian context - Christ.

Seen in the stories about the wheat and the chaff and trees that do not bear fruit.

They are cut down and thrown into the fire to be destroyed. I can't imagine one villager having anything but a clear idea of what this represents - total destruction - not some sort of regenerative hell where they are tortured forever.

From my recollection, this whole idea eternal regenerative hell comes from the Greeks. It's not even found in Jewish Scripture, the opposite is - as pointed out by Micah 4:3

 

[SnowyMacie]

From my recollection, this whole idea eternal regenerative hell comes from the Greeks. It's not even found in Jewish Scripture, the opposite is - as pointed out by Micah 4:3

It probably came into the Judeo-Christian tradition through Zoroastrianism during the Jewish exile first. If you look back far enough into Jewish history, Satan was seen much more as God's District Attorney than his advisory.

 

[Rhamiel]

It probably came into the Judeo-Christian tradition through Zoroastrianism during the Jewish exile first. If you look back far enough into Jewish history, Satan was seen much more as God's District Attorney than his advisory.

yes, many concepts are incomplete in Judaism
you can also see a distinct clannishness, the idea that the Messiah will come like a conquering military commander, Monolatrism (a form of polytheism), in many Jewish writings and Scriptures

these ideas evolved over the course of time, as the fullness of revelation was being brought to us

 

[Rhamiel]

Within a Christian context - Christ.

Seen in the stories about the wheat and the chaff and trees that do not bear fruit.

They are cut down and thrown into the fire to be destroyed. I can't imagine one villager having anything but a clear idea of what this represents - total destruction - not some sort of regenerative hell where they are tortured forever.

From my recollection, this whole idea eternal regenerative hell comes from the Greeks. It's not even found in Jewish Scripture, the opposite is - as pointed out by Micah 4:3

Jesus also said there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth
hard to do that stuff if you don't exist anymore

Jesus does not come right out and say "the damned cease to exist"
I was asking for the first person who interpreted Christ's words to mean that
because those who believe in eternal hell fire also can get a laundry list of bible verses, and then we are just throwing bible verses at each other and that is a dead end

 

[Vlad The Exhaler]

Jesus also said there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth
hard to do that stuff if you don't exist anymore

Jesus does not come right out and say "the damned cease to exist"

Neither does an uprooted tree or weed cease to exist when thrown in fire. Fizzles and crackling happen until the material is burned and becomes ash. As a tree or weed, they no longer exist as such - they are ash, but they don't go quietly.

I was asking for the first person who interpreted Christ's words to mean that
because those who believe in eternal hell fire also can get a laundry list of bible verses, and then we are just throwing bible verses at each other and that is a dead end

Yes, and many of them are based on selective interpretations of phrases that include words such as "eternal" and "everlasting". The tree burned in the fire suffers an eternal or everlasting death - it can never regenerate itself with it's seed dropped into the soil and fed by water.

But that doesn't mean it's in some netherworld crackling and fizzling for all eternity.

 

[Rhamiel]

we can look at Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins


so "death" does not always mean non-existence
the "death" of those in hell is not unlike the spiritual death of the unrepentant sinner on earth, only the corruption of those in hell is more complete

 

[Nanopants]

For me, personally, to be united with a being, spiritually or what have you, which desires to administer infinite punishments for finite offenses (injustice according to inspired scripture), sounds quite hellish.

I'd much rather be united with a being who desires to be merciful. I suppose it is possible that that's the point of there being support for both according to scripture: Christ, being judge, presents us with choice, not unlike a "choose this day" sort of a scenario.

Edit: Hmm. I struggle to get my point across sometimes. But, look, because a picture is worth a thousand words, I think this is like the image presented by scripture:

Spoiler: warning, this is graphic

But why? What I am saying is that inspired scripture, the word of God, is almost asking you a question: that being something like "do you desire for this to happen to this child?" In effect, it is looking into your desires, searching your heart, and collectively, for those whose hearts are loyal to God. But who is God? What is He like? Do we know Him?

