Hell

[he-man]

No it does not describe a death. That is an inference from a negative statement "shall not be hurt by the second death." . We know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death. In Rev 19:20, 20:10 three living beings; the beast, the false prophet, and the devil, one the false prophet is a person, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If God's power pervades His entire universe, where does that leave room for any lake of fire (eternal punishment) from the presence of God on the new earth???

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

the second death—"the lake of fire." "The death in life of the lost, as contrasted with the life in death of the saved" [TRENCH].

"The life of the damned is death" [AUGUSTINE].
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown

γεεννα Μκ 9¨45, Rec. Gehenna, [V. Swete on Mk 9:45] a valley W. and S.of Jerusalem, which as the site of fire-worship from the time of Ahaz,
was desecrated by Josiah and became a dumping-place for the offal of the city. Later, the name was used as a symbol of the place of future
punishment, as in NT : Mt 5:29- 30, 10:28, Mk 9:43. 45,47 Lk 12:5, Ja 3:6, Mt 522 1819, prob. with ref. to fires of Moloch ; Page 89

δικη, -ης,η, [in LXX for ] 1. custom. 2, right. 3. a judicial hearing ; hence its result, the execution of a sentence,
-punishment: δ. τινειν, 2 Th 1:9. Ju 7. . Personified (cf. Lat. Justitia), justice, vengeance : Ac 28:4 Page 117

&#954;&#959;&#955;&#945;&#950;&#969; (<&#954;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962;, docked), [in LXX : Da 6:12 (and freq.), 1. to curtail, dock, prune.
2. to check, restrain. 3. to chastise, correct, punish : pass., 2 Pe 2:9; mid., cause to be punished: Ac 4:21. Page 252
Abbot-Smith Lexicon

1:9 who shall pay the penalty [of] everlasting destruction from [the] presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]

1:9 They will undergo the penalty <5099> of eternal <166> destruction <3639>, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength,

In this passage the word destruction is qualified. It is " destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power, " at his second coming, in the new eon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. In neither case is &#945;&#969;&#769;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; to be interpreted as everlasting or endless. Vincent: 2Th 1:9

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Timothew

It actually does describe a second death for those who are not victorious.
thanatou means death, deuterou means "the second one".

Death number one is the death a person has when they are struck by lightning or a Mack Truck. Or however the person dies, a heart attack. A Grand Piano falling on them from a 10 story building...You get the picture.

The resurrection follows this.

Death number two is when they stand before Jesus Christ on Judgment Day and are sentenced to death as the wages of their sin. Those who are in Christ will not be harmed by this second death, as we all are resurrected to eternal life.
​

Originally Posted by Der Alter

No it does not describe a death. That is an inference from a negative statement "shall not be hurt by the second death."
​

How does it not describe a death when it specifically says those who overcome shall not be hurt by the second death?

It absolutely describes a death. The second death.
Reread the verse.

That is what I would think.



.

 

[BukiRob]

How does it not describe a death when it specifically says those who overcome shall not be hurt by the second death?

It absolutely describes a death. The second death.
Reread the verse.

Brother you are wasting your time with this one..... there are those who cling to the traditions of man rather than the truth of scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

How does it not describe a death when it specifically says those who overcome shall not be hurt by the second death?

It absolutely describes a death. The second death.
Reread the verse.

That is what I would think..

It absolutely does not describe a second death. It may imply a second death and someone might infer a second death but it does not positively state that anyone will die a second time. As a matter of fact Rev 20;10 shows us taht being thrown into the LOF does not result in death at all.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

If we listen to the Hell:no! crowd anything, anyone thrown into the LOF will be instantly destroyed but in this vs. three living beings, one the false prophet is a person, they do not die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[FredVB]

Death, in Yahweh God's word, doesn't mean extinction of consciousness, it just doesn't. Neither does coming to destruction mean annihilation. It can't. Verses that speak of the death, and destruction, in terms of the souls of sinners, do not do away with verses showing that they mean something otherwise, and so death is only a physical event which comes to a body in this world, and the second death is the finality of not experiencing yet the judgment which must come. The multiple verses that I previously posted in 407 in this thread show that. Another interpretation violates those Bible verses. Consciousness does continue beyond death, as shown. It would mean finding another interpretation for anywhere that forever and eternal are meant, instead of seeing death and destruction don't just mean extinction of consciousness and annihilation.

