Hell

[Huntun]

How unfair is that?

The fact that the choice is supposedly forced on people in the first place. Also the fact that many who are not Christians (assuming you embrace the idea that non Christian go to hell) don't necessarily even have a problem with God so much as they never met and interacted with the God in the first place. I certainly never said " I reject being with the Christian God and instead would prefer to suffer forever in hell" because I never met this being in the first place and therefore have nothing to base such a decision on and also lack sufficient evidence to even believe he (a personal divine judge who offers this choice) exists in first place. Heck, I'll happily say "if he exists I'll go to heaven with him" simply because I'm not a fan of suffering for eternity. But I've been told it doesn't work that way. So much for me getting to choose what I want. Not being convinced of his existence and adopting another religion supposedly sends me to hell under that theory regardless of what I want.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

No evil that humans do is infinite, so eternal punishment could never be just.

I fail to see how you could know this. Your claim seems bald.

How evil is rejecting infinite goodness?

 

[OrdinaryClay]

Hell, as a physical place is indeed established in Bible text. Whether one likes it or not is beside the point.

Exactly.

Christianity is not about what we want to believe or what we wish were true.

As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
(Joh 6:66-68)

 

[OrdinaryClay]

The point is that hell is evil, so a good being couldn't have created such a place. We can be much more certain that hell is evil than that the Bible is trustworthy (or that a particular interpretation of the Bible is trustworthy).

The problem with your position is that you assume total knowledge which you do not have. God is good and just. Would a good person reject justice. Of course not. An evil person rejects justice.

But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
(1Sa 16:7)

That doesn't make it better. It's wrong to punish demons for eternity too, if their sins are finite (which they probably are).

How do you know what their sins are.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

The first of those views paints God as a torturer.

Can you provide scripture that supports such a view?

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
(2Pe 3:9)

 

[OrdinaryClay]

"Everything that God does is good by definition" makes it possible to believe absolutely anything a person would otherwise consider evil or morally reproachable and attribute it to God.

Where did you get such a definition?

 

[OrdinaryClay]

The fact that I don't believe isn't my fault. So my excuse is that I looked, and found nothing. I didn't know.

You were not forced to reject Him.

Do you mean you looked and rejected what you found?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You were not forced to reject Him.

Do you mean you looked and rejected what you found?

You can't reject something that you don't believe exists.

 

[epluribus36]

Ahm, you said a bad word, H E double-toothpicks!

 

[woodpecker]

Until a person understands that God is holy, and God can not be with sin, you will not except Gods plan, Jesus messiah, through His son God made a way so you could spend eternity with Him.

This is supernatural, not of mans reason, but of a God that is Pure, Good, Moral, and righteous.

Books and discussion can lead you on this search, but it will not be until the Holy Spirit shows the truth to you, because you want the truth, not the debate, not the wisdom of man, but the wisdom of the Spirit.

Many people in the Muslim countries are receiving dreams and visions of Jesus....you really want to find God, you will.

 

[bhsmte]

Until a person understands that God is holy, and God can not be with sin, you will not except Gods plan, Jesus messiah, through His son God made a way so you could spend eternity with Him.

This is supernatural, not of mans reason, but of a God that is Pure, Good, Moral, and righteous.

Books and discussion can lead you on this search, but it will not be until the Holy Spirit shows the truth to you, because you want the truth, not the debate, not the wisdom of man, but the wisdom of the Spirit.

Many people in the Muslim countries are receiving dreams and visions of Jesus....you really want to find God, you will.

Sure, if one tries hard enough and they have a psychological need to, they can convince themselves of just about anything.

Now, whether they are dealing with reality or not, is an entirely different question.

 

[Huntun]

I've seen people make the claim that "if you really seek God you will find him." How long exactly do you have to search? Even when I was a strongly convinced Christian I still never received conclusive evidence of his existence or of divine human communication other than strong feelings and intuitions that my will to believe helped me interpret as evidence for a time. Believe me I wasn't happy when I lost faith either. I was desperately searching for some conclusive evidence that would allow me to believe again. All that I had thought to be "evidence" at one point, when later viewed from a more detached logical manner, proved inconclusive to say the least. I had no choice but to conclude that it was only a case of confirmation bias that had ever allowed me to accept such experiences as evidence of anything more than the ability of humans to have said experiences. Nothing supernatural about it.

