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Der Alte

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Look at the twisty turny gymnast. Quite a show there, DA. The only real problem is the metaphysical one (non-substantive life beyond point of physical death), which is to this point only a stopping point in human logic. God does what He wants where and when He wants.

The "other hell" you contend for is your own fantasy.

Wrong as always. I backed up what I said from scripture. Try to prove me wrong. Empty accusations are meaningless.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​
 
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Der Alte

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Yahshua was a Hebrew preaching the good news about the New Covenant of Judaism, not Greek. Yahshua was speaking to Hebrews, not Greeks. You can no believe in the place called Hades without believing in the god Hades. That is where the place name comes from.

Logical fallacy! I can believe in Thieu's day [Tuesday] without believing in the god Thieu. I can believe in Wodin's day [Wednesday] without believing in the god Wodin or Odin, I can believe in Thor's day [Thursday] without believing in the god Thor, I can believe in Freya's day [Friday] without believing in the god Freya. I can believe in the month March without believing in the god Mars.

There ae many words in English which do not mean what they originally meant.

There is no such name as Yahshua! That is a false name made up by people with no knowledge of the Hebrew language.
 
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Okay so read this Just a few verses for correction of your thoughts:
Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
The allegoric structure of the Bible arises as a logical, coherent organization of meaning from Scripture and establishes its own rules of interpretation. More accurately, God has woven into His word the proper rules by which He intends the Bible to be understood. This structure is automatically inimical to the literalist, whose mind is set on standards for interpretation that are applied by man to the Scriptures. This is not to say man has no grasp of truth to apply to interpreting the Bible, but that the move over the centuries away from trying to understand the symbolism of God's word in favor of the establishment of secular rules of interpretation necessarily keeps us from the deeper truths of Scripture.

God orchestrated the Bible such that this allegoric structure is applied congruously across its breadth and width, from OT to New. Once understood, it leads us to where and how the allegoric may be applied in such a way that tensions are resolved--as opposed to the human regulations for interpretation in the literal, which leads us only to meaning allowed within the confines of its rules.

Literalists of various persuasions seem largely unaware--or stubbornly indifferent--to the tensions their doctrines create. Have you ever noticed that Eternal Torment, Annihilationism and Universalism can all three find a sufficient basis or starting point for making an interpretive argument? But each, carried out according to popular literalist interpretive standards, is unable to seal the deal.

The removal of tensions can never be arrived at in any of the three using the primarily literal reading of the Bible. The Annihilationist will ignore universalist and eternal torment passages, universalist will ignore their opponents and so on for the ETer.

I'll try to condense into an example why the allegorical is the superior interpretive standard.

Most arguments between the three rest on passages that are clearly metaphoric. in nature. This automatically focuses Jesus' teachings, which are pretty much all symbolic, as are the prophets, Revelation, Song of Solomon, Job, etc. but the structure applies to at least portions of other books as well.

Jesus is speaking figuratively when He teaches about sheep and goats in Mat 25. Taken as an isolated example, it seems logical to apply this to individuals. But it's not isolated. There are wheat and tares in Mat 13 along with seed sown and good and bad ground, good figs and rotten figs in Jer 24, the cutting off of righteous from unrighteous in Ezek 21, the removal of bad branches from the vine row in Jer 5, distinction between green tree and dry tree in Ezek 17 and Luke 23, the separation, parts cut off and remaining parts brought through the fire of refinement in Zech 13, and many more throughout the Bible sufficient to suggest the legitimacy of the principle that evil is separated and destroyed from the individual.

The distinction of separation by various forms of destruction of the unrighteous and salvation of the righteous is established many times throughout the Bible. Now turn to the principle established in Gen 18 where God shows in symbolic form the supervising principle of His justice: God will not destroy a whole in which some good exists. Note the same underlying structure, the separation of righteous from unrighteous.

Also, the allegoric structure is well known and understood: literal elements--people, places, circumstances and the human actions and reactions that take place in it--are arranged in ways that point to higher meaning. Even though the basic organization is unquestionable, literalists on theology boards refuse to even discuss its relevance as a literary method. I suggest this is because literalism has been a cancer in the intellectual operation of religious man since forever. Many literalists fear that if they concede that this structure exists, it will weaken their own position--which brings to bear the question of intellectual honesty.