Only Christ could pay for sin with his atonement for believers who are his followers. It was only possible with him with his infinite value and being clean and pure of any ungodliness, through all his testing. Though there is wishful thinking that torment from just judgment would end very soon, that would only mean sin was paid for then, and that just can't ever happen. It is only possible through Christ, with that possibility made available in this life.

 

[Der Alte]

Don't be appalled, learn.

Nothing to learn from you. I already know Rom 6:23 and I know that you are going to repeat it ad infinitum and ignore every other verse.

I'm not saying that the obvious use of figurative language in verse 8 PROVES that verse 9 is also figurative. I'm saying that verse 9 doesn't prove that the dead are conscious in hell, because Isaiah was known to use figurative language. We don't know if verse 9 was figurative or literal. We do know that verse 8 is figurative, unless trees can really talk. So while Isaiah 14:9 doesn't prove that dead people really are dead, it also doesn't prove that dead people really are alive. So don't call this argument illogical. Isaiah 14:9 doesn't prove that the dead are alive and in torment in hell. Do you understand now?

There are only two choices Isaiah 14:9 is literal or it is figurative. If you cannot prove it is figurative then it is literal. You have already acknowledged that vs. 8 does not prove vs. 9 is also figurative. Further there is a similar passage in Ezekiel 32:21-25, 31-32 and there are no inanimate objects speaking, moving, etc. which could be used to muddy the water.

 

[Timothew]

Nothing to learn from you. I already know Rom 6:23 and I know that you are going to repeat it ad infinitum and ignore every other verse.



There are only two choices Isaiah 14:9 is literal or it is figurative. If you cannot prove it is figurative then it is literal. You have already acknowledged that vs. 8 does not prove vs. 9 is also figurative. Further there is a similar passage in Ezekiel 32:21-25, 31-32 and there are no inanimate objects speaking, moving, etc. which could be used to muddy the water.

Since you can't prove Isaiah 14:9 is literal or figurative, it fails as proof that the lost are really conscious in hell. I know that you THINK that you have nothing to learn from me. It is people who think that they know it all who need to learn the most.

But as for whether Isaiah 14 is literal or figurative, Look at verse 4. "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon". This is not God's description of living people in hell. This is a taunt taken up against the King of Babylon. Throughout it describes his death. But you know it all. You have nothing to learn.

According to you, the Isaiah passage flip flops from figurative to absolutely literal in the space of one verse. Come on, do you really expect me to believe that? From talking trees in verse 8, to absolute truth about moving people in hell in verse 9. But I'll play your game. Since you can't prove that verse 8 is figurative, it has to be literal. Golly, trees can talk. Verse 8 proves that. I'll admit that verse 9 proves that dead people are really alive in hell, but then you have to admit that verse 8 proves that trees can really talk.
Don't give me a SPAM fig copout and try to say that trees can't talk, because the Bible says that they can.

You don't even take the Bible in the literal sense as you claim you do. I know that you don't take Romans 6:23 literally. I know that you don't take John 3:16 literally, or you would believe as I do. You take literally the symbolic passages that agree with you, and you take symbolically the literal passages that disagree with you. You read your doctrine into scripture, and decide whether a passage is true or not based on whether it agrees with your doctrine. Eisegesis.

 

[he-man]

There are only two choices Isaiah 14:9 is literal or it is figurative. Further there is a similar passage in Ezekiel 32:21-25, 31-32 and there are no inanimate objects speaking, moving, etc. which could be used to muddy the water.

