Hell

[CherubRam]

The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.

The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.

If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. Get my point?

Romans 1:32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


Matthew 10:28
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [hell / Gehenna.
The word Gehenna is used as a parable to mean eternal destruction.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.


Job 27:8
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?


As we all know the bible uses many parables. There is no real Hell, that word was put into scriptures by the Gnostic Pagans. Words like grave, pit, and Gehenna were replaced with the word hell. Those who are condemned to destruction never return. They are cut off for all eternity, never to live again.

The number of times "Hell" appears in the English Bible
Translations


Bible Translations
Old Testament
New Testament
Total's
"Authorized" King James Version
31
23
54
New King James Version
19
13
32
American Standard Version
0
13
13
New American Standard Bible
0
13
13
Revised Standard Version
0
12
12
New Revised Standard Version
0
12
12
Revised English Bible
0
13
13
New Living Translation
0
13
13
Amplified
0
13
13
New International Version (best-selling English Bible)
0
14
14
Darby
0
12
12
New Century Version
0
12
12
Wesley's New Testament (1755)

0
0
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)

0
0
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)

0
0
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
0
0
0
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)

0
0
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
0
0
0
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
0
0
0
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)

0
0
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
0

0
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)

0
0
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)

0
0
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)

0
0
Western N.T. (1926)

0
0
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)

0
0
Concordant Literal NT (1983)

0
0
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)

0
0
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)

0
0
New American Bible (1970)
0
0
0
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
0
0
0
Tanakh. The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
0

0
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)

0
0
Christian Bible (1991)
0
0
0
World English Bible (in progress)
0
0
0
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)

0
0
0
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)

0
0
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**

0
0

 

[CherubRam]

Hades is the Greek god of the underworld.

Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδη&#962, Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.

In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.

Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.


Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.

Luke 16:23
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[CherubRam]

Tar-ta-rus (tartarus) [[ Gr Tartaros ]] Gr. Myth. 1. An infernal abyss below Hades, where Zeus hurls the rebel Titans, later a place of punishment for the demons and devils. (mentioned only once in the Bible)


2 Peter 2:4
New International Version (NIV)

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Footnotes:
a.2 Peter 2:4 Greek Tartarus
b.2 Peter 2:4 Some manuscripts in gloomy dungeons

 

[Der Alte]

The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.

The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.

If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. Get my point?

Romans 1:32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”


Matthew 10:28
And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in [hell / Gehenna.
The word Gehenna is used as a parable to mean eternal destruction.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. [In context this refers to things under the sun, not man's eternal fate! DA]

Job 27:8
For what hope have the godless when they are cut off, when God takes away their life?

As we all know the bible uses many parables. There is no real Hell, that word was put into scriptures by the Gnostic Pagans. [Wrong! DA]Words like grave, pit, and Gehenna were replaced with the word hell. Those who are condemned to destruction never return. They are cut off for all eternity, never to live again.

Based on historical evidence below the Hell:No!, view being presented in this forum is not correct. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50 that supported and validated the existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to maturity in that culture. He knew what His countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).


Jewish Encyclopedia Online
====================================================================
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[CherubRam]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gehenna (Greek γέενν&#945, Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנ&#1501 and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.

In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]

In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked. This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both usually with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

English "Gehenna" represents the Greek Ge'enna (γέενν&#945 found in the New Testament, a phonetic transcription of Aramaic Gēhannā (ܓܗܢ&#1808, equivalent to the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom".

This was known in the Old Testament as Gai Ben-Hinnom, literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom", and in the Talmud as גהנם Gehinnam or גהנום Gehinnom.

Topheth, etymology is uncertain; the most probable connection with the root meaning is: "burning"-the "place of burning."


More miscellaneous quotes.
Gehenna
The full name of this low-lying land is the Valley of the Son of Hinnom – whoever that may have been. Knowing nothing about either son or father, we can only conjecture that Hinnom probably bequeathed his son some rather fertile farmland in this valley that surrounds old Jerusalem on the southwest. The valley’s name in Hebrew is Gei Ben-Hinnom or simply Gei-Hinnom. In light of the sacrifices to the fire god, the latter name gave rise to the word “Gehenna,” which over time became a synonym for hell.

Early Jewish sages saw Isaiah 31:9 – which says God’s “fire is in Zion” and “furnace in Jerusalem” – as a reference to this valley, which they described as the gates of hell. The valley’s other biblical name, Topheth, means inferno, adding to its image as a place of eternal torment.

On a more positive note, when the people of Judah returned from exile around 538 BC, according to Nehemiah they took up “living all the way from Beersheba to the Valley of Hinnom” (Nehemiah 11:30).