In exerting its harsh rules, the literal doesn't allow the literalist to "see" this obvious and coherent allegoric structure--much less acknowledge its obvious supporting tenets. This bears a striking resemblance to the loathing the atheist has for the supernatural, this enmity exhibited in their "hiding" in matter to avoid the light of prescriptive truth.

In this system, it becomes apparent (meaning the concept shows it is coherent, bears unity with the rest of the structure, is harmonious and does not contradict) that God's wrath can on its highest level be read as applying fragmentally to bad elements within each person, already established in dozens of passages throughout Scripture as noted above, while His decrees of blessing apply to the whole individual. This is a congruous part of the overarching allegoric pattern.

Hence, instead of interpreting everything literally--as applying to individuals, which is shown to violate the perfection of God's justice in Gen 18--the Bible as a spiritual book has to be interpreted according to the right admixture of its literal and allegoric meaning. Take your Psa 1:4-6 example, where the sinners who will not stand in the congregation of the righteous, when allegoric and literal are properly joined, translates into the understanding that the stain of sin will be removed from the soul of the individual, who will stand in the righteousness of perfection. This is in accordance with Paul's distinction of the same all (interpreted literally as whole individuals)who die in Adam as the same all who will be made alive in Christ. It coheres with the glory and honor of the nations (whole individuals of all nations made pure and true) admitted into the holy city distinct from all things unclean (false portions annihilated from their souls) denied entrance to it (Rev. 21:26-27). It's simultaneously harmonious that smoke of the torment of sinners--the residue of falsity from the human soul burned up as kindling by Godly fire--is what goes up forever and ever. A parallel presentation is in Mal 4:2-3: "But for you who fear My name the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.", in which the individual restored to a true state (perfection) is likened to the skipping calf treading over the ashes of his former falsity, burned out of his soul by the same Godly fire which establishes righteousness in time in sanctification of believers as that which becomes a roaring lake of fire to false elements of unbelief in individuals who refused to conform in time.


The problem defending this position is that theology board antagonists of Biblical universalism continually use their doctrine--i.e., their literal interpretation--as "proof" that universalism is wrong. Assigning the certitude of truth to a doctrine containing many tensions is a corruption. To judge an interpretation using one's own interpretation as the very standard of truth against which all competing explication is automatically wrong is circular and demeans proper, logical argument. Each should be considered on its own merits and judged by how it stands according to proper criteria for truth instead of whether it measures up to my view.

Annihilationists frequently complain that it would be immoral for God to inflict everlasting torture on His creatures. Clark Pinnock regards the doctrine of endless punishment as "morally flawed" and a "moral enormity." If the "outrageous doctrine" of the traditionalists were true, God would be a "cruel" and "vindictive" deity. In fact, He would be "more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards...."

Indeed, the traditionalist's God is a "bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz for victims whom he does not even allow to die." bible-reasearcher.com/hell5.html #Note2
The Annihilationist does come halfway to the truth and is able to overcome the Torturer of traditional salvation, but still denies God the perfection of His justice by having Him destroy individuals in whom some good yet exists. Only the salvation of all by the methods noted above is able to wholly overcome this tension.
 
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Der Alte

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The allegoric structure of the Bible arises as a logical, coherent organization of meaning from Scripture and establishes its own rules of interpretation. More accurately, God has woven into His word the proper rules by which He intends the Bible to be understood. This structure is automatically inimical to the literalist, whose mind is set on standards for interpretation that are applied by man to the Scriptures. This is not to say man has no grasp of truth to apply to interpreting the Bible, but that the move over the centuries away from trying to understand the symbolism of God's word in favor of the establishment of secular rules of interpretation necessarily keeps us from the deeper truths of Scripture.

God orchestrated the Bible such that this allegoric structure is applied congruously across its breadth and width, from OT to New. Once understood, it leads us to where and how the allegoric may be applied in such a way that tensions are resolved--as opposed to the human regulations for interpretation in the literal, which leads us only to meaning allowed within the confines of its rules.