There is no room for a "Fallen Angel" in this world or the world to come! 2CO 4:4

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There is no unambiguous reference to the Devil in the Torah, the Prophets, or the Writings.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Carus P. History of the Devil and the Idea of Evil[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Daemons are not mentioned in the canonical books of the Old Test., unless (with many interpreters) we understand "the host of the high ones" in Isa. 24, 21 [the kings of the earth, comp. Dan. 8. 8), the &#8220;he goat&#8221;] (comp. Isa. 14, 12), and interpret the whole passage as referring to the punishment [of the King of Babylon]. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]In the A&#961;ocrypha, the old Hebrew notion of Jehovah's angels who allot disaster occurs not partially, and in the case mishap over takes the enemies of the pious, the angels are alluded to as Auxiliaries and friends of the latter (2 &#924;acc. 15, 23 sq.), although we may search in vain such passages for a single mention of daemons. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif](in as much as from the hand of God only good can come, but against him, the Creator of the universe, no opposing being could originally exist) ; but through their own fault they fell (John 8, 44; 2 Pet. 2, 4; Jude 6);when Christ shall appear to overthrow the kingdom of [death] (1 Cor. 15, 26; Heb. 2, 14; 1 John 2, 8). SEE Winer, 2, 385 [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Lucifer[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Isaiah 14:12 addresses the conquered king of Babylon as Lucifer &#8220;How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!&#8221; This verse was interpreted by early Christians as referring to Satan. The name originally refers to the planet we call Venus; but because of its use in this verse has come to be connected with the tradition of Satan&#8217;s fall from Heaven.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Reading Isa 14:4, "That you shall take up this proverb against the **king of Babylon,** and say, How has the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!", it becomes clear that this is the king of Babylon and his nation that is being spoken of here. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]While this mythological information is available to scholars today via translated Babylonian cuneiform text taken from clay tablets, it was not as readily available at the time of the Latin translation of the Bible. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Thus, early Christian tradition interpreted the passage as a reference to the moment Satan was thrown from Heaven. Lucifer became another name for Satan and has remained so due to Christian dogma and popular tradition. [/FONT]
[/FONT]
In the same circumstances of willful rebellion and obstinate unbelief; and the great God of heaven and earth is he who judicially blinds their eyes; makes their hearts fat, i.e. stupid; gives them the spirit of slumber: and bows down their back, apostle means the true God by the words the god of this world. that by the God of this world the supreme Being is meant, who in his judgment gave over the minds of the unbelieving Jews to spiritual darkness, so that destruction came upon them to the uttermost

Timothy 1:17, God himself is called&#964;&#969; &#948;&#949; &#946;&#945;&#963;&#953;&#955;&#949;&#953; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#969;&#957;, the King of the WORLD; what we call King eternal; but here it evidently means him who governs both worlds, and rules in time and eternity.

Some, and particularly the ancient fathers, have connected and have read the verse: But God hath blinded the minds of the unbelievers of this world, Theophylact, and Augustine, all plead for the above meaning; and St. Augustine says that it was the opinion of almost all the ancients
The Adam Clarke Commentary
http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=004

Deu 7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[CherubRam]

It absolutely does not describe a second death. It may imply a second death and someone might infer a second death but it does not positively state that anyone will die a second time. As a matter of fact Rev 20;10 shows us taht being thrown into the LOF does not result in death at all.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

If we listen to the Hell:no! crowd anything, anyone thrown into the LOF will be instantly destroyed but in this vs. three living beings, one the false prophet is a person, they do not die they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You have one verse that says the people will be tortured for an eternity, all of the other verses on the matter do not say that. The bible was canonized by the Catholic Church.

 

[Aldebaran]

You have one verse that says the people will be tortured for an eternity, all of the other verses on the matter do not say that. The bible was canonized by the Catholic Church.

What do these verses tell you?

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

 

[CherubRam]

What do these verses tell you?

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

Theophilus wrote that story, what do we know about that person and what he believed?

Theophilus is the name or honorary title of the person to whom the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles are addressed (Luke 1:3, Acts 1:1)

It is unanimously agreed that both Luke and Acts were originally written in Koine Greek, and that "Theophilos," as it appears therein, means friend of God or (be)loved by God or loving God in the Greek language.