 

[Rhamiel]

one of the big arguments against hell seems to be that just punishment for sin should be finite
if sin against an Infinite Being can be paid for with finite punishment, why did we need a Sacrifice of Infinite worth? I am talking about the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross?
why not just stick with lambs and doves being offered in a Temple?
my understanding is that those offerings might be able to atone for the finite consequences of sins, but not the eternal consequences of sins

since all sin is a sin against God, justice demands eternal punishment

we can also get into private revelation, of course this should not supersede the Bible, but there have been hundreds (thousands?) of Christians who have seen visions of those suffering in hell

 

[Vlad The Exhaler]

one of the big arguments against hell seems to be that just punishment for sin should be finite
if sin against an Infinite Being can be paid for with finite punishment, why did we need a Sacrifice of Infinite worth? I am talking about the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross?
why not just stick with lambs and doves being offered in a Temple?
my understanding is that those offerings might be able to atone for the finite consequences of sins, but not the eternal consequences of sins

since all sin is a sin against God, justice demands eternal punishment

we can also get into private revelation, of course this should not supersede the Bible, but there have been hundreds (thousands?) of Christians who have seen visions of those suffering in hell

Eternal consequences for sin, by the way you mean it of course - assumes all souls live forever in some state of union with God or disharmony with God.

In the aggregate, I don't believe the bible teaches this.

As for the "Sacrifice of Infinite Worth" - what exactly does this mean to you?
Does it mean that by accepting the death, resurrection and ascending of Christ you gain eternal life?

Alone, I mean.

 

[MehGuy]

Hell exists, I have been there.

 

[Rhamiel]

Eternal consequences for sin, by the way you mean it of course - assumes all souls live forever in some state of union with God or disharmony with God.

In the aggregate, I don't believe the bible teaches this.

As for the "Sacrifice of Infinite Worth" - what exactly does this mean to you?
Does it mean that by accepting the death, resurrection and ascending of Christ you gain eternal life?

Alone, I mean.

it means that Christ is truly God and that His death on the Cross is of infinite worth, that is why we needed Christ to die for us, the sacrifice of bulls and sheep and doves could never pay for our sins, not totally

as for salvation by faith alone, I do not believe the Bible teaches that, we can see from the words of Christ that faith is needed, but we also have to conform ourselves to His will, Jesus says "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" in Matthew 7:23, this is in reference to people who accepted Him as Lord, but did not live according to His commandments

 

[Vlad The Exhaler]

Eternal consequences for sin, by the way you mean it of course - assumes all souls live forever in some state of union with God or disharmony with God.

In the aggregate, I don't believe the bible teaches this.

As for the "Sacrifice of Infinite Worth" - what exactly does this mean to you?
Does it mean that by accepting the death, resurrection and ascending of Christ you gain eternal life?

Alone, I mean.

it means that Christ is truly God and that His death on the Cross is of infinite worth, that is why we needed Christ to die for us, the sacrifice of bulls and sheep and doves could never pay for our sins, not totally

as for salvation by faith alone, I do not believe the Bible teaches that, we can see from the words of Christ that faith is needed, but we also have to conform ourselves to His will, Jesus says "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" in Matthew 7:23, this is in reference to people who accepted Him as Lord, but did not live according to His commandments

A point we agree on.

Just one more question at this time. As all men die physical deaths, this "eternal life" must refer to something other than some continued existence on earth, or, if that is not accepted - then a resurrection of the saved physical bodies at some point in time.

So the concept of Hell in the traditional sense - that is - being punished forever, forever in agony etc

isn't this also "eternal life"? It's eternal life - a continued existence, a continued consciousness - but in some sort of horrible prison for rebels.

What I'm trying to explain is that in the Traditional concept of Hell there is no real death - it is instead a twisted version of "eternal life" - life, in some sense, continues - but only in a twisted, wretched form and a continual punishment within that existence.