Hell

[redblue22]

I deserve hell, so I see my need for Jesus to save me.

 

[Messy]

I deserve hell, so I see my need for Jesus to save me.

Yes me too. I can't even imagine how people could do just some minor offenses.
There was a thread about how sinful you were from a scale from 1 to 10. I gave myself a 10 and saw some people saying oh a 2 or a 3. Lol I'm gonna compete with Paul who was the worst. Don't think he wins.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CcjuC016c68

 

[SnowyMacie]

Yes me too. I can't even imagine how people could do just some minor offenses.
There was a thread about how sinful you were from a scale from 1 to 10. I gave myself a 10 and saw some people saying oh a 2 or a 3. Lol I'm gonna compete with Paul who was the worst. Don't think he wins.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CcjuC016c68

I don't remember that thread, but I'd rate myself at least a ten. What SK and I are saying isn't that we don't need Hell to live for Christ. Hypothetically, if someone disproved Christianity beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'd still follow Jesus because I think it's the best way to live. We're also not saying it's wrong to not think like this, everyone is different.

 

[Messy]

I don't remember that thread, but I'd rate myself at least a ten. What SK and I are saying isn't that we don't need Hell to live for Christ. Hypothetically, if someone disproved Christianity beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'd still follow Jesus because I think it's the best way to live. We're also not saying it's wrong to not think like this, everyone is different.

Yes I agree on that. When I got saved fortunately I never heard about it. Wasn't raised christian. My kid when he heard about it got psychological problems and anxiety. My ex wanted to take him to the doctor. So stupid, just don't tell that. He was afraid that when he got older he wouldn't believe anymore and go there. I told him don't worry, I told God I didn't want kids without the assurance of them always following Him. That gave him rest. When he was afraid about other people I told him to just pray for them. So he prayed for the whole World to be saved and said Thank You Lord. Problem solved.

 

[SarahsKnight]

My kid when he heard about it got psychological problems and anxiety. My ex wanted to take him to the doctor. So stupid, just don't tell that. He was afraid that when he got older he wouldn't believe anymore and go there. I told him don't worry, I told God I didn't want kids without the assurance of them always following Him. That gave him rest. When he was afraid about other people I told him to just pray for them.

Well I'm glad it eventually worked out for your child, Miss Messy, but still, that's one of my problems with the traditional view of torture in the first place. Look at the problems it causes with people, like anxiety, depression, needless doubt, anger and judgment, etc. There's just something not right here. I've even heard a couple of stories of a parent murdering their children because they were afraid of them going to hell if they didn't send them to God right now. And the thing is, I doubt anyone would be driven to evil extremes like in that example if they thought that their unsaved loved ones were simply going to be destroyed in the end instead of suffer consciously in physical and/or mental anguish for eternity.

Still, I'm sure you won't go drowning a child to "save their soul" or anything stupid like that, Miss Messy, or any other woman here in us singles' community, and I believe people like you, Sunshine, Gracie, and others have a good attitude representative of Christ despite holding to the traditional view, and that's totally cool. I only take issue with it when I see it creating a condemning or self-righteous attitude in people, or a sense of emotional anguish and anxiety in the victims of religious OCD that I think the traditional hell view is primarily responsible for.

But I should leave it at that before I get too sensitive over the topic. Unfortunately I have made that mistake a few times already.

Besides, as always, it is not the most important Biblical subject for us believers and the outside world that may still need to be reached. It's all about Christ Himself, his love, death, and resurrection - not differing interpretations of peripheral issues.

 

[redblue22]

The best way to live is by the Holy Spirit living within and through us. Salvation is the central issue, not a peripheral issue. If our God Christ Jesus is not raised from the dead, then we are the worst off of all people; our faith does not matter. (1 Corinth 14)

SK, we're tempted to murder children if we believe in the salvation message? Really?

If Christianity is proved false, I'm done here and I will look somewhere else.

.

