Hell

[CherubRam]

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Luke 24:25
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

 

[Der Alte]

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Luke 24:25
He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken!

Read Luke 24:25 "How foolish you are, and how slow to believe..." "slow to believe." In the post I questioned you said "Yahshua said to his disciples: 'How foolish of you to believe everything the prophets have said.'" "slow to believe" not "foolish to believe" The word translated "slow" means dull. Jesus didn't criticize his disciples for believing everything the prophets but because they they were dull and didn't understand everything so Jesus had to explain it to them.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.​

 

[CherubRam]

Read Luke 24:25 "How foolish you are, and how slow to believe..." "slow to believe." In the post I questioned you said "Yahshua said to his disciples: 'How foolish of you to believe everything the prophets have said.'" "slow to believe" not "foolish to believe" The word translated "slow" means dull. Jesus didn't criticize his disciples for believing everything the prophets but because they they were dull and didn't understand everything so Jesus had to explain it to them.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.​

I see you just do not get it. Anyway, if you want to believe that God tortures living beings for all eternity without mercy, then that is your right. And the serpent said: you will not surly die.

 

[CherubRam]

Revelation 20:14
And death and (hell / grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If Hell is done away with in the lake of (fire / judgment,) then how will there be any eternal torment in Hell?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation 20:14
And death and (hell / grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If Hell is done away with in the lake of (fire / judgment,) then how will there be any eternal torment in Hell?

Good question.
Too bad the Jews don't believe in Jesus or the Christian NT, or else they could help us poor ole dumb Christian Gentiles what it all means.

Rev 20:
13 and the sea did give up the dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them,
and they were judged, each one according to their works;
14 And the death and the hades were cast into the Lake of the fire.
This the second death, is the Lake of the fire

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity.
Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell....................................

LUKE 16:23
"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

As the passage above (as well as chapters 4 and 9 of Romans) shows, Gentile believers become "sons of Abraham" through faith in the Messiah. This faith allows Gentiles to no longer be "strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph. 2:19).

For centuries the Jews had received the benefits of being God's chosen people by virtue of being Abraham's physical descendants. But after the sacrifice of Yeshua, this place of honor and blessing would be predominantly given to the people represented by Lazarus.
This is the meaning of being "carried to the bosom of Abraham" in this parable.

In contrast to Lazarus, the rich man was buried in Hades. An understanding of the original meaning of the Greek word hades is necessary to grasp the message of the parable. Regarding the possible etymology of this word, the The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states that hades ". . . comes from idein (to see) with the negative prefix, a-, and so would mean the invisible . . . In the LXX hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb. she'ol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is the land of darkness . . ." (p. 206, vol. 2).

Most likely, hades originally meant "unseen." Later, it came to refer to the hidden state of those buried in the earth.
Symbolically, this parable shows that a point would come when the House of Judahwould become "unseen" by God, out of favor because of their unbelief.
There would come a time when the Jews as a whole would no longer be God's favored nation. God would harden their hearts, leading them to reject their Messiah (John 1:11)............


.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Der Alter said,

Where did I say that the Rich man/Lazarus story specifically mentioned duration?

"A"

the word of God exists forever

"B"

The passage "none may cross over from there to us." will remain in God's word unless/until He changes it.

From the above, you could take either the position that the rich man's punishment is of unknown or infinite duration.

You could mean since the word of God exists forever, the "none may cross over" reference, because it is part of God's unchanging word, necessarily applies infinite duration to the verse.

Alternatively, you could be saying that even though God's word exists forever, it is within His power, right and ability to change it if He pleases; hence, the verse is of unknown duration.

Which of these represents your actual view?

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Because there is no, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical evidence to support your "fragmental removal by God of false elements from the human soul." fantasy.

So you're saying proper Bible interpretation hinges on "credible, verifiable, historical evidence"? So in your view, the Bible's truth is established by a preponderance of "credible, verifiable, historical evidence", i.e., by the greatest number of historical citations a particular interpretation is able to provide? Help me understand your position please.

 

[FredVB]

English did not have a w letter long ago. The waw in Hebrew is pronounced UW.
Hebrew alphabet chart

Wrong! Your chart says the "ו" was pronounced 'waw." And that is the way it is taught in Bible colleges and seminaries.