So, while I no longer have a desire to search for a personal creator God, now that I've embraced Buddhism, I have certainly put in a good deal of searching in the past. Been to all sorts of churches, put in my time reading everything from the Bible, to the "church fathers", to medieval Catholic mystics and Nestorian monks, to fundamentalist end times dispensationalists, to modern theologians and also put in my fair share of praying. All that and nothing conclusive evidence wise. Kind of a bummer really because I invested so much time and energy.

 

[Nooj]

I've seen people make the claim that "if you really seek God you will find him." How long exactly do you have to search? Even when I was a strongly convinced Christian I still never received conclusive evidence of his existence or of divine human communication other than strong feelings and intuitions that my will to believe helped me interpret as evidence for a time. Believe me I wasn't happy when I lost faith either. I was desperately searching for some conclusive evidence that would allow me to believe again. All that I had thought to be "evidence" at one point, when later viewed from a more detached logical manner, proved inconclusive to say the least. I had no choice but to conclude that it was only a case of confirmation bias that had ever allowed me to accept such experiences as evidence of anything more than the ability of humans to have said experiences. Nothing supernatural about it.

So, while I no longer have a desire to search for a personal creator God, now that I've embraced Buddhism, I have certainly put in a good deal of searching in the past. Been to all sorts of churches, put in my time reading everything from the Bible, to the "church fathers", to medieval Catholic mystics and Nestorian monks, to fundamentalist end times dispensationalists, to modern theologians and also put in my fair share of praying. All that and nothing conclusive evidence wise. Kind of a bummer really because I invested so much time and energy.

i've never gotten any conclusive evidence in the way that i've sometimes wanted it, but conclusive evidence is evidence that concludes stuff, and i don't want any conclusion. i think of the christian journey as a journey in desire, a reshaping of our misshapen desire into a desire for god. we hope and desire and we get a whole lot of frustration, which only further feeds our desire for consummation with god. how long will it take? our entire lives, i imagine.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

You can't reject something that you don't believe exists.

Actually you can. I reject the idea of unicorns because I don't believe they exist.

That is beside the point though. The belief that God does not exist is reached in the human mind by rejecting the evidence for His existence.

 

[OrdinaryClay]

So, while I no longer have a desire to search for a personal creator God, now that I've embraced Buddhism,

Do you believe Buddhist prayer flags work?

 

[OrdinaryClay]

Sure, if one tries hard enough and they have a psychological need to, they can convince themselves of just about anything.

Now, whether they are dealing with reality or not, is an entirely different question.

ergo, an atheist could be engaging in willful denial.

It is true that the human mind deceives itself, but simply pointing that out is fruitless. It's not an argument. It's FUD.

 

[bhsmte]

ergo, an atheist could be engaging in willful denial.

It is true that the human mind deceives itself, but simply pointing that out is fruitless. It's not an argument. It's FUD.

Call it what you will, but there is no denying, the human mind will generate a belief in anything, if we have a psychological need to do so.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

God calls his elect through his Holy Spirit, not by sermons or scholarly study. Those who are called 'know what they know', but cannot explain it to anyone other than another believer. Those who have tried and failed to connect with God are just not called in this age. But not to despair, all will be called in the next.

 

[Received]

God calls his elect through his Holy Spirit, not by sermons or scholarly study. Those who are called 'know what they know', but cannot explain it to anyone other than another believer. Those who have tried and failed to connect with God are just not called in this age. But not to despair, all will be called in the next.

Calvinistic universalism?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Calvinistic universalism?

My understanding is that Israel will be saved in two stages, or harvests. The first is the calling out of the church, the firstfruits. The second, the great harvest, will occur during the millennial reign of Christ. I really don't know what will happen to everyone else.