Hell

[SarahsKnight]

Hah, I see what you did there, Matt. Still, we should set the example and forgive Driscoll seventy times seven just as Jesus said for all of his antics. I know it's hip to bash on him because he was one of those charismatically crazy types, but, you know, I actually found it amazing how humble he seemed during that apology he made to his church some time ago when he resigned and asked forgiveness over that plagarism and online name-calling stuff. Maybe he's improving his character lately, which is good.

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Amen to that. We are none good, in that we cannot possibly be good enough to live up to God's righteous standard, so we should not brag at all. And God forgive us if we do.

I used to believe in hell when I was a child and a teenager.

Sometimes the fear was too much. Eventually I grew out of it. Now I find the idea of hell to be silly.

My father always told me 90%-95% of humanity was going to burn in hell.

MehGuy, you're right. If that's what a lot of Christians believe, then, well, it's not much of a "victory over evil", is it?

 

[SnowyMacie]

Hah, I see what you did there, Matt. Still, we should set the example and forgive Driscoll seventy times seven just as Jesus said for all of his antics. I know it's hip to bash on him because he was one of those charismatically crazy types, but, you know, I actually found it amazing how humble he seemed during that apology he made to his church some time ago when he resigned and asked forgiveness over that plagarism and online name-calling stuff. Maybe he's improving his character lately, which is good.

My opinion of him has changed greatly in the past year, I think that was a wake-up call for him. Mark Driscoll is actually in the documentary.

Sorry I thought womens underwear causes murderous thoughts. My underwear is blue, but it might actually be baby blue from the girls section and some cruel person put it on the guys rack.

No, they really don't. Most guys who wear women's underwear probably either do it for some sexual reason or they find it more comfortable.


Most people don't have murderous thoughts. In fact, the majority of homicides are second degree, meaning not premeditated.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Do not fool yourself into annihilationist thinking or that G-d does not send workers of evil to hell. He does. And Jesus is known throughout the spiritual world as a torturer of those who practise evil.

No, workers of evil die according to the Bible. There's a difference. In fact the only time I believe the penalty for unbeief was worded as "going into hell" instead of death, destruction, or perishing (obvious words, there, I would think) is when Jesus spoke of it a few times throughout the Gospels. And the word hell is also an obvious mistranslation, used to vaguely cover four other Greek and Hebrew words that actually don't carry the appearance of eternal conscious torment (except fo rmaybe the fourth, Tartaroo).

(And yet even knowing this, there are still KJV-Onlyists running around claiming it's the 100% accurate translation of God's Word. It's amazing.)

 

[redblue22]

Hell is For Real. I think a book by that title would not be as popular. I sometimes wonder if hell is a symbol, a symbol of something far worse.

Sometimes we are tempted, but temptation is not wrong. Overcoming a temptation is praiseworthy. Jesus was tempted to worship Satan. Thinking something does not make it wrong to think. Even were a thought wrong, a lack of empathy or love would be worse.

.

 

[Nanopants]

I sometimes wonder about sects that are so focused on hell and torment, if much of anything would be left if that part of their religion were removed.

I also wonder about how this thread became a conversation about wearing women's underwear.

 

[JackofSpades]

Most people don't accept my testimony. Actually, to date nobody really ever has. I prayed to God once upon a time to show me the truth no matter how much it hurt me, two days later I had something like a hemorrhagic stroke, and in the midst of fear and panic, I was driven to flee hundreds of miles away into the desert for a week where I saw some amazing things and thought I was going to die. Eventually, I came to see that my prayer was answered. In short, I gave up my life.

Do you mean that nobody has actually believed your conversion story to be true? I find it quite odd if nobody has believed it.

I have no fundamental reason to doubt that all of the details you've told in this thread actually happened to you. Of course I can never be fully sure what truely happened to someone else, but you know, on a "reasonably plausible" level, it seems to be very well possible.

Am I missunderstanding somehow what you mean by "accepting"?

 

[Nanopants]

Do you mean that nobody has actually believed your conversion story to be true? I find it quite odd if nobody has believed it.

I have no fundamental reason to doubt that all of the details you've told in this thread actually happened to you. Of course I can never be fully sure what truely happened to someone else, but you know, on a "reasonably plausible" level, it seems to be very well possible.

Am I missunderstanding somehow what you mean by "accepting"?

No, not really. But not accepting would include going a step further in my opinion, as in rejecting me as some sort of a non-believer, which has happened on more than one occasion.

 

[r0keye]

Here's a quick question. You don't have to answer but it's something to think about. Let's say there's a line in the sand and God says "don't cross the line," but someone's toe slips over. Would the just thing be to horribly and incessantly beat that individual, or is that injustice, which is synonymous with iniquity?

If that's justice, then may as well heat up the furnace and throw me in. That's not the God described by the prophets.

The key thing here is motive. Was the person standing right next to the line when their toe slipped over, saying "haha, look how close I can get". As a teenager my girlfriend and I used to justify our sexual immorality by saying things like " its not actually sex if her hymen is still intact afterwards ". This is how deceiving the enemy is.

Were they gazing at the line imagining what it would be like if their toe went over?

Eve was staring at the forbidden fruit when the serpent tempted her. Adam was right there with her..

Or did they go over the line because someone pushed them over? That is why only God can justly judge, he sees the motivations and the events leading up to any sin.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Do not fool yourself into annihilationist thinking or that G-d does not send workers of evil to hell. He does. And Jesus is known throughout the spiritual world as a torturer of those who practise evil.

