Hell?

[yonah_mishael]

Biblical Torah is indeed a different animal than Rabbinic Torah - or Talmud. Yeshua defined Biblical Torah. When it says to follow His commandments to be His - that's not a hodge podge of pick and choose watered down if it fits my theology suggestions. It's Biblical Torah. And why is it when people mention Torah one of the main arguments against it is zeroing in on corporal punishment? Seems to me a cop out clause. We don't and won't kill someone for disobeying a law so it can't be valid. That's were Yeshua comes in. He died - was sacrificed so we are not under the penalty of death. But it doesn't negate the commandments.

Don't you feel, though, that this takes away the power of the Torah? And if it has no power, what relevance does it really have?

And the question again presents itself as to why so many MJs wear kippot and tallitot, neither of which is commanded in the Torah. Why do they prefer to express their Judaism according to rabbinic enactments?

 

[Lulav]

Yahshua is the one who prophesied, not John the baptist. And as for John who wrote revelation, he is not mentioned as a prophet, but a disciple.

That's not what it looks like here:

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is,

1. "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John]
2. and he who hated scholars [Yahshua]
3. and his disciples;
4. and that false prophet
5. and those slanderers,

will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

Yeshua is mentioned in the second position, the false prophet in fourth. I don't think they are speaking of the same person here.

 

[anisavta]

Wow. Been out of town for the weekend. Just scanned this thread. Looks like good discussion. Will respond to questions tomorrow.

 

[yonah_mishael]

That's not what it looks like here:

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is,

1. "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John]
2. and he who hated scholars [Yahshua]
3. and his disciples;
4. and that false prophet
5. and those slanderers,

will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

Yeshua is mentioned in the second position, the false prophet in fourth. I don't think they are speaking of the same person here.

After killing Hebrew Christians???????? What are you talking about?!?

 

[tm2cruz]

Wow. Been out of town for the weekend. Just scanned this thread. Looks like good discussion. Will respond to questions tomorrow.

I know... Kinda didn't really explained my original question but Im ok with it! Hehehe! New insights eh?

 

[anisavta]

I think I know where you're coming from, but I'm not sure. Are you saying that Jesus defined the Biblical (or right) way to understand the Mosaic Law or that He defined the New Covenant Torah, or some other idea?

Yeshua defined Mosaic Law by how He walked it out. No longer was it just a set of rules and regulations but He turned it into an object lesson. How do you love HaShem with all your heart? - here let me show you. His whole drash on the hills of Galilee. And He got in trouble with the religious leaders who taught rabbinic oral law (healing on Shabbat, plucking grain on Shabbat, dishonoring parents to honor the Temple etc). How do you love your neighbor as yourself? Parable of the good Samaritan, washing the talmidim feet etc. He introduced the heart into the letter of the law - adulterous woman.

 

[anisavta]

Don't you feel, though, that this takes away the power of the Torah? And if it has no power, what relevance does it really have?

And the question again presents itself as to why so many MJs wear kippot and tallitot, neither of which is commanded in the Torah. Why do they prefer to express their Judaism according to rabbinic enactments?

Absolutely not. It adds to the power of the Torah. Instead of just dealing with man's justice which seems to be the argument now. If you obey Torah then you have to complete the act with physical death if it's disobeyed. Now it's turned to the focus of what G~d intended in the first place - His holiness. When we disobey Torah we are rebelling against the Holy One and it's His justice we invoke. You sin - you die eternally. However now through the blood sacrifice of Messiah when we sin we have an advocate with the Father to satisfy His justice. As a Jew I still am required to obey Torah. But now I don't have to wait for Yom Kippur and swinging a chicken over my head to atone for my sin. And I don't have to be drug outside the city and stoned when I sin.
Messianic Jews wear tallitot for the same reason non messianic Jews do - to fulfill the command by G~d to remember His laws by the fringe on the four corners of a garment.
As to kippot when exactly did that come into being? Which of our sages spoke that command into existence and why? Why does a Hasid wear a kippah and a Reform not?
As far as I'm concerned, oral Torah is there for my reference and my choice. Oral Torah is nothing more than commentary and codification of written Torah. Opinions of men many of which disagree with each other on a given subject. If the fence does protect the original law and does not go against scripture than I have no problem using it. I light candles on Shabbat because it calls me from the secular to the holy. It reminds me that my ancestors generations back did the same thing and it connects me.
On the other hand I just can't understand how eating a turkey sandwich with processed cheese has anything to do with not boiling a kid (goat) in it's mother's milk. Never have seen a bird lactate.

 

[yedida]

Absolutely not. It adds to the power of the Torah. Instead of just dealing with man's justice which seems to be the argument now. If you obey Torah then you have to complete the act with physical death if it's disobeyed. Now it's turned to the focus of what G~d intended in the first place - His holiness. When we disobey Torah we are rebelling against the Holy One and it's His justice we invoke. You sin - you die eternally. However now through the blood sacrifice of Messiah when we sin we have an advocate with the Father to satisfy His justice. As a Jew I still am required to obey Torah. But now I don't have to wait for Yom Kippur and swinging a chicken over my head to atone for my sin. And I don't have to be drug outside the city and stoned when I sin.
Messianic Jews wear tallitot for the same reason non messianic Jews do - to fulfill the command by G~d to remember His laws by the fringe on the four corners of a garment.
As to kippot when exactly did that come into being? Which of our sages spoke that command into existence and why? Why does a Hasid wear a kippah and a Reform not?
As far as I'm concerned, oral Torah is there for my reference and my choice. Oral Torah is nothing more than commentary and codification of written Torah. Opinions of men many of which disagree with each other on a given subject. If the fence does protect the original law and does not go against scripture than I have no problem using it. I light candles on Shabbat because it calls me from the secular to the holy. It reminds me that my ancestors generations back did the same thing and it connects me.
On the other hand I just can't understand how eating a turkey sandwich with processed cheese has anything to do with not boiling a kid (goat) in it's mother's milk. Never have seen a bird lactate.