It could be pronounced as a V if at the start of a word, or soft as a vowel in between syllables within a word, as a W or an oo sound. I don't think the pronunciation of the name a certain exact way is something to be demanded of anyone as there are various understandings of it. But it is good, with the understanding from Exodus 3:15, that Yahweh's name would never be forgotten, as with disuse. Yes this is still the likely form of the name, which I will believe, with those ancient Greek writings showing something for that.

Yahweh is totally just in judgment. There is eternal consequence to all sin. This is how there is hell. I can't define what it is like, yet there is the imagery to show it is miserable and lasting for any. It will still be fair for all, yet Yahweh loves us and provides for all so that through his redemption, in Christ, no one has to be doomed to that. They need to respond as they should.

 

[CherubRam]

Good question.
Too bad the Jews don't believe in Jesus or the Christian NT, or else they could help us poor ole dumb Christian Gentiles what it all means.

Rev 20:
13 and the sea did give up the dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them,
and they were judged, each one according to their works;
14 And the death and the hades were cast into the Lake of the fire.
This the second death, is the Lake of the fire

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about "hell" within traditional Christianity.
Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Yeshua told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell....................................

LUKE 16:23
"And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

As the passage above (as well as chapters 4 and 9 of Romans) shows, Gentile believers become "sons of Abraham" through faith in the Messiah. This faith allows Gentiles to no longer be "strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Eph. 2:19).

For centuries the Jews had received the benefits of being God's chosen people by virtue of being Abraham's physical descendants. But after the sacrifice of Yeshua, this place of honor and blessing would be predominantly given to the people represented by Lazarus.
This is the meaning of being "carried to the bosom of Abraham" in this parable.

In contrast to Lazarus, the rich man was buried in Hades. An understanding of the original meaning of the Greek word hades is necessary to grasp the message of the parable. Regarding the possible etymology of this word, the The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states that hades ". . . comes from idein (to see) with the negative prefix, a-, and so would mean the invisible . . . In the LXX hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb. she'ol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is the land of darkness . . ." (p. 206, vol. 2).

Most likely, hades originally meant "unseen." Later, it came to refer to the hidden state of those buried in the earth.
Symbolically, this parable shows that a point would come when the House of Judahwould become "unseen" by God, out of favor because of their unbelief.
There would come a time when the Jews as a whole would no longer be God's favored nation. God would harden their hearts, leading them to reject their Messiah (John 1:11)............


.

Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδη&#962, Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.

In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.

Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.


The story of Lazarus and the rich man does not belong in the bible. If Christ was to introduce the pagan belief into Judaism, don't you think he would have at least explained the parable. The fact of the matter is that it is a Gnostic corruption.
Eventually the god Hades came to be designate of the abode of the dead. Again, Hades was a Pagan god. What does the god Hades have to do with Judaism. Any Jews who did believe in a Hell were not Orthodox Jews.
Gehenna
Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; it then was a place of constant burning of refuge.
Gehenna is used as a parable to mean "eternal destruction." It has nothing to do with Pagan beliefs.

 

[jamie2014]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man does not belong in the bible.

I disagree. The parable illustrates a basic NT principle that people reap what they sow. The rich man had little love for his neighbor.

 

[CherubRam]

I disagree. The parable illustrates a basic NT principle that people reap what they sow. The rich man had little love for his neighbor.

It is not a biblical principle and it does not agree with scriptures.

 

[Der Alte]

Revelation 20:14
And death and (hell / grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If Hell is done away with in the lake of (fire / judgment,) then how will there be any eternal torment in Hell?

Which hell was cast into the LOF? This looks like you have two concepts of hell, 1. it is only the grave and 2. it is a place of punishment. But the hell in the verse you are alluding to is not the grave or the place of punishment.

Hell as the grave or the place of punishment could be cast into the LOF. But death is the moment in time end of life. It has no physical substance and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. There is another "hell" in scripture which can be thrown. In Rev 6:8 the angel of death and the angel or demon of hell are given power to kill 1/4 of the earth. When their task is completed they are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

I'm sure there are some who will say that this is some kind of allegory and these verses mean something entirely different.

 

[Der Alte]

Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδη&#962, Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.

In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.

Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man does not belong in the bible. If Christ was to introduce the pagan belief into Judaism, don't you think he would have at least explained the parable. The fact of the matter is that it is a Gnostic corruption.
Eventually the god Hades came to be designate of the abode of the dead. Again, Hades was a Pagan god. What does the god Hades have to do with Judaism. Any Jews who did believe in a Hell were not Orthodox Jews.
Gehenna
Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; it then was a place of constant burning of refuge.
Gehenna is used as a parable to mean "eternal destruction." It has nothing to do with Pagan beliefs.