No one knows the true identity of Theophilus who wrote the story, and there are more than several conjectures and traditions around an identity.

In all there are about eight traditions based upon that story. Again I say: Hell has never been a doctrinal belief in Judaism.

Don't you think if Yahshua was to introduce a new doctrine that he would at least explain the story?

 

[Der Alte]

You have one verse that says the people will be tortured for an eternity, all of the other verses on the matter do not say that. The bible was canonized by the Catholic Church.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! I have posted the verses plural which support eternal punishment, several times. See [post=65877433]Post #4[/post] this thread. Which have never been addressed or refuted. There was no Catholic Church headed by a Pope in Rome until 1075 when the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped authoty of the universal church by issuing 27 Dictatus Papae, Papal Dictates, including these,

2. That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
3. That he alone can depose or reinstate bishops.

8. That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
9. That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
10. That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
11. That this is the only name in the world.​

Until this time all presiding Bishops used the title "Pope." This decree ordered that only the Roman bishop could use the title. Prior to this no one bishop had any more authority than any other. The NT was canonized 600-700 years before 1075.

 

[CherubRam]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! I have posted the verses plural which support eternal punishment, several times. See [post=65877433]Post #4[/post] this thread. Which have never been addressed or refuted. There was no Catholic Church headed by a Pope in Rome until 1075 when the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped authoty of the universal church by issuing 27 Dictatus Papae, Papal Dictates, including these,

2. That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
3. That he alone can depose or reinstate bishops.

8. That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
9. That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
10. That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
11. That this is the only name in the world.​

Until this time all presiding Bishops used the title "Pope." This decree ordered that only the Roman bishop could use the title. Prior to this no one bishop had any more authority than any other. The NT was canonized 600-700 years before 1075.

Gehenna is parabolic of eternal destruction. Christ came speaking in parables.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] punishment:

 

[Der Alte]

Since you can't prove Isaiah 14:9 is literal or figurative, it fails as proof that the lost are really conscious in hell. I know that you THINK that you have nothing to learn from me. It is people who think that they know it all who need to learn the most.

But as for whether Isaiah 14 is literal or figurative, Look at verse 4. "you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon". This is not God's description of living people in hell. This is a taunt taken up against the King of Babylon. Throughout it describes his death. But you know it all. You have nothing to learn.

According to you, the Isaiah passage flip flops from figurative to absolutely literal in the space of one verse. Come on, do you really expect me to believe that? From talking trees in verse 8, to absolute truth about moving people in hell in verse 9. But I'll play your game. Since you can't prove that verse 8 is figurative, it has to be literal. Golly, trees can talk. Verse 8 proves that.

When God said that He would make Israel a &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500;/mashal Eze 12:22, 1 Kin 9:7, did they become fictional? &#1502;&#1513;&#1473;&#1500; is the word "proverb" in Isa 14:4. Look who is flip flopping. Earlier in this same thread you made this contradictory statement.

I'm not saying that the obvious use of figurative language in verse 8 PROVES that verse 9 is also figurative. I'm saying that verse 9 doesn't prove that the dead are conscious in hell, because Isaiah was known to use figurative language. We don't know if verse 9 was figurative or literal. We do know that verse 8 is figurative, unless trees can really talk. So while Isaiah 14:9 doesn't prove that dead people really are dead, it also doesn't prove that dead people really are alive. So don't call this argument illogical. Isaiah 14:9 doesn't prove that the dead are alive and in torment in hell. Do you understand now?

Can you make up your mind? When are you going to realize that one figure of speech in any verse or passage does NOT make anything else in the verse/passage figurative? Jesus was an actual, living person but He said He was a door, bread, light, a hen, etc.

I'll admit that verse 9 proves that dead people are really alive in hell, but then you have to admit that verse 8 proves that trees can really talk.
Don't give me a SPAM fig copout and try to say that trees can't talk, because the Bible says that they can.