Literalists of various persuasions seem largely unaware--or stubbornly indifferent--to the tensions their doctrines create. Have you ever noticed that Eternal Torment, Annihilationism and Universalism can all three find a sufficient basis or starting point for making an interpretive argument? But each, carried out according to popular literalist interpretive standards, is unable to seal the deal.

The removal of tensions can never be arrived at in any of the three using the primarily literal reading of the Bible. The Annihilationist will ignore universalist and eternal torment passages, universalist will ignore their opponents and so on for the ETer.

I'll try to condense into an example why the allegorical is the superior interpretive standard.

Most arguments between the three rest on passages that are clearly metaphoric. in nature. This automatically focuses Jesus' teachings, which are pretty much all symbolic, as are the prophets, Revelation, Song of Solomon, Job, etc. but the structure applies to at least portions of other books as well.

Jesus is speaking figuratively when He teaches about sheep and goats in Mat 25. Taken as an isolated example, it seems logical to apply this to individuals. But it's not isolated. There are wheat and tares in Mat 13 along with seed sown and good and bad ground, good figs and rotten figs in Jer 24, the cutting off of righteous from unrighteous in Ezek 21, the removal of bad branches from the vine row in Jer 5, distinction between green tree and dry tree in Ezek 17 and Luke 23, the separation, parts cut off and remaining parts brought through the fire of refinement in Zech 13, and many more throughout the Bible sufficient to suggest the legitimacy [Suggest is not proof! DA]of the principle that evil is separated and destroyed from the individual.

The distinction of separation by various forms of destruction of the unrighteous and salvation of the righteous is established many times throughout the Bible. Now turn to the principle established in Gen 18 where God shows in symbolic form the supervising principle of His justice: God will not destroy a whole in which some good exists. Note the same underlying structure, the separation of righteous from unrighteous.

Also, the allegoric structure is well known and understood: literal elements--people, places, circumstances and the human actions and reactions that take place in it--are arranged in ways that point to higher meaning. Even though the basic organization is unquestionable, literalists on theology boards refuse to even discuss its relevance as a literary method. I suggest this is because literalism has been a cancer in the intellectual operation of religious man since forever. Many literalists fear that if they concede that this structure exists, it will weaken their own position--which brings to bear the question of intellectual honesty.

In exerting its harsh rules, the literal doesn't allow the literalist to "see" this obvious and coherent allegoric structure--much less acknowledge its obvious supporting tenets. This bears a striking resemblance to the loathing the atheist has for the supernatural, this enmity exhibited in their "hiding" in matter to avoid the light of prescriptive truth.

In this system, it becomes apparent (meaning the concept shows it is coherent, bears unity with the rest of the structure, is harmonious and does not contradict) that God's wrath can on its highest level be read as applying fragmentally to bad elements within each person, already established in dozens of passages throughout Scripture as noted above, while His decrees of blessing apply to the whole individual. This is a congruous part of the overarching allegoric pattern.

Hence, instead of interpreting everything literally--as applying to individuals, which is shown to violate the perfection of God's justice in Gen 18--the Bible as a spiritual book has to be interpreted according to the right admixture of its literal and allegoric meaning. Take your Psa 1:4-6 example, where the sinners who will not stand in the congregation of the righteous, when allegoric and literal are properly joined, translates into the understanding that the stain of sin will be removed from the soul of the individual, who will stand in the righteousness of perfection. This is in accordance with Paul's distinction of the same all (interpreted literally as whole individuals)who die in Adam as the same all who will be made alive in Christ. It coheres with the glory and honor of the nations (whole individuals of all nations made pure and true) admitted into the holy city distinct from all things unclean (false portions annihilated from their souls) denied entrance to it (Rev. 21:26-27). It's simultaneously harmonious that smoke of the torment of sinners--the residue of falsity from the human soul burned up as kindling by Godly fire--is what goes up forever and ever. A parallel presentation is in Mal 4:2-3: "But for you who fear My name the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.", in which the individual restored to a true state (perfection) is likened to the skipping calf treading over the ashes of his former falsity, burned out of his soul by the same Godly fire which establishes righteousness in time in sanctification of believers as that which becomes a roaring lake of fire to false elements of unbelief in individuals who refused to conform in time.