Empty irrelevant argument, the Hell:No!, view being presented in this forum is not correct. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50 that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct.

Irrefutable evidence posted in my [post=65877433]Post #4[/post] this thread.

 

[createdtoworship]

Revelation 20:14
And death and (hell / grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

If Hell is done away with in the lake of (fire / judgment,) then how will there be any eternal torment in Hell?

I believe the greek there is Hades, so basically Hades and the grave are cast into the lake of fire. The lake is the ultimate eternal Hell.

 

[BobRyan]

The story of Lazarus and the rich man does not belong in the bible. If Christ was to introduce the pagan belief into Judaism, don't you think he would have at least explained the parable.

He did - and he said it illustrates the point that if they do not believe Moses they will not believe though one rises from the dead (Christ).

The fact of the matter is that it is a Gnostic corruption.

If you have an earlier manuscript for the Gospel of Luke that does not contain chapter 16 - please provide it.

Gehenna
Gehenna: Mentioned twelve or thirteen times in the bible. Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; it then was a place of constant burning of refuge.
Gehenna is used as a parable to mean "eternal destruction." It has nothing to do with Pagan beliefs.

That is true - and the fiery gehenna idea in Matt 10:28 points to the Rev 20 event - where "both body and soul are destroyed" in fiery Gehenna.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 20:14

I believe the greek there is Hades, so basically Hades and the grave are cast into the lake of fire. The lake is the ultimate eternal Hell.

Agreed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

1. Matthew 25:46
   King James Version (KJV)
   46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
   
   Augustine raised the argument that since Aionios in Matthew 25:46 refers to both life and punishment , it had to carry the same duration in both cases.
   
   You are stuck to believe the duration is relative to whom it is given.
   
2. secondly the soul has to be eternal because satan and angels are eternal and it is them that share the experience of Hell with the wicked.
   
3. thirdly, the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide until the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.
   Revelation 14:11
   King James Version (KJV)
   11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
   
   Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
   
   notice it states that they currently ARE there in revelation 20:10, placed in prior to the millenium, and still there 1000 years later! Literally speaking!
   Even Edward Fudge admits that the third argument is an argument for traditionalism regarding Hell. But then he dodges the context trying to play the game of illegitimate totality transfer again with the words, as he usually does.

 

[BobRyan]

When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42,

The fallacy in that argument is that you are using a text to show the eternal nature of the fire - and you then misapply it to make it the eternal nature of that which is being consumed resulting in a "never consumed" / "Never destroyed" false conclusion for that which is being thoroughly consumed and fully destroyed according to the text.

Thus you are making the text "stand on its head" to get to your tradition's preferred goal.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 18 states that the wicked pay the full price before the torment ends.

Luke 12:45-50 - degrees of punishment rather than infinite punishment for all

45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

 

[CherubRam]

Empty irrelevant argument, the Hell:No!, view being presented in this forum is not correct. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50 that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct.

Irrefutable evidence posted in my [post=65877433]Post #4[/post] this thread.

Gehenna and Sheol are biblical, Hell and Hades are not. Sheol, pit and Gehenna do not translate as Hell or Hades.
Hell and Hades are an interpretation, and non-biblical at that. Pagans and Gnostics corrupted the scriptures. The words: "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die" is parabolic of eternal destruction. Do you not understand that Christ came speaking in parables?

Parables Proverbs Riddles Dreams Visions.

Do you understand what these word below marked in red mean? Do you take the time to understand the verses? The bible often is written in a parable without giving any indication that it is parabolic.

Numbers 12:8
With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?”

Psalm 49:4
I will turn my ear to a proverb; with the harp I will expound my riddle:

Proverbs 1:6
for understanding proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise.

Daniel 5:12
He did this because Daniel, whom the king called Belteshazzar, was found to have a keen mind and knowledge and understanding, and also the ability to interpret dreams, explain riddles and solve difficult problems. Call for Daniel, and he will tell you what the writing means.”

Ezekiel 20:49
Then I said, “Sovereign LORD, they are saying of me, ‘Isn’t he just telling parables?’”

Hosea 12:10
I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them.”

Matthew 13:3
Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed.

Matthew 13:10
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

Matthew 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

Matthew 13:34
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.

Matthew 13:35
So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”

Psalm 78
2 I will open my mouth with a parable; I will utter hidden things, things from of old...