Petulance does not prove anything but desperation. Why can't you deal with Ezekiel 32:21-25, 31-32? Where are the talking trees so you can dismiss this passage also?

You don't even take the Bible in the literal sense as you claim you do. I know that you don't take Romans 6:23 literally. I know that you don't take John 3:16 literally, or you would believe as I do.

We know that your theology is totally bankrupt when you have to repeatedly make these false accusations. If not then you would acknowledge that I have affirmed my belief in both verses many times. For example my [post=65925505]Post #187[/post] this thread. If I can't expect any honesty and itegrity from you, only false accusations like this, can you give me any reason why I should continue to respond to you?

You take literally the symbolic passages that agree with you, and you take symbolically the literal passages that disagree with you. You read your doctrine into scripture, and decide whether a passage is true or not based on whether it agrees with your doctrine. Eisegesis.

More false accusations. I use the axiom "If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense." We know that stars don't sing and trees don't rejoice but unless you have had NDE and can tell me something different we have no 1st hand accounts which shows there is no conscious awareness after death. I remind you for the umpteenth time the Jews before and during the time of Jesus understood Isa 14:9 to be literal. Let me know about the honesty and integrity issue.

 

[Der Alte]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! I have posted the verses plural which support eternal punishment, several times. See [post=65877433]Post #4[/post] this thread. Which have never been addressed or refuted. There was no Catholic Church headed by a Pope in Rome until 1075 when the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped authoty of the universal church by issuing 27 Dictatus Papae, Papal Dictates, including these,

2. That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
3. That he alone can depose or reinstate bishops.

8. That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
9. That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
10. That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
11. That this is the only name in the world.​

Until this time all presiding Bishops used the title "Pope." This decree ordered that only the Roman bishop could use the title. Prior to this no one bishop had any more authority than any other. The NT was canonized 600-700 years before 1075.

Gehenna is parabolic of eternal destruction. Christ came speaking in parables.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] punishment:

Irrelevant! Does not address my post which refutes your previous post. This is a common ploy for those with false doctrines. Whenever scripture, as written, contradicts a pet doctrine, simply dismiss the scripture as a parable. Gehenna is not parabolic of anythiing. The Jews at the time of Jesus used it to refer to a place of eternal, unending punishment for the unrighteous. See post #4 this thread. It has NEVER been addressed or refuted.

 

[he-man]

Gehenna is parabolic of eternal destruction. Christ came speaking in parables.46 And these shall go away into everlasting [&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;/aiónion] punishment:

KOINE GREEK :
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction <G3639> from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, G3639 &#959;&#769;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#962; olethros ol'-eth-ros From &#959;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953; ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death

G3639 &#8004;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#962; &#959;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#959;&#957; destruction, ruin, desolation, annihilation, [BAG: Eternal death2Thess 1:9]; AS315; BAG566; BU221; ER564; CB Vol1: p465; CS459; KT Vol5: p168; LN173
G1842 &#949;&#958;&#959;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#949;&#965;&#952;&#951;&#963;&#949;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#7952;&#958;&#959;&#955;&#949;&#952;&#961;&#949;&#8059;&#969; destroy utterly, extermination, total destruction, annihilation, elimination; root out; Acts 3:23; BAG276; LN92; B Vol 1: p465; KT Vol5: p170;

DESTROY 251 DESTRUCTION
Mic. 5. 14 so,will I destroy thy cities.
Hag. 2. 22 will destroy the strength of the kingdoms Zech 12. 9 I will seek to destroy all the nations
46. To make desolate, &#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1501; shamem. 5.
1 Sa. 5. 6 he destroyed them, and smote them with Hos. 2. 12 I will destroy her vines, and her fig trees
47. To desolate, &#1513;&#1473;&#1502;&#1501; shamem..
Isa. 42. 14 I will destroy and devour at once
48. To loose of or away, destroy, &#945;&#960;&#959;&#955;&#955;&#965;&#956;&#953;, apollu.
Matt. 2. 13 will seek the young child to destroy him so. 28 Hear him which is able to destroy both 12. 14 against him, how they might destroy him 21.4x Re will miserably destroy those wicked 22. 7 destroyed those murderers, and burned 27.20 they should ask Barabbas, and destroy J.
Mark 1. 24 art thou come to destroy us ? I know thee 3. 6 took counsel..how they might destroy 9.22 the fire, and into the waters, to destroy 11. 18 and sought how they might destroy him 12. 9 He will come and destroy the husbandmen.

