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OrdinaryClay

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or as completely natural alien intelligences more like ET's than supernatural beings ,
I find this one particularly eerie. This is part of a nascent modern trend of deifying "Extraterrestrials" and lays the ground work for a huge deception.

This book addresses the western version of this trend.
Amazon.com: FINAL EVENTS and the Secret Government Group on Demonic UFOs and the Afterlife eBook: Nick Redfern: Kindle Store

Here is an interview with the author.
http://futurequake.com/Audio/FQShow231.mp3
 
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Kylie

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Here's the nut. When an atheist says "You can't reject something that you don't believe exists." they are simply ignoring the fact that they did indeed reject God and that's how they reached their state of non-belief.

Do you reject Darth Vader, or do you simply not believe he exists?
 
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Nooj

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Western Buddhism is hardly syncretic. First day in my intro class (not led by a western hippy, rather, a Thai monk) said that you are not required to accept everything claimed to be Buddhism in order to be Buddhist.

Having to believe the entirety of a canonical text, I'll leave that schtick to Christians, thanks.

there are modernist trends in buddhism. especially the forms of east asian buddhism that was transmitted to western countries during the 19th and early 20th century century, are derived from modernist buddhisms that sprung up in places like burma, thailand, japan and others.

the japanese zen that came to america from people like d.t. suzuki, were transmitted by people who - from the perspective of japanese zen - were minor, unsuccessful, marginal figures in japan for a variety of reasons, some of which were their views which were unorthodox or unconventional. when they came to america though, they became very successful.

the thai forest tradition, or the burmese popular meditation movement (vipassana) are quite recent inventions and reforms. before recently, the vast majority of buddhists in history never meditated and the idea of meditation was a kind of elite practice practiced by some, not even most monks. this was an asian invention, which has become very popular in western ideas of buddhism, so that most westerners who have heard of buddhism inevitably link it to meditation.

again let me emphasise: there are modernist east asians as well. just because we east asians are east asians doesn't mean we also don't also change our religions. buddhism is like christianity, buddhists are like christians in this regard, because we are humans and we are religious people.

and though you, a lay househoulder may not have accept everything claimed to be buddhism, thai monks *do* have to accept the theravada canonical texts, which from a theravada pov, is not just claimed to be the words of the buddha, but actually ARE the words of the buddha.

western buddhism is not necessarily the kind of atheistic buddhism that for some reason many atheists seem to have taken up. the western buddhisms practiced are very diverse indeed and i think you'll find many sanghas in the west are traditional. it's common, i find, for teachers to 'change' or de-emphasise certain aspects of the religion for new converts or listeners. a thai monk may speak differently to a western audience of potential converts than to his native audience back in chiang mai.

Actually it was the Buddha who taught that you shouldn't be required to accept things on authority or just because they are taught to be "Buddhist". Doesn't take syncretism for that idea to appear in Buddhism:
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."​
- Kalama Sutta



Not that there is anything wrong with syncretism though. It would be silly to close yourself off to theories and ideas just because they happen to come from outside your favorite sect.

that's really the favourite proof text used by a lot of atheist buddhists in order to reject ideas like rebirth, which would be beyond the pale for most of buddhist history (i.e. a heretical idea), but you should be aware of strong objections to what they see as gross misinterpretations of it by people like bikkhu bodhi and thanissaro bikkhu:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/lostinquotation.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_09.html
 
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woodpecker

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Apostle John:

"When I turned to see who was speaking to me, I saw seven gold lampstands. And standing in the middle of the lampstands was someone like the Son of Man.(Jesus) He was wearing a long robe with a gold sash across his chest. His head and his hair were white like wool, as white as snow. And his eyes were like flames of fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and his voice thundered like mighty ocean waves. He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp two-edged sword came from his mouth. And his face was like the sun in all its brilliance.

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave. (Rev.1)
 
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Archaeopteryx

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So is language, but science declares with great confidence that language is innate as is our theism.


I'm Christian so obviously I don't lump them together. To dispel the bogus myth that atheism is the human default position one simply needs to acknowledge their historical and universal belief.

The gross polytheism of world wide Buddhism speaks for itself. People are drawn to theism like a moth to a flame.

Why would the pervasiveness of theism across history make it the default position? Diseases are pervasive across history also. Yet the default state is presumed to be one of health.
 
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Received

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There's no such thing as a default position. Claiming that there must be something to theism because so many people are into it is 1) a type of appeal to the populace (a fallacy), and 2) easily fitting with religion as an evolved phenomenon.
 
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Huntun

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that's really the favourite proof text used by a lot of atheist buddhists in order to reject ideas like rebirth, which would be beyond the pale for most of buddhist history (i.e. a heretical idea), but you should be aware of strong objections to what they see as gross misinterpretations of it by people like bikkhu bodhi and thanissaro bikkhu:
There is a difference between a person practicing Buddhism while refraining from adopting a belief in a literal understanding of rebirth and a person actually saying " The Buddha didn't teach rebirth" or "rebirth isn't a Buddhist idea". It's only the later that would be really problematic. You can practice Buddhism and only give firm support to the elements of the teaching that have been personally verified. To demand blind obedience based solely on scriptural authority, tradition, etc... would be to ignore what the Buddha actually taught.

