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Brings to mind this humorous cartoon
Originally Posted by simonthezealot
The Pope, King of the world?
Ever read the Bull Unam Sanctum?
Check it out, especially the last part.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html
Along those lines take a look also at this...Also...
Hades is the Greek god of the underworld.
Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδης
In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.
Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.
Matthew 11:23
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Luke 10:15
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.
Luke 16:23
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Nobody wants to touch this tar baby.
FL. that there is something burned is obvious. Note the number of times in what follows that the FL of Jesus uses in His words either a collection of elements or a collection of elements pertaining to a whole. Mat 3:12 bears a striking resemblence to the parable of the wheat and tares. In 3:12, there are good elements (wheat) and bad elements (chaff) from a whole (threshing floor).
This FL verse at most speaks to moral culpability; despite the fact there is no mention of eternal punishment, hellfire folks throw this and many like it into their bag. More often than not, those who attempt to drown their opponents in verbiage do so because they haven't the rational skills to properly argue their position.
This is ambiguous. Jesus could be speaking of a temporal state. And, as is true of much of the eternal tormentist's proof texting, this verse is completely silent re the concept of individuals suffering eternal hell.
These verses describe human fallenness and says nothing about hell of any variety. Notice how verses like these are buried into the "drown you in text" list. Using excessive proof texting looks like the poster knows what he's talking about....until closer inspection shows that he's thrown in everything he can find under the sun, in an apparent effort to impress his friends and confuse his opponents. Once sorted through, there's very little of substance in the entire post.
Same as above. Nothing about hell here.
Nothing about hell here.
Again, the insertion of the literalist's desire to defend God's wish to torture humans eternally by stifling metaphoric language. Doing so misses the meaning completely. As pointed out earlier, look at the structure of Jesus' FL--the reference of parts pertaining to a whole. The literalist in his zeal to make the Bible fit his doctrine completely misses one of the most revealing metaphors taught about the truth of hell's purpose in the Bible: the separation of bad parts from a whole. Reread the above passage carefully.
Destruction of what? There is no support for the concept of individuals spending an eternity in hell in these passages, but this doesn't stop the literalist from including it in his text-barrage. It sounds as though there are few parts which find or make it to the narrow way, but many parts are met with destruction. Again, that persistent pattern .
Again, FL leading to an obvious reference to moral responsibility, but no reference to individuals spending an eternity in hellfire.
Same as above.
Same as above.
Yet again in the FL of Jesus is the separation of bad components (tares) and good components (wheat) from a whole (field). Starting to see a pattern here? You won't if you're a dogmatic literalist who's bought into the eternal torment of whole people and teach it to the exclusion of all evidence to the contrary. The pattern was established by God in the first book of the Bible:
The metaphor of Godly fire as a retributive process is obvious and granted. No contest. Of interest is that there is no mention of eternal torment, just that the wicked will be severed from the unjust. Ezek 21:2-5 says the same exact thing about "all flesh". So, in the highly metaphoric language of the Bible, we can determine that God decrees punishment on humanity which bears a resemblance to sword, fire and other forms of destruction. There's sufficient warrant to establish this. It is necessarily missed completely by the hardcore literalist intent only on defending a doctrine that there is in this FL a separation or severing of wicked from just. Another reference to some work performed within a whole.
Okay, so we must be converted and become like children. Doesn't it make sense that if there are bad parts which act as a deterrent to an adult to become like a little child in the sense intended here, God needs only to remove that deterrent to restore the individual to the desired state? Childlike faith is something all humans possess very early in life. We lose it by being corrupted. When the corruption is removed, the original state prevails.
Truth test: if it can be shown that Gods pure Truth essence is a roaring fire to unrighteous elements within the human soul, then the eternal fire of Mat 18:8 and anywhere else found in the Bible can be seen as a reference to the natural opposition between God and man, not a reference to eternal torment of humans. (See the Psa 14 verses above and compare this idea closely with all the verses posted.)
Another example of text barrage this example was used in its Mat 5:29-30 sister quote above and is repeated here, obviously to beef up the whole passage flooding scheme, and is apparently used a third time when were advised to access comments on Mark 9:43-48, a third passage of the same teaching.
Nothing here about humans suffering eternally in hell.
Nothing here about eternal suffering in hell, but the passages do provide yet another of the many examples in Scripture of a separation of good from bad elements.
Same as above. Nothing whatever to do with an eternal hell.