 

[BukiRob]

Death, in Yahweh God's word, doesn't mean extinction of consciousness, it just doesn't. Neither does coming to destruction mean annihilation. It can't. Verses that speak of the death, and destruction, in terms of the souls of sinners, do not do away with verses showing that they mean something otherwise, and so death is only a physical event which comes to a body in this world, and the second death is the finality of not experiencing yet the judgment which must come. The multiple verses that I previously posted in 407 in this thread show that. Another interpretation violates those Bible verses. Consciousness does continue beyond death, as shown. It would mean finding another interpretation for anywhere that forever and eternal are meant, instead of seeing death and destruction don't just mean extinction of consciousness and annihilation.

Only Christ could pay for sin with his atonement for believers who are his followers. It was only possible with him with his infinite value and being clean and pure of any ungodliness, through all his testing. Though there is wishful thinking that torment from just judgment would end very soon, that would only mean sin was paid for then, and that just can't ever happen. It is only possible through Christ, with that possibility made available in this life.

Again, you fail the most basic examination. Man is NOT immortal or an eternal being. YOu will find 0, nada, not one iota of scripture that suggests that any part of man is immortal.

What you DO find is scriptures that indicate that Yeshua grants eternal life to his own. One does NOT give something unless it is needed or required. The GIFT is eternal life. The Wages of SIN is Death.

Show me in scripture where the dead are aware of anything that is not clearly a parable. I can find MULTIPLE verses that declare that the dead know nothing.

I will side with scripture, you're welcome to the traditions of man if you choose.

The origins of eternal torment are PAGAN

 

[Der Alte]

Again, you fail the most basic examination. Man is NOT immortal or an eternal being. YOu will find 0, nada, not one iota of scripture that suggests that any part of man is immortal.

What you DO find is scriptures that indicate that Yeshua grants eternal life to his own. One does NOT give something unless it is needed or required. The GIFT is eternal life. The Wages of SIN is Death.

Show me in scripture where the dead are aware of anything that is not clearly a parable. I can find MULTIPLE verses that declare that the dead know nothing.

I will side with scripture, you're welcome to the traditions of man if you choose.

The origins of eternal torment are PAGAN

Wrong! You evidently do not know the history of the Jewish faith which you profess to follow. Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No!, view being presented in this forum is false. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

•"Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
•"the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
•"cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings supported and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, His teaching supported their teaching on hell thus their teaching was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[he-man]

Wrong! You evidently do not know the history of the Jewish faith which you profess to follow. Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No!, view being presented in this forum is false. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol.

Origins of Gehenna

Gehenna is not mentioned in the Torah and in fact does not appear in Jewish texts before the sixth century B.C.E. Nevertheless, some rabbinic texts maintain that God created Gehenna on the second day of Creation (Genesis Rabbah 4:6, 11:9). Other texts claim that Gehenna was part of God's original plan for the universe and was actually created before the Earth (Pesahim 54a; Sifre Deuteronomy 37). The concept of Gehenna was likely inspired by the biblical notion of Sheol.

For the most part the rabbis did not believe souls would be condemned to eternal punishment. . However, because the rabbis also believed that one could repent at any time, the belief in eternal damnation was not a predominant one.

Gehenna is usually located beneath the earth and a number of texts say that the unrighteous "go down to Gehenna" (Rosh HaShanah 16b; M. Avot 5:22).
Gehenna is often described as a place of fire and brimstone. "[Ordinary] fire is a sixtieth of [the fire of] Gehenna" states Berakhot 57b, while Genesis Rabbah 51:3 asks: "Why does a man's soul shrink from the odor of brimstone? Because it knows it will be judged therein in the World to Come."
Sources: "Jewish Views of the Afterlife" by Simcha Paul Raphael. Jason Aronson, Inc: Northvale, 1996.