The problem defending this position is that theology board antagonists of Biblical universalism continually use their doctrine--i.e., their literal interpretation--as "proof" that universalism is wrong. Assigning the certitude of truth to a doctrine containing many tensions is a corruption. To judge an interpretation using one's own interpretation as the very standard of truth against which all competing explication is automatically wrong is circular and demeans proper, logical argument. Each should be considered on its own merits and judged by how it stands according to proper criteria for truth instead of whether it measures up to my view.

The Annihilationist does come halfway to the truth and is able to overcome the Torturer of traditional salvation, but still denies God the perfection of His justice by having Him destroy individuals in whom some good yet exists. Only the salvation of all by the methods noted above is able to wholly overcome this tension.

Evasive copout with no, zero, none evidence of any kind just unsupported opinion.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.

The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.

If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. Get my point?

Romans 1:32.
Genesis 18:25
Matthew 10:28
The word Gehenna is used as a parable to mean eternal destruction.
Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Job 27:8

As we all know the bible uses many parables. There is no real Hell, that word was put into scriptures by the Gnostic Pagans. Words like grave, pit, and Gehenna were replaced with the word hell. Those who are condemned to destruction never return. They are cut off for all eternity, never to live again.
The problem I have always had with these claims is that it relies on the mistaken notion that death, destroy, destruction can only mean annihilation/cease to exist. And that is simply not true. We do not use those words to only mean cease to exist.

A priceless painting does not need to cease to exist to be said to have been destroyed. All manner of things can happen to it that can aptly be called "destruction", yet what remains of the painting can still exist. Someone else pointed out in another thread I think that simple 8.5x11 paper torn at one corner is destroyed as far as serving the purpose for which it was made is concerned. Yet the paper still is.

If we can agree that people were created (body and soul) to love, serve and know God and that those in Hell are not serving that purpose there, then we (orthodox view of Hell) do not need to imagine those people ceasing to exist in order to refer to Hell as death, destruction and as destroying both body and soul. Just like the paper, an eternal sentence to Hell is an end to any chance that person (body and soul) can ever love, serve or know God.

That fate (Hell) is an end, a death to that purpose - which while a thing with no purpose could be consider a non-thing or no thing and far as a human (am not sure what the effect/result would be or look like or even recognizable as human); but it does not follow a such person must be rendered to nothing. Just as the sheet of paper need not be rendered to nothing to make it unusable in a copier.

In his fantasy story Tolkein's creature Gollum is no longer recognizable as the person he once was, having been altered by his relationship with evil. We are familiar with transformations that both evil and stress can cause people in this life, changes which often make them similiarly unrecognizable from the person they once were and sometimes over a relatively short time. In giving people over (in Hell) to their desire (hate, not know and not want to serve the Supreme Good), one would think that too would change a person. Tolkein's friend Lewis speculated as much in characterizing the state of people is Hell as, while still "alive" not really being human anymore, but simply "what remains".
 
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Originally Posted by DA
Because there is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support your "fragmental removal by God of false elements from the human soul." fantasy

So you're saying proper Bible interpretation hinges on "credible, verifiable, historical evidence"? So in your view, the Bible's truth is established by a preponderance of "credible, verifiable, historical evidence", i.e., by the greatest number of historical citations a particular interpretation is able to provide? Help me understand your position please.

Still waiting for an answer here DA.


Here is the answer, after two attempts to get a response:

What it does not depend on is the wild fantasies of every would be Bible scholar who comes along claiming that the church has been wrong for 2000 years +/- and that this, that or the other verse is SPAM-Fig, that is symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor or figurative, anything but literal. And it just so happens any such SPAM-Fig supports the assumptions/presuppositions of that person. As I look around I see a googol bunch of would be Bible experts claiming that all the other guys are wrong and that their leader or organization has the only true truth interpretation what the SPAM-Fig [supposedly] means, JW, LDS, SDA, UPCI, OP, WWCG, COBU, ICC, INC, UC, etc. And they all have one thing in common they cannot give any credible evidence for their "interpretation." Everything they say must be taken on faith. Eenie, meenie, minee, moe which group should I choose?