But, sadly, the bad news continued even after Old Testament times. In the New Testament, this was the place where the chief priests bought a potter’s field with Judas Iscariot’s infamous 30 pieces of silver. Not wanting to keep the money, they decided to use it to buy a burial place for foreigners. “That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day” (Matthew 27:6-8). The version of the story in Acts turns quite gory: “With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood” (Acts 1:18-19).

Rabbi named David Kimhi who wrote a commentary on Psalm 27 in the 13th Century. He remarked
“Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called ‘Gehenna.’

Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. He wrote:
“In these gardens, lying partly within the mouth of Hinnom and partly in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and irrigated by the waters of Siloam, Jerome assigns the place of Tophet; where the Jews practised the horrid rites of Baal and Moloch, and ‘burned their sons and their daughters in the fire.’ It was probably in allusion to this detested and abominable fire, that the later Jews applied the name of this valley (Gehenna), to denote the place of future punishment or the fires of hell. At least there is no evidence of any other fires having been kept up in the valley; as has sometimes been supposed” (Biblical Researches, vol. 1 [1841], 404-5).
The origin of the “garbage dump” theory appears to be Kimchi. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator’s logic, but does not accept it.

“With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimchi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse; ‘therefore the judgment of the wicked is parabolically called Gehenna.’ But from the Biblical references the place appears to have nothing physically objectionable about it; in contrast to its contemporary condition Jeremiah prophesied that it would one day be called ‘Valley of Slaughter’” (“The Holy City and Gehenna,” JBL 27/1 [1908], 34).

Lloyd R. Bailey quotes Kimchi directly:
“The traditional explanation for this seems to go back to Rabbi David Kimhi’s commentary on Psalm 27 (around 1200 C.E.). He remarked the following concerning the valley beneath Jerusalem’s walls:
Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called ‘Gehenna.’
“Kimhi's otherwise plausible suggestion, however, finds no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient” (“Gehenna: The Topography of Hell,” Biblical Archaeologist 49/3 [1986], 188-89).

G. R. Beasley-Murray made a similar observation:
“The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. The valley was the scene of human sacrifices, burned in the worship of Moloch (2 Kings 16:3 and 21:6), which accounts for the prophecy of Jeremiah that it would be called the Valley of Slaughter under judgment of God (Jer. 7:32-33). This combination of abominable fires and divine judgment led to the association of the valley with a place of perpetual judgment (see Isa. 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff)” (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77).
Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV) — And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere.

Isaiah had already envisioned Topheth as the fiery destiny of an enemy of God.

Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) — Indeed! Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. His funeral pyre is deep and wide, with plenty of fire and wood. The breath of the Lord, like a torrent of brimstone, kindles it.
Isaiah closes his book with these words:

Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) — “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Yahshua and his disciples used the word Gehenna (“valley of Hinnom”) as synonymous with a place of everlasting punishment.

 

[abysmul]

Best passage in the Bible ever:

And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to torture the soul with the endless burning fires of Hell : but rather fear him which is able to destroy the body and perpetually torture the soul for eternity in hell.


Oh, wait... I can't seem to find that passage.

 

[Der Alte]

That is what Pagan Jews believed, not Orthodox Jews. Hell is not a belief or teaching in Orthodox Judaism.

Totally irrelevant. No evidence that any Jews at the time of Jesus were pagan. Jesus certainly didn't say anything about it. That is what jews believed at the time of Jesus and when Jesus taught, in their presence, about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50, that teaching supported and validated the then existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to adulthood in that culture. He knew what His fellow countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct.

 

[CherubRam]

Catholic Gnosticism.
The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.

Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

 

[CherubRam]

Totally irrelevant. No evidence that any Jews at the time of Jesus were pagan. Jesus certainly didn't say anything about it. That is what jews believed at the time of Jesus and when Jesus taught, in their presence, about "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46""the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50, that teaching supported and validated the then existing view of eternal hell. Jesus was born into and grew to adulthood in that culture. He knew what His fellow countrymen, the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong Jesus would have corrected them. He did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct.

The Serpent says: "You will not surly die..." And that is what you agree to and believe. God says: "You will surly die" And that is what I agree to and believe.

 

[Der Alte]

Best passage in the Bible ever:

And do not fear them which can kill the body, but are not able to torture the soul with the endless burning fires of Hell : but rather fear him which is able to destroy the body and perpetually torture the soul for eternity in hell.


Oh, wait... I can't seem to find that passage.

What God created He can destroy but wait I can't find the scripture which says God destroys even one soul in hell. See my [post=65877433]Post #4[/post], above.