Yes, the Buddha taught rebirth.
No, you don't need to give full acceptance to a literal understanding of the said teaching just to practice the Dharma. In fact one could even go so far as to say "I'm not even going to adopt a symbolic understanding of it as true either if/until I discover supporting evidence." Me personally I believe some form of rebirth might be possible but I can't claim to know for certain that such a thing takes places. I don't have to pretend to know something I don't know just to practice Buddhism though. I do however act as though it were true just in case. Seems like good fire insurance so to speak.
 
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bhsmte

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There's no such thing as a default position. Claiming that there must be something to theism because so many people are into it is 1) a type of appeal to the populace (a fallacy), and 2) easily fitting with religion as an evolved phenomenon.

Correct. People tend to believe certain things as a majority until it is discovered (through knowledge) that the belief was incorrect and people than slowly gravitate towards what the objective evidence will show.

Religions were obviously man made and man has also created many Gods over thousands of years and there are compelling psychological reasons for man to do so. The fact is, theism is decreasing in size worldwide and has been for decades and I believe it is because of; acquired knowledge that points away from the likelihood of Gods and a diminished psychological need in some to believe in Gods without objective evidence.

I would anticipate this trend to continue. In the meantime, nothing wrong with someone believing on faith, if it makes them a better person.
 
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Huntun

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This must be why atheists insist on defining the "default position".

Maybe there are some atheists who do that. The idea of the burden of proof wasn't invented by atheists just to make life hard for theists though. It's not something that only applies to arguments about God either. It only makes logical sense that the burden of proof wouldn't fall on the skeptic.

The only "default position" if you want to put it that way might be something like " I don't know" and not "God exists" or " God doesn't exist".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KayBys8gaJY
 
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Received

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I like this one more:

tumblr_kssq1jxGoT1qa95s8o1_1280.jpg
 
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Nooj

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There is a difference between a person practicing Buddhism while refraining from adopting a belief in a literal understanding of rebirth and a person actually saying " The Buddha didn't teach rebirth" or "rebirth isn't a Buddhist idea". It's only the later that would be really problematic. You can practice Buddhism and only give firm support to the elements of the teaching that have been personally verified. To demand blind obedience based solely on scriptural authority, tradition, etc... would be to ignore what the Buddha actually taught.

it's why you gotta have faith. be 'certain' in what you've personally experienced, have faith in what you haven't yet. you gotta have faith in the buddha, that's part of what the triple gem is about no? i take refuge in the buddha etc. this is not blind obedience but trust, and trust is not blind obedience but an opening up and giving over yourself to someone else. that is what faith is (in christianity, the word for faith is pistis, which is also the word for trust). the only thing tentative about faith is the fact that you gotta try it (tentative < ultimately from french tenter 'try').

Yes, the Buddha taught rebirth.
No, you don't need to give full acceptance to a literal understanding of the said teaching just to practice the Dharma. In fact one could even go so far as to say "I'm not even going to adopt a symbolic understanding of it as true either if/until I discover supporting evidence." Me personally I believe some form of rebirth might be possible but I can't claim to know for certain that such a thing takes places. I don't have to pretend to know something I don't know just to practice Buddhism though. I do however act as though it were true just in case. Seems like good fire insurance so to speak.
the kalama sutta is one of the early forms of pascal's wager.

p.s. what i really don't like is when atheist buddhists, who probably don't know much about buddhism anyway, get all up on my nose and are like 'oh those superstitious asians, they perverted the true rationalistic teaching of the buddha'. and for some reason the words of the buddha who lived over 2500 years ago fits the white male western idea of scientific rationalistic thinking, while throwing stinky poop on over 2500 years of the religion itself. i'm not even sure if they realise they're retreading the footsteps of orientalist racist prejudice, but they sure as heck are.
 
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Huntun

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p.s. what i really don't like is when atheist buddhists, who probably don't know much about buddhism anyway, get all up on my nose and are like 'oh those superstitious asians, they perverted the true rationalistic teaching of the buddha'.

I can empathize with that.

I don't see anything wrong with people integrating modern "Western" philosophy and science into Buddhist thought or even developing uniquely American form/s of Buddhism though. The Chinese did something similar when Buddhism was brought over from India. Zen owes almost as much to traditional Chinese thought (both Daoist and Confucian) as it does to Indian thought for example. I don't think this made the Chinese "cultural appropriators" in any negative sense of term. No one culture gets a copyright on religious and philosophical ideas. They belong to all of humanity. Now that we live in a more united global community ideas travel and evolve in all sorts of odd ways. In reality there is only Human thought now and not Western or Eastern or India and African, etc... The exchange of ideas ignores borders and everyone has a right to alter them to their hearts content.
 
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