Same. No hell to be found here.
Same. No hell.
This is the ONLY place in the Bible the term everlasting punishment, which has been covered re Barclays observation in another post.
Same consistent concepts apply here which have already been presented above: the smoke (that which has been destroyed and burned out of the human soul) ascends (departs) forever. Cleansing complete. Soul restored.
First, the worm thing is not in the ancient manuscripts and is generally conceded to have been added much later, probably by a zealous monk as an embellishment to the actual text. Second, the literalistusing this same teaching for the third time in his post (text barrage)again, or rather still, completely misses the figurative elements in Jesus use of FL.
Good example of the traditionalist forcing his doctrine on the Scriptures. There is no leaving hell because its an experience, not a place. Jesus warns us all about the unquenchable fire because those who reject Him will face its terrible purification without mercy, albeit in Gods greatest expression of love, for He will not lose a single one the Son draws to Him in His having been lifted up (Jn 12:32) And those portions of us which reject Him will be brought to the light of His fire and eliminated (1Cor 3:11-15). Hence, the change occurs when all the false elements are destroyed from the individual soul, restoring the person to right relationship with her Maker.
What? This is completely taken out of context as part of the text barrage.
Wheres the hell you champion? Not here.
See how DA forces doctrine on the Scriptures? He takes a FL passage with no connection to the eternal punishment and imposes it onto his favorite punishment verse. We've already been across that bridge.
Because the FL of Jesus was never intended for understanding by a literalist audience, the answer to this question is lost on him. Answer: In time, the Godly fire which sanctifies the believer effects the change in time. In the unbeliever, the same Godly firewhich serves exactly the same purpose of destroying the false elements which prevent the unbeliever from union with Godeffects this change, either at the instant of physical death (if you want to be philosophically accurate), which from the perspective of the person who finds herself in the purifying lake of Truth [fire] can be a small eternity, or after she passes and suffers same on the eternity side of things, if you aren't concerned with metaphysical propriety.
Same as above. Saved in what sense? Where does it say anything about suffering eternally in hell. I've explained the temporal/eternal distinction of salvation to you before, which satisfies the above by noting that some find their eternal salvation in this life (satisfying Jesus' response above) while the remainder face harsher purification at the end of their life or in eternity itself in the lake of God's essence, which is a roaring lake of fire to the kindling of false elements within the human soul.
Same as above. No mention of individuals suffering in an eternal hell here.
Let's use intellectual honesty here. The rich man is not told he must remain there forever, only that there is a gulf between him and the place where no torment exists. You force eternal separation on a verse which clearly does not teach it.
Ya think? Sorry, couldnt resist the sarcasm, since your rote literalism is designed precisely to deny this truth by choosing which FL passages you will allow to abide by its structure. Thus the corruption of the literal, that it holds Gods word hostage and limits God to say only what literalism allows it to say.
These are manmade rules, not spiritual truth. Remember the control thing? Behold the beast. I could concede such a view if there existed any legitimate reason for placing it there. What basis is there for such a rule? It seems to me you're just trying to add some admittedly needed weight to your arguments by sticking in some sort of contrived linguistic rule to cement your position. Unless you can come up with a reasonable basis for this, it should be assigned to empty posturing.
It doesn't need to change. You're misreading it. Jesus isn't making a demand, He's showing us the standard he intends to impose upon all whom He decreed He will draw (Jn 12:32) The whole "when a person dies...etc" used above is not in the Bible, it's your doctrine being wrongly presented as truth. I understand that you believe this stuff, but the downfall of the harsh literalist is his inability to see that his beliefs, though they certainly hold truth, are not identical to truth itself.
No mention of individuals suffering in an eternal hell here or of this being an eternal set of circumstances.
No mention of individuals suffering in an eternal hell here. Also, argument from silence, a conclusion based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than their presence. Carries no weight.
No mention of individuals suffering in an eternal hell here. Answer to your question is, they're burned until all the bad stuff is annihilated.
Now read Jesus' FL in the same sense He intended it: Those portions of the essence of an individual which prevent him from belief are already condemned. This, unlike the literalist doctrine of eternal suffering of individuals, is part of a consistent, coherent, congruous and harmonious interpretation of Scripture which resolves the tensions imposed by literalism.
You do not seem to know the difference between an interpretation and a translation. You also fail to understand that Christ came speaking in parables.
HELL