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on the fate of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

 

[Der Alte]

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave or perish, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave or perish, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 And he [Abraham] said unto him, [the rich man] If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does this verse change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

 

[CherubRam]

What God created He can destroy but wait I can't find the scripture which says God destroys even one soul in hell. See my [post=65877433]Post #4[/post], above.

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on the fate of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

You are fumbling big time. Do you know what a Parables is?

 

[Der Alte]

Catholic Gnosticism
The attitude of the Catholic Church toward paganism is best summed up by Pope Gregory the Great, in his words to a missionary: “You must not interfere with any traditional belief or religious observance that can be harmonized with Christianity.”

Pope Gregory 540 – 12 March 604.

Where did he allegedly say this?

Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

Wrong again! The scripture were canonized in the 3rd century. There was no "Catholic Church" with a pope at its head, in Rome until 1075 when the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped authority over the church. Until that time Rome had no more authority than any other than any other church. Before all presiding bishops used the title, Papa. Gregory VII the bishop of Rome decreed that only he had the authority to use the title.

 

[Der Alte]

You are fumbling big time. Do you know a Parables is?

Oh that's right the entire Bible is one big parable and only you know what it really means. If the plain sense makes good sense it is nonsense to look for any other sense. There are several people on this forum right now all claiming that various things are parables and they are all different and you are just one more.

When Jesus used a parable He almost always explained it.

 

[CherubRam]

Where did he allegedly say this?



Wrong again! The scripture were canonized in the 3rd century. There was no "Catholic Church" with a pope at its head, in Rome until 1075 when the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped authority over the church. Until that time Rome had no more authority than any other than any other church. Before all presiding bishops used the title, Papa. Gregory VII the bishop of Rome decreed that only he had the authority to use the title.

The combination "the catholic Church" (he katholike ekklesia) is recorded for the first time in the letter of St Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about 110 AD.

 

[Der Alte]

The combination "the catholic Church" (he katholike ekklesia) is recorded for the first time in the letter of St Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about 110 AD.

No it is not! There is no such Greek word as "katholike." The term katos holos occurs in the ECF, it means "according to the whole."

Here is a link to Ignaius' letter to the Smyrneans. Please show me where he anything about a catholic church? Hint it ain't there. Not everything that is posted on the internet is true.

Apostolic Fathers - Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

 

[CherubRam]

The Rich Man And Lazarus With Commentary.
Luke 16
19 "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, and before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahuah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person. It also contradicts where God said “you will surly die.”

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahuah. There is no life for them afterward.

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

These are obviously the words of a dimwit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahuah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Yahuah in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. After the return from Babylon the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” are the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

Theophilus is the name or honorary title of the person to whom the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles are addressed (Luke 1:3, Acts 1:1)

It is unanimously agreed that both Luke and Acts were originally written in Koine Greek, and that "Theophilos," as it appears therein, means friend of God or (be)loved by God or loving God in the Greek language.

No one knows the true identity of Theophilus who wrote the story, and there are more than several conjectures and traditions around an identity.

In all there are about eight traditions based upon that story. Again I say: Hell has never been a doctrinal belief in Judaism.

Don't you think if Yahshua was to introduce a new doctrine that he would at least explain the story?

 

[Evergreen48]

These are obviously the words of a dimwit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahuah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Yahuah in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. After the return from Babylon the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” are the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

And may I add, that nowhere in this passage of "scripture" is it said that it was Jesus who told this story.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Rich Man And Lazarus With Commentary.
Luke 16

These are obviously the words of a dimwit, and not the words of an ancient being.
In all there are about eight traditions based upon that story.
Again I say: Hell has never been a doctrinal belief in Judaism.

Don't you think if Yahshua was to introduce a new doctrine that he would at least explain the story?

Oh if only more Christians [and especially the apostate Jews of today] would read and study that fascinating, but misunderstood, covenantly parable, it would explain all of the OT/OC, NT/NC, including the Jewish/Hewbrew book of Revelation......IMHO

I brought up 2 posts concerning the parable/story of the Rich Man[Judah/Jews] and Lazarus [Gentiles] over here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7829268/#post65878238
LAZARUS AND RICH MAN

http://www.christianforums.com/t7829268/#post65878238
ABRAHAM'S BOSOM


.

 

[Evergreen48]

Here is a link to Ignaius' letter to the Smyrneans. Please show me where he anything about a catholic church? Hint it ain't there. Not everything that is posted on the internet is true.

Apostolic Fathers - Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

Ignatius' Letter to the Smryneans (8:2):
"Wherever the bishop appears let the congregation be present;
just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."