Posted previously by Der Alter:
I do indeed post with a high degree of intellectual honesty.

Because you post with a high degree of intellectual honesty, I'll assume one of the following to be true of the answer given above:
1) you didn't fully understand the question

2) I caught you at a bad time--cutting and pasting from your vast storage of the old writings of men who agree with your theology--and you misread the question. Even though it was to the point and simple to understand.

3) you misread my asking you to clarify your position that "there is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support your "fragmental removal by God of false elements from the human soul fantasy" and inadvertently thought I'd asked you to explain to me what your position does not depend on.

Again: So in your view, the Bible's truth is established by a preponderance of "credible, verifiable, historical evidence", i.e., by the greatest number of historical citations a particular interpretation is able to provide?

Is this what you see as the primary feature of proper Bible interpretation?
 
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Originally Posted by dumpsterdiver45
The allegoric structure of the Bible arises as a logical, coherent organization of meaning from Scripture and establishes its own rules of interpretation. More accurately, God has woven into His word the proper rules by which He intends the Bible to be understood. This structure is automatically inimical to the literalist, whose mind is set on standards for interpretation that are applied by man to the Scriptures. This is not to say man has no grasp of truth to apply to interpreting the Bible, but that the move over the centuries away from trying to understand the symbolism of God's word in favor of the establishment of secular rules of interpretation necessarily keeps us from the deeper truths of Scripture.

God orchestrated the Bible such that this allegoric structure is applied congruously across its breadth and width, from OT to New. Once understood, it leads us to where and how the allegoric may be applied in such a way that tensions are resolved--as opposed to the human regulations for interpretation in the literal, which leads us only to meaning allowed within the confines of its rules.

Literalists of various persuasions seem largely unaware--or stubbornly indifferent--to the tensions their doctrines create. Have you ever noticed that Eternal Torment, Annihilationism and Universalism can all three find a sufficient basis or starting point for making an interpretive argument? But each, carried out according to popular literalist interpretive standards, is unable to seal the deal.

The removal of tensions can never be arrived at in any of the three using the primarily literal reading of the Bible. The Annihilationist will ignore universalist and eternal torment passages, universalist will ignore their opponents and so on for the ETer.

I'll try to condense into an example why the allegorical is the superior interpretive standard.

Most arguments between the three rest on passages that are clearly metaphoric. in nature. This automatically focuses Jesus' teachings, which are pretty much all symbolic, as are the prophets, Revelation, Song of Solomon, Job, etc. but the structure applies to at least portions of other books as well.

Jesus is speaking figuratively when He teaches about sheep and goats in Mat 25. Taken as an isolated example, it seems logical to apply this to individuals. But it's not isolated. There are wheat and tares in Mat 13 along with seed sown and good and bad ground, good figs and rotten figs in Jer 24, the cutting off of righteous from unrighteous in Ezek 21, the removal of bad branches from the vine row in Jer 5, distinction between green tree and dry tree in Ezek 17 and Luke 23, the separation, parts cut off and remaining parts brought through the fire of refinement in Zech 13, and many more throughout the Bible sufficient to suggest the legitimacy [Suggest is not proof! DA]of the principle that evil is separated and destroyed from the individual.

The distinction of separation by various forms of destruction of the unrighteous and salvation of the righteous is established many times throughout the Bible. Now turn to the principle established in Gen 18 where God shows in symbolic form the supervising principle of His justice: God will not destroy a whole in which some good exists. Note the same underlying structure, the separation of righteous from unrighteous.

Also, the allegoric structure is well known and understood: literal elements--people, places, circumstances and the human actions and reactions that take place in it--are arranged in ways that point to higher meaning. Even though the basic organization is unquestionable, literalists on theology boards refuse to even discuss its relevance as a literary method. I suggest this is because literalism has been a cancer in the intellectual operation of religious man since forever. Many literalists fear that if they concede that this structure exists, it will weaken their own position--which brings to bear the question of intellectual honesty.