 

[JackofSpades]

Well I'm glad it eventually worked out for your child, Miss Messy, but still, that's one of my problems with the traditional view of torture in the first place. Look at the problems it causes with people, like anxiety, depression, needless doubt, anger and judgment, etc. There's just something not right here.

I think what you say is worth to note. Not saying that psychological reasons alone should determine someones statements of faith, but those can sometimes work as alarm signs.

As personal testimony on topic, as younger, I used to hold (thinking back, maybe somewhat twisted) belief that there is something devout or godly in state of mind of being afraid of hell, in "having fear of God" - sense. That kind of changed as a result of having experience which seemed to point to conclusion that such fear of mine was at least partly caused by some unfriendly being.

While I try to avoid making too far-fetched conclusions from that kind of subjective experiences I have to say that it was among one the many things that served to alienate me from fundamentalistic brand of Christianity which was my background. More than any particular dogmatic conclusion, it was for me "something is wrong with that mentality" - kind of enlightenment.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Not saying that psychological reasons alone should determine someones statements of faith, but those can sometimes work as alarm signs.

Right. That's the point I was trying to get across last post, but I think you stated it better.

 

[God2Good4me]

I believe that God Judges the heart, and by God's standard if i hate someone then i have already murdered that person in my heart. If I want something someone already has(specifically what they have) then i am a theif, and if I look at a woman and lust after her then i have comitted adultery im my heart. I admit i have been all of these things, and by gods standard i cannot be with him in eternity, i have fallen short of his glorious standard, but thanks be to God i have jesus to pay for what ive done, he gave himself as payment for all mandkind, god desires that NONE perish but havbe eternal life and it is as simple as asking jesus into your life. what i was tryin to say before was we dont need to be(even physically) capable of murder or adultery if we have thought about it we have already done it. the good news is jesus saves us from that. it is my belief that we choose hell because god is saying " you want nothing to do with me? fine you can live in a place far away from me and my presence and anything to do with me when your time on earth is over" he's giving you what you want.
God doesnt want us to go there, he wants to be with us and us with him. he wants to be your friend, your father, he will take care of you, he loves you.... its why he created you, to have a realtionship with you.

 

[Vlad The Exhaler]

Such a fun and light topic. My intention is not to argue about whether there is hell or not, but rather just hear peoples thoughts about it.


- How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?

- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?

- If you have changed your beliefs one way or another about this at some point in your life, want to share something about that?

- I consider it a spiritual state that can be experienced while living on this earth, it is inside - much like Christ said the kingdom of heaven is inside.

- Simple. Not all souls live forever. The idea of souls in agony in hell for all time is not supported by the words of Christ - although many a Baptist have tried to put emphasis on certain interpretations while ignoring other biblical passages.

- If a man or woman lives a full life by our standards of longevity - somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-90 years and during that time, they do some of the most heinous deeds that can ever be done - it is still in my mind incompatible for a loving God to punish them by torture for eternity. Not only incompatible with love but also with Justice - as that claim is often made to defend the dogma. Biblical justice in the OT demanded "life for life", "tooth for tooth". One may argue that that is primitive but at least it seems fair.
Eternity is by definition timeless - it never ends. No matter how terrible a person is in this life condemning them to endless torture does not seem either just nor fair nor loving in any sense of those words - not when compared to a limited lifetime of iniquities.

 

[Rhamiel]

semi blind post

a lot of people have problems with reconciling the idea of Hell and a loving God
really, if God loves us, He will allow Hell to exist

Hell is to reject the grace of God, to reject union with Him
if God forced His love on us, if He did not allow us to choose Hell, that would make God some kind of Cosmic Rapist, forcing His will on those who do not want to be with Him

so when people go to hell, it is because they rejected God in whatever capacity they were capable of.