^^^^^What she said^^^^^

 

[INTJ-F]

As to kippot when exactly did that come into being? Which of our sages spoke that command into existence and why? Why does a Hasid wear a kippah and a Reform not?

Kippah's are pagan in origin and should not be worn by those who follow God and definitely should not be worn by those who have accepted Yeshua as Messiah. It is for the sun / disk "god" known as ra / aten, mithra, ba-al, tammuz, etc. (depending on culture) The disk / sun was worshiped in Egypt and was incorporated into the false "church"

During my trip in 2007 (Israel, Egypt (Cairo), Jordan (Petra), Vienna, Krakow) I saw the disk "god" in most of the artifacts in the Egypt National Museum as well as in all the churches and castles in Vienna and Krakow (obelisks throughout Israel but that's another pagan symbol)

sun disk "god"
sun disk god - Google Search

article on the kippah of the sun "god"

The Kipa

.

 

[INTJ-F]

On the other hand I just can't understand how eating a turkey sandwich with processed cheese has anything to do with not boiling a kid (goat) in it's mother's milk. Never have seen a bird lactate.

Boiling a new born kid (just born - not even dried off) in it's own mother's milk was a pagan practice (fertility ritual) If one is to believe this means to not eat meat and milk together, then one must not eat eggs and birds together since there is a command to either take the eggs or the mother to eat but not both. Yet eating eggs and chicken together is not against rabbinic rules.

Since dairy calves are either kept for replacement heifers or end up as veal, as long as you don't eat veal, you won't be drinking the milk from your steak's mother. Even if you did drink the milk from your steak's mother, what does this have to do with boiling it in it's mother's milk? The command is about kids and goats so how does this even translate into calves and cows?

I have no problem eating meat and milk together (when I can afford the meat) Abraham ate meat and milk together and even served it to Messiah Yeshua and two angels. I firmly believe Torah was known from the beginning and was just restated to Israel since they just came out of a pagan culture and may not have known / remembered the law (Shabbat was given at the Creation and Noah knew which animals were clean and which were unclean - plus sacrifices occurred both before and after the flood)

 

[Lulav]

After killing Hebrew Christians???????? What are you talking about?!?

I didn't post that, Michael did. Go back and read his post. I am only contending over the False Prophet.

 

[anisavta]

Kippah's are pagan in origin and should not be worn by those who follow God and definitely should not be worn by those who have accepted Yeshua as Messiah. Is is for the sun / disk "god" known as ra / aten, mithra, ba-al, tammuz, etc. (depending on culture) The disk / sun was worshiped in Egypt and was incorporated into the false "church"

If you look hard enough you can find that everything under the sun has a pagan influence whether it started out that way or not. Chocolate and chocolate drinks were discovered by pagans. Do you eat chocolate?

 

[yedida]

If you look hard enough you can find that everything under the sun has a pagan influence whether it started out that way or not. Chocolate and chocolate drinks were discovered by pagans. Do you eat chocolate?

Oh No!!!!! Tell me it isn't true! I have to give up chocolate? Not!

 

[INTJ-F]

If you look hard enough you can find that everything under the sun has a pagan influence whether it started out that way or not. Chocolate and chocolate drinks were discovered by pagans. Do you eat chocolate?

Not easter bunnies

God said we could eat cows and just because pagans worshiped cows does not mean they made them non-food. chocolate is considered a food by God and it is acceptable to him if I eat it (as long as it doesn't have any cochineal /carmine, civet, swine, etc. in it)

We are to not have any symbols for our worship - not crosses, fishes, or sun "god" disks. Using a sun "god" disk to worship God is as bad as Aaron making a golden calf to worship Him or as bad as when Israel started worshiping the brass serpent (something God had ordered Moses to make)

 

[Lulav]

Actually the history of chocolate that we eat today was discovered by Christians when they came to the new world. In MesoAmerica it was used in a drink for religious purposes but todays refined chocolate comes from the European concoctions.

So everybody calm down, you can eat all the chocolate you want (as long as its kosher!)

 

[GuardianShua]

Kippah's are pagan in origin and should not be worn by those who follow God and definitely should not be worn by those who have accepted Yeshua as Messiah. Is is for the sun / disk "god" known as ra / aten, mithra, ba-al, tammuz, etc. (depending on culture) The disk / sun was worshiped in Egypt and was incorporated into the false "church"

During my trip in 2007 (Israel, Egypt (Cairo), Jordan (Petra), Vienna, Krakow) I saw the disk "god" in most of the artifacts in the Egypt National Museum as well as in all the churches and castles in Vienna and Krakow (obelisks throughout Israel but that's another pagan symbol)

sun disk "god"
sun disk god - Google Search

article on the kippah of the sun "god"

The Kipa

.

I have also mentioned before that the kippah is of Pagan origin.

 

[GuardianShua]

That's not what it looks like here:

After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the New Testament writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is,

1. "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John]
2. and he who hated scholars [Yahshua]
3. and his disciples;
4. and that false prophet
5. and those slanderers,

will have no part in the future world." According to Wilhelm Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the original New Testament.

Yeshua is mentioned in the second position, the false prophet in fourth. I don't think they are speaking of the same person here.

I do not agree.

 

[yedida]

I do not agree.

That came from your msg #193. You don't agree with your own post?

 

[anisavta]

Sorry but I think "sun god disks" and kippot are a bit of a stretch.

 

[anisavta]

So everybody calm down, you can eat all the chocolate you want (as long as its kosher!)

I wish I could. Can't have chocolate because of the caffeine.