In exerting its harsh rules, the literal doesn't allow the literalist to "see" this obvious and coherent allegoric structure--much less acknowledge its obvious supporting tenets. This bears a striking resemblance to the loathing the atheist has for the supernatural, this enmity exhibited in their "hiding" in matter to avoid the light of prescriptive truth.

In this system, it becomes apparent (meaning the concept shows it is coherent, bears unity with the rest of the structure, is harmonious and does not contradict) that God's wrath can on its highest level be read as applying fragmentally to bad elements within each person, already established in dozens of passages throughout Scripture as noted above, while His decrees of blessing apply to the whole individual. This is a congruous part of the overarching allegoric pattern.

Hence, instead of interpreting everything literally--as applying to individuals, which is shown to violate the perfection of God's justice in Gen 18--the Bible as a spiritual book has to be interpreted according to the right admixture of its literal and allegoric meaning. Take your Psa 1:4-6 example, where the sinners who will not stand in the congregation of the righteous, when allegoric and literal are properly joined, translates into the understanding that the stain of sin will be removed from the soul of the individual, who will stand in the righteousness of perfection. This is in accordance with Paul's distinction of the same all (interpreted literally as whole individuals)who die in Adam as the same all who will be made alive in Christ. It coheres with the glory and honor of the nations (whole individuals of all nations made pure and true) admitted into the holy city distinct from all things unclean (false portions annihilated from their souls) denied entrance to it (Rev. 21:26-27). It's simultaneously harmonious that smoke of the torment of sinners--the residue of falsity from the human soul burned up as kindling by Godly fire--is what goes up forever and ever. A parallel presentation is in Mal 4:2-3: "But for you who fear My name the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts.", in which the individual restored to a true state (perfection) is likened to the skipping calf treading over the ashes of his former falsity, burned out of his soul by the same Godly fire which establishes righteousness in time in sanctification of believers as that which becomes a roaring lake of fire to false elements of unbelief in individuals who refused to conform in time.

The problem defending this position is that theology board antagonists of Biblical universalism continually use their doctrine--i.e., their literal interpretation--as "proof" that universalism is wrong. Assigning the certitude of truth to a doctrine containing many tensions is a corruption. To judge an interpretation using one's own interpretation as the very standard of truth against which all competing explication is automatically wrong is circular and demeans proper, logical argument. Each should be considered on its own merits and judged by how it stands according to proper criteria for truth instead of whether it measures up to my view.

The Annihilationist does come halfway to the truth and is able to overcome the Torturer of traditional salvation, but still denies God the perfection of His justice by having Him destroy individuals in whom some good yet exists. Only the salvation of all by the methods noted above is able to wholly overcome this tension.
Evasive copout with no, zero, none evidence of any kind just unsupported opinion.
Have to admit, I'm impressed by your willingness and ability to take each distinguishing detail I presented and provide a thoughtful, point by point rebuttal for each.

Posted previously by Der Alter:
I do indeed post with a high degree of intellectual honesty.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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<snip>
The Annihilationist does come halfway to the truth and is able to overcome the Torturer of traditional salvation, but still denies God the perfection of His justice by having Him destroy individuals in whom some good yet exists. Only the salvation of all by the methods noted above is able to wholly overcome this tension.
Ahhh, I see. It is ok to see God as a Torturer as long as His Torture ends and brings out good in people. Interesting concept of God.
 
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Der Alte

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Originally Posted by DA
Because there is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support your "fragmental removal by God of false elements from the human soul." fantasy

So you're saying proper Bible interpretation hinges on "credible, verifiable, historical evidence"? So in your view, the Bible's truth is established by a preponderance of "credible, verifiable, historical evidence", i.e., by the greatest number of historical citations a particular interpretation is able to provide? Help me understand your position please.

Still waiting for an answer here DA.

I have had some interaction with the legal field, my name will be found in some of the Federal Reporters. I am not a lawyer but I have studied law for my previous chosen profession. The courts place very little credence in theoretical speculation. The only thing that a court recognizes is the law, evidence and case histories. I have yet to be given any reason why I should not apply the same reasoning here.