&#12288;

 

[CherubRam]

The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.

The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.

If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. Get my point?

Romans 1:32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


Matthew 10:28
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [hell / Gehenna.
The word Gehenna is used as a parable to mean eternal destruction.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.


Job 27:8
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?


As we all know the bible uses many parables. There is no real Hell, that word was put into scriptures by the Gnostic Pagans. Words like grave, pit, and Gehenna were replaced with the word hell. Those who are condemned to destruction never return. They are cut off for all eternity, never to live again.

The number of times "Hell" appears in the English Bible
Translations


Bible Translations
Old Testament
New Testament
Total's
"Authorized" King James Version
31
23
54
New King James Version
19
13
32
American Standard Version
0
13
13
New American Standard Bible
0
13
13
Revised Standard Version
0
12
12
New Revised Standard Version
0
12
12
Revised English Bible
0
13
13
New Living Translation
0
13
13
Amplified
0
13
13
New International Version (best-selling English Bible)
0
14
14
Darby
0
12
12
New Century Version
0
12
12
Wesley's New Testament (1755)

0
0
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)

0
0
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)

0
0
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
0
0
0
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)

0
0
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
0
0
0
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
0
0
0
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)

0
0
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
0

0
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)

0
0
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)

0
0
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)

0
0
Western N.T. (1926)

0
0
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)

0
0
Concordant Literal NT (1983)

0
0
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)

0
0
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)

0
0
New American Bible (1970)
0
0
0
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
0
0
0
Tanakh. The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
0

0
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)

0
0
Christian Bible (1991)
0
0
0
World English Bible (in progress)
0
0
0
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)

0
0
0
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)

0
0
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

0
0

Hades is the Greek god of the underworld.

Hades ( /&#712;he&#618;di&#720;z/; from Greek &#8077;&#948;&#951;&#962; (older form &#7944;&#989;&#943;&#948;&#951;&#962, Had&#275;s, originally &#7949;&#953;&#948;&#951;&#962;, Haid&#275;s or &#902;&#912;&#948;&#951;&#962;, Aid&#275;s (Doric &#7944;&#912;&#948;&#945;&#962; Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive &#8077;&#948;&#959;&#965;, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.

In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.

Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: &#928;&#955;&#959;&#973;&#964;&#969;&#957;, gen.: &#928;&#955;&#959;&#973;&#964;&#969;&#957;&#959;&#962;, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.


Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.

Luke 16:23
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)


2 Peter 2:4
New International Version (NIV)

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Footnotes:
a.2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
b.2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gehenna (Greek &#947;&#941;&#949;&#957;&#957;&#945, Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: &#1490;&#1492;&#1504;&#1493;&#1501;/&#1490;&#1492;&#1504;&#1501 and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: &#1490;&#1461;&#1497;&#1488; &#1489;&#1462;&#1503;&#1470;&#1492;&#1460;&#1504;&#1465;&#1468;&#1501; or &#1490;&#1497;&#1488; &#1489;&#1503;-&#1492;&#1497;&#1504;&#1493;&#1501; one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.

In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]

In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked. This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both usually with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

English "Gehenna" represents the Greek Ge'enna (&#947;&#941;&#949;&#957;&#957;&#945 found in the New Testament, a phonetic transcription of Aramaic G&#275;hann&#257; (&#1811;&#1815;&#1826;&#1808, equivalent to the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom".

This was known in the Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom", and in the Talmud as &#1490;&#1492;&#1504;&#1501; Gehinnam or &#1490;&#1492;&#1504;&#1493;&#1501; Gehinnom.

Topheth, etymology is uncertain; the most probable connection with the root meaning is: "burning"-the "place of burning."

Catholic Gnosticism.
The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.

Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

Just a reminder.