We were made to be in union with God, we were made to worship Him
so Hell is the greatest frustration of our existential purpose
that is the main suffering of Hell

it is argued if the pains of hell are just existential or if there are other kinds of torture
this is an interesting question

one argument for their being different types of punishment in hell is the idea of punishments being contingent upon the level of being the offense is committed against
for example, if I crush a blade of grass, no one would care
if I crush a spider I might get a comment "oh that was not nice" but still basically no one would care
if I crush a dog to death, I would be charged with animal cruelty in most nations, and I would hope the vast majority of people would be disturbed by my actions
if I crushed a human to death, I would get serious jail time or maybe even the death penalty

the difference is not the action, crushing to death, it is the level of being I am crushing

all sin is a sin against God, who is the Infinite Being
thus being Infinite, any offence against Him calls for infinite Punishment

 

[SarahsKnight]

a lot of people have problems with reconciling the idea of Hell and a loving God
really, if God loves us, He will allow Hell to exist

Hell is to reject the grace of God, to reject union with Him
if God forced His love on us, if He did not allow us to choose Hell, that would make God some kind of Cosmic Rapist, forcing His will on those who do not want to be with Him

so when people go to hell, it is because they rejected God in whatever capacity they were capable of.

We were made to be in union with God, we were made to worship Him

And that is why I like and respect you in spite of our differing opinions on this, Rhamiel. You seem to think it is the natural consequence, thus God is not the one doing the sending to hell, but at the same time He allows you to reject him. So at least you never sounded sadistic or smug about putting forth this teaching. You just think that that's how it is; that if one rejects God, he still has to live forever somewhere, and thus hell can be the only other place to allow for one's separation from God. Hopefully I am understanding you right, that that is basically how you see it.

 

[Vlad The Exhaler]

semi blind post

a lot of people have problems with reconciling the idea of Hell and a loving God
really, if God loves us, He will allow Hell to exist

I'm fine with the idea of Hell if it just means exclusion or termination. The bible does teach this elsewhere - see Malachi 4:3

all sin is a sin against God, who is the Infinite Being
thus being Infinite, any offence against Him calls for infinite Punishment

Infinite punishment for sins committed in a finite lifetime is not consistent with any definition of justice, love or even fairness I am aware of. UNLESS - If that infinite punishment means "cease to exist" or "destroyed", then I don't see a problem.

The problem arises with the idea that all souls are eternal and therefore cannot really be "destroyed" but only "infinitely punished" - which by this definition means some sort of living regenerative death - for all eternity - for the iniquities committed in a finite lifetime.

It's not even payback 7 fold. It's payback eternityXeternity to the power of eternity if we are talking punishment in the sense of suffering for souls that cannot die.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I personally like N.T. Wright's view on Hell...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op0BbwS47CE

 

[Rajni]

How big part idea of hell plays in your religiousness?

It doesn't, anymore. Thank goodness.

I mean, I can't definitively say "There is no hell" because
I haven't searched every nook and cranny of the entire
universe to confirm its nonexistence. But the
mainstream concept of hell, along with the mainstream
supposed reasons for its existence—*that* I will
question.

- How you manage to fit the idea of loving God and hellfire together? Is it possible?

Only by redefining the purpose and/or the nature of
hellfire. I mean, it could be one of those "hurts so good"
scenarios resulting from being in God's presence, where
the fire of His love just has that effect on some souls until
they acclimate to it.

- If you have changed your beliefs one way or another about this at some point in your life, want to share something about that?

Long story short, a verse I had read dozens of times
before—1 Corinthians 15:22 —suddenly jumped out at me
one day and, after doing further looking into it, my
beliefs were permanently changed. Here we are 9 years
later, and I still haven't come across an argument in favor
of hell that held any water (and they're redundant now,
so I think I've exhausted them all at this point). For my part,
my view of God's competence in carrying out His intended
mission is what pulls the rug out from under the traditional
hell concept. The God I worship simply doesn't need the
standard-issue hell-package.


-

 

[Rhamiel]

And that is why I like and respect you in spite of our differing opinions on this, Rhamiel. You seem to think it is the natural consequence, thus God is not the one doing the sending to hell, but at the same time He allows you to reject him. So at least you never sounded sadistic or smug about putting forth this teaching. You just think that that's how it is; that if one rejects God, he still has to live forever somewhere, and thus hell can be the only other place to allow for one's separation from God. Hopefully I am understanding you right, that that is basically how you see it.

that is how I see it
we can either be with God, or we can not be with God

humans are made in the Image of God as stated in the Creation Story in Genesis (probably else where in scripture too but I am too lazy to look it up lol)
so I do not really see destruction as an option, for God to wipe away something that was made in His Image is a disservice to His own majesty and glory

Vlad, each sin does have finite consequences
if you rob a person who has $20, the finite consequence is that you owe that guy $20

but like I stated before, besides being an offence against the person you robbed from, it is also breaking a commandment that God gave to us, an offence against an infinite being demands infinite payment to make it equal

that is why Jesus came and died for us on the Cross
His sacrifice was of infinite worth
if lesser sacrifices could have satisfied justice, why not just keep the Old Covenant with a Temple and the sacrifice of sheep and doves and oxen?
because those sacrifices could never go all the way, they were finite sacrifices meant to take away a crimes that demanded infinite punishment
only the sacrifice of an Infinite Being (the Person of Jesus Christ who is true God and true Man) could pay the price
but those who do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross, they still have an infinite debt that justice demands payment for

 

[Vlad The Exhaler]

Vlad, each sin does have finite consequences
if you rob a person who has $20, the finite consequence is that you owe that guy $20

but like I stated before, besides being an offence against the person you robbed from, it is also breaking a commandment that God gave to us, an offence against an infinite being demands infinite payment to make it equal

Doesn't the bible teach that the thief must pay back 7 fold, not an equal amount? Or perhaps it's 3 fold, memory fails me on this point.

How you are using the word "infinite" is inconsistent with what it's being compared to.

God may be without beginning or end, and the commandment "do not steal, murder etc" apply for all time to all finite beings,

But that is the point - we are finite. We live in time. We have a beginning and an end. Sins committed in a finite life also do not "live on forever" - they are committed within time.

Therefore - it is inconsistent that any punishment for finite crimes be infinite or timeless.

To use an analogy from our finite perspective:

A man steals $1000 from his neighbor. He is caught, tried, and the judge sentences him to 1 year in prison.

A year later, he is free. However - the law against stealing was in effect long before he broke it, and will be in effect long after he committed this crime.

If we are to use the same comparison in terms of time or relative to time in some fashion - then by the argument you are using the man caught stealing should be punished for as long as there is a law against stealing in the land.

 

[Nanopants]

Even as the OT depicted God, it wasn't an infinite penalty for a finite offense. It was "eye for an eye." Injustice was explicitly denounced as something hated by God in the Mosaic law.

 

[Nanopants]

Doesn't the bible teach that the thief must pay back 7 fold, not an equal amount? Or perhaps it's 3 fold, memory fails me on this point.

It was a proverb, not a rule that you're recalling. It talks about how nobody hates a thief, but when he's caught he has to pay back more than he stole, kind of as a fact of life.

 

[Nanopants]

I personally like N.T. Wright's view on Hell...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op0BbwS47CE

I've seen some of the Western artwork he talks about, and I have to say that the "divisive" qualities of the judgment reflect the same scenario described in the Gospels. Most of what he says seems reasonable though, especially on the excessive level of detail attributed to hell in the West, but honestly he lost me with purgatory and paradise where he says that paradise is not the final destination. Here's an excerpt from a saint which I found to be helpful. It struck me as being exactly how I read the scenario in scripture when I discovered it:

Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in limited degree they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise.

​

That was a bit from On the Incarnation, written by Athanasius who is arguably the chief figure who drove the establishment of Trinitarian Christianity as we know it today.