Because you post with a high degree of intellectual honesty, I'll assume one of the following to be true of the answer given above:
1) you didn't fully understand the question

2) I caught you at a bad time--cutting and pasting from your vast storage of the old writings of men who agree with your theology--and you misread the question. Even though it was to the point and simple to understand.

3) you misread my asking you to clarify your position that "there is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support your "fragmental removal by God of false elements from the human soul fantasy" and inadvertently thought I'd asked you to explain to me what your position does not depend on.

Logical fallacy expecting me to prove a negative. I can't prove that evidence does not exist but those promoting the fragmental stuff should be able to provide evidence to support their argument. Once again, I don't mean wild speculation such as God destroying rebellious Israelites is somehow analogous to some imagined process where God removes the bad parts of humans, thus purifying them.

Again: So in your view, the Bible's truth is established by a preponderance of "credible, verifiable, historical evidence", i.e., by the greatest number of historical citations a particular interpretation is able to provide?

Please feel free to present any credible, verifiable, historical evidence by scholars with some kind of educational credentials supporting your position. Repetition of speculation about "this is analogous to that" is not evidence.

Is this what you see as the primary feature of proper Bible interpretation?

See above.
 
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The courts place very little credence in theoretical speculation. The only thing that a court recognizes is the law, evidence and case histories. I have yet to be given any reason why I should not apply the same reasoning here.
The courts have for over a hundred years been moving from the 'spirit' of the law to its letter alone and many of the problems in our judicial system spring arguably from systems which erode law's power from serving moral or ethical grounds to place its power in the sole discretion of the intent(s) of those drafting such laws. This has been considered by many theists and moral people to be an ongoing usurping of law's alignment with prescriptive appropriateness to place it firmly in the inclinations of the minds of men. In short, this is a shifting from moral to secular standards. Not surprising to me you quote from an increasingly godless legal system to support your religious claims DA.

Doesn't surprise me that you use this cop-out to avoid answering my question. You're no doubt aware that you stuck your foot in your mouth with yet another of your foolish answers and are squirming to get out from under having to answer it. I pointed out earlier that your brand of harsh literalism has a not-surprising connection to atheist thinking, and your acceptance of law as it currently stands is to be expected, as all these share a mutual decline (albeit at different rates of velocity) from true to false.

You've now been given something to ponder as to your beloved legalism, but of course this will prove meaningless to you as any and all arguments which don't agree with your worldview do.

I've asked repeatedly for you to answer this question: "So in your view, the Bible's truth is established by a preponderance of "credible, verifiable, historical evidence", i.e., by the greatest number of historical citations a particular interpretation is able to provide?"

This is the answer you finally provide:

Logical fallacy expecting me to prove a negative. I can't prove that evidence does not exist but those promoting the fragmental stuff should be able to provide evidence to support their argument. Once again, I don't mean wild speculation such as God destroying rebellious Israelites is somehow analogous to some imagined process where God removes the bad parts of humans, thus purifying them.

Posted previously by Der Alter:

I do indeed post with a high degree of intellectual honesty.
I rest my case.
 
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Ahhh, I see. It is ok to see God as a Torturer as long as His Torture ends and brings out good in people. Interesting concept of God.
No, it's a closer alignment with truth to understand that God offers the spiritual surgery all must undergo the easy way by sanctification in life as opposed to the hard way in the embrace of God's truth essence, which is a roaring lake of fire to those who refuse His accommodation in life.

Any other superficial retorts Doc?
 
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Der Alte

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The courts have for over a hundred years been moving from the 'spirit' of the law to its letter alone and many of the problems in our judicial system spring arguably from systems which erode law's power from serving moral or ethical grounds to place its power in the sole discretion of the intent(s) of those drafting such laws. This has been considered by many theists and moral people to be an ongoing usurping of law's alignment with prescriptive appropriateness to place it firmly in the inclinations of the minds of men. In short, this is a shifting from moral to secular standards. Not surprising to me you quote from an increasingly godless legal system to support your religious claims DA.

Meaningless bloviation again with no, zero, none evidence! I'm not too interested in an outsider's biased assumptions/presuppositions. Do you have anything like evidence? Do you understand what I mean by evidence?

