Hell?

[ChavaK]

Hell has been redacted out of the bible by those who want to justify their sins. If they believed in an eternal consequence, they would take their sin seriously. If they can sin all they want and only suffer a year punishment for it, why would they give up their sin? More justification for their sinning.

Only someone who believed in the Christian Bible would take the threat of Hell seriously. An atheistic is not going to care one little bit.
Given that, don't you think someone would not give in to sin because it displeases G-d and is against His commandments?

 

[INTJ-F]

Only someone who believed in the Christian Bible would take the threat of Hell seriously. An atheistic is not going to care one little bit.
Given that, don't you think someone would not give in to sin because it displeases G-d and is against His commandments?

/

BREAKING NEWS
​

Daniel is in the JEWISH BIBLE

 

[yedida]

/

BREAKING NEWS
​

Daniel is in the JEWISH BIBLE

INTJ
ChavaK is not Christian, that's why she distinguishes the "Christian" Bible from the Tanach, for there is a slight difference besides the order of the books.

 

[INTJ-F]

.

from chabad.org

Daniel - Chapter 12 - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Daniel - Chapter 12

1. Now at that time, Michael, the great prince, who stands over the children of your people, will be silent, and it will be a time of distress that never was since a nation existed until that time, and at that time, your people will escape, everyone who is found inscribed in the book.
2. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.
3 And the wise will shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who bring the multitudes to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

 

[ChavaK]

INTJ
ChavaK is not Christian, that's why she distinguishes the "Christian" Bible from the Tanach, for there is a slight difference besides the order of the books.

As well as differences in interpretation.....and of course since the "Christian Bible" includes the NT, I differentiate it from the "Hebrew Bible".

 

[yedida]

As well as differences in interpretation.....and of course since the "Christian Bible" includes the NT, I differentiate it from the "Hebrew Bible".

Yes, I know. There are some passages that are quite different from the Christian Bible; and those differences make the passage sound so much better. I absolutely love my Stone Tanach. (Now if I could just get to the point of reading the Hebrew side with understanding! That would be so great.)

 

[INTJ-F]

And the "Hebrew Bible" contains the same scripture and language that I previously quotes in Daniel on eternal rewards and eternal punishment

 

[yedida]

And the "Hebrew Bible" contains the same scripture and language that I previously quotes in Daniel on eternal rewards and eternal punishment

Perhaps Steve will return and see the passages you found. I sure didn't remember those!! I had meant to tell you - Good find - didn't notice that I hadn't done it

 

[INTJ-F]

Perhaps Steve will return and see the passages you found. I sure didn't remember those!! I had meant to tell you - Good find - didn't notice that I hadn't done it

It's probably been redacted in his bible

 

[tm2cruz]

I'm a Christian and I would like to mention Jesus/Yeshua told a story about rich man and Lazarus... Guys any comments on that?

 

[INTJ-F]

I'm a Christian and I would like to mention Jesus/Yeshua told a story about rich man and Lazarus... Guys any comments on that?

I mentioned that either in this thread or another. I was showing those who do not believe in the New Testament that the concept of eternal rewards / punishment was not invented by Yeshua and it is in the Old Testament too.

 

[visionary]

Since there has to be a harmony with all of scripture.. I would like to point out that the end result of this "burning in hell forever" does have an ending.. not that the result will be for all eternity.. but that the body and soul ends up "ashes."

Malachi 4:3
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


even Satan's end..

Ezekiel 28:18
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

For further study into the whole subject.. I did a thread a while back..

http://www.christianforums.com/t1529924/

 

[visionary]

I'm a Christian and I would like to mention Jesus/Yeshua told a story about rich man and Lazarus... Guys any comments on that?

It was the one story that Yeshua told in which the main character within the story is named, placing this in another catagory and not a parable... I think our Lord is telling a "deja vu" moment..... and the only time that the two camps are close enough to have that type of conversation is when the wicked gather around the camp of God and the fires are ignited.

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[GuardianShua]