As Sarahsknight said, the only times Hell, whatever the heck it actually is, is mentioned as the result of unbelief instead of death/perishing/destruction/etc. is the few times Jesus mentions. As a stated, it's a mistranslation of Gehenna, the old Jerusalem city dump, that in their minds, would be synonymous with destruction. The other times it is mention in scripture are also mistranslations of 1) Sheol - No real description of anywhere, typically understood to be similar to the Greek underworld. 2) The actual Greek underworld - A very neutral place, not really Heaven or Hell. 3) Tartarus - Also from Greek mythology, pretty much the Greek Hell.
Our idea of Hell probably is most influenced by Zoroastrianism, as well as some Greek.
Also, most annihilationists do believe in Hell and that there is some sort of tormet there, the only difference is that it is not eternal (in the sense of everlasting). That also brings me to another point, the Greek word that gets translated to eternal is aionion, the same word we get our word "eon" from does not actually mean, but more closely sort of "an indefinite amount of time".

 

[Nanopants]

The key thing here is motive. Was the person standing right next to the line when their toe slipped over, saying "haha, look how close I can get". As a teenager my girlfriend and I used to justify our sexual immorality by saying things like " its not actually sex if her hymen is still intact afterwards ". This is how deceiving the enemy is.

Were they gazing at the line imagining what it would be like if their toe went over?

Eve was staring at the forbidden fruit when the serpent tempted her. Adam was right there with her..

Or did they go over the line because someone pushed them over? That is why only God can justly judge, he sees the motivations and the events leading up to any sin.

Sure, motive is important in determining if one is guilty or not, since an accident is not even the same sort of crime as an intentional rule violation, but even if it's intentional that doesn't change my argument. Say the rule is "do not steal," but someone intentionally steals food. Does it make sense to say that justice is then to beat that individual horribly and mercilessly, way beyond the severity of a transgression? NO. If that were so then killing people for the slightest wrongs would be justified, and it is not, especially since God commanded mercy. To do so would be to commit an evil act.

 

[redblue22]

if one lived life such that one doesn't feel a need for Christ, why depend on him?

 

[JackofSpades]

No, not really. But not accepting would include going a step further in my opinion, as in rejecting me as some sort of a non-believer, which has happened on more than one occasion.

Ugh, really odd, escpecially if you meant literally "nobody" to date. When I used to be around with Charismatic Christians, your story would have fit right in with stories some people had there. Of course it's more dramatic than average one, but yeah.

I don't see any reason why Christians would reject it ^^ Unless you have first offended them somehow like refusing to believe in some dogmatic detail that is important to their denomination. I would assume that if you posted it on Spirit-filled section on CF, they wouldn't have a huge problem with it.

Of course none of my business who gets nominated as "proper Christian", but this really made me wonder since I can't see why would it be so controversial.

 

[Messy]

Sure, motive is important in determining if one is guilty or not, since an accident is not even the same sort of crime as an intentional rule violation, but even if it's intentional that doesn't change my argument. Say the rule is "do not steal," but someone intentionally steals food. Does it make sense to say that justice is then to beat that individual horribly and mercilessly, way beyond the severity of a transgression? NO. If that were so then killing people for the slightest wrongs would be justified, and it is not, especially since God commanded mercy. To do so would be to commit an evil act.

It Says the soul That sins shall die. We died with Christ. If you reject His offer willingly How else can He save you? In order to be with Him you must be totally Holy which is impossible without His offer. Otherwise someone runs from Him.

 

[Nanopants]

It Says the soul That sins shall die. We died with Christ. If you reject His offer willingly How else can He save you? In order to be with Him you must be totally Holy which is impossible without His offer. Otherwise someone runs from Him.

I understand, but "holy" cannot refer to the character of a person who desires to or actually does kill people for the slightest offenses (iow to find an excuse to murder them).

 

[Messy]

I understand, but "holy" cannot refer to the character of a person who desires to or actually does kill people for the slightest offenses (iow to find an excuse to murder them).

Well He did. He had us die with Christ. An offense can be minor to us but not to Him. Adam only ate an Apple or an orange or whatever.

 

[Nanopants]

Well He did. He had us die with Christ. An offense can be minor to us but not to Him. Adam only ate an Apple or an orange or whatever.

If we're to be holy, it's because He is holy, and we're to be holy as He is holy. Does that mean we should want to kill people for the slightest of offenses? If we judge by the law, that is a violation of the law.

David wrote: "unto the merciful You will be merciful" and Christ reiterated by saying "blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy." But some people ignore the word of God. Why would this be unless we were judged by the law, the word of God, which is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart?

 

[Nanopants]

Also keep in mind that while the crucifixion was the will and plan of God, that doesn't detract from the evil done to Christ, by men who used the law as justification to murder Him. In effect they used their "knowledge" of evil, as a basis with which to judge, slander, and then kill Christ.

Adam didn't merely eat a fruit; according to Genesis, he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To say he fell away from God because he "crossed a line" is an over-simplification.

 

[SnowyMacie]

if one lived life such that one doesn't feel a need for Christ, why depend on him?

I don't need Hell to feel a need for Christ. Jesus is my Lord, savior, and teacher, how I could I not feel a need for him?

 

[SarahsKnight]

Exactly, Matt. We don't need to believe in eternal torment in order to feel the need for Him.

 

[Messy]

If we're to be holy, it's because He is holy, and we're to be holy as He is holy. Does that mean we should want to kill people for the slightest of offenses? If we judge by the law, that is a violation of the law.

David wrote: "unto the merciful You will be merciful" and Christ reiterated by saying "blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy." But some people ignore the word of God. Why would this be unless we were judged by the law, the word of God, which is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart?

Oh yes, I don't think I understood what you wanted to say. I thought you said it wasn't holy from God to have us die. That was a protection otherwise we couldn't be reconciled.