Doesn't surprise me that you use this cop-out to avoid answering my question. You're no doubt aware that you stuck your foot in your mouth with yet another of your foolish answers and are squirming to get out from under having to answer it. I pointed out earlier that your brand of harsh literalism has a not-surprising connection to atheist thinking, and your acceptance of law as it currently stands is to be expected, as all these share a mutual decline (albeit at different rates of velocity) from true to false.

Blah, blah, blah. Meaningless personal attack. Is that your best shot? I am not interested in meaningless criticism of what you term "harsh literalism." I deal in reality not every half baked theory that comes along. I didn't drink the koolaid in Guyana and I didn't attend the barbecue in Waco, so I'm not buying any of this stuff. I know a con when I see one.

You've now been given something to ponder as to your beloved legalism, but of course this will prove meaningless to you as any and all arguments which don't agree with your worldview do.

You got that right meaningless just like the teachings of LDS, WTBS, UC, UPCI, OP, WWCG, and a host of others.

I've asked repeatedly for you to answer this question: "So in your view, the Bible's truth is established by a preponderance of "credible, verifiable, historical evidence", i.e., by the greatest number of historical citations a particular interpretation is able to provide?"

I have answered this more than once. I'm sorry that you cannot understand my answer. I'll just ignore the rest of your insults.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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No, it's a closer alignment with truth to understand that God offers the spiritual surgery all must undergo the easy way by sanctification in life as opposed to the hard way in the embrace of God's truth essence, which is a roaring lake of fire to those who refuse His accommodation in life.

Any other superficial retorts Doc?
LOL, how is it superficial to point out that in a single post one has declared the orthodox view of Hell makes God a Torturer, then followed that with saying universalism gets God off the hook for THE SAME PUNISHMENT (Hell) only shorter because essentially it brings out the good that is those going through it. Either way one has declared God a Torturer and just said it is justified because it does not last forever and brings out the good in folks. (why do I think of Monty Python while writing that??? :scratch:)

What is superficial is people spouting off drival like that when they do not even realize the deeper (note- for those Rio Linda "deeper" here means not superficial) implications of what they are posting. If God is said to be a Torturer because Hell exists and it is eternal, it does not make Him any less a Torturer to say that the punishment does not last so long and is ok anyway because in the end the torture brings out the good in the people going through that. Either God is a torturer or not. One cannot have it both ways.
 
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LOL, how is it superficial to point out that in a single post one has declared the orthodox view of Hell makes God a Torturer, then followed that with saying universalism gets God off the hook for THE SAME PUNISHMENT (Hell) only shorter because essentially it brings out the good that is those going through it. Either way one has declared God a Torturer and just said it is justified because it does not last forever and brings out the good in folks. (why do I think of Monty Python while writing that??? :scratch:)

What is superficial is people spouting off drival like that when they do not even realize the deeper (note- for those Rio Linda "deeper" here means not superficial) implications of what they are posting. If God is said to be a Torturer because Hell exists and it is eternal, it does not make Him any less a Torturer to say that the punishment does not last so long and is ok anyway because in the end the torture brings out the good in the people going through that. Either God is a torturer or not. One cannot have it both ways.

You apparently don't understand the implications of the universalist doctrine when compared to your own. Universalism--and to a lesser degree, Annihilationism--reduces the torturing aspect tradition places God in via the endless torment of a finite human being, to a God who rightly punishes--not tortures--individuals for sin.

Your reasoning is defective. There, that's a softer term.
 
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Der Alte

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You apparently don't understand the implications of the universalist doctrine when compared to your own. Universalism--and to a lesser degree, Annihilationism--reduces the torturing aspect tradition places God in via the endless torment of a finite human being, to a God who rightly punishes--not tortures--individuals for sin.

Your reasoning is defective. There, that's a softer term.

Same action, same effect, but if it lasts a long time it is torture, if it last a short time it is punishment. Got it! Wonder how those unfortunate souls who get punished for whatever period feel toward God after they are "reconciled?" Don't you know they are going to be overflowing with love for God just like criminals in our society are after they have been punished. They just love the police, judges, lawyers, witnesses, etc. who they blame for their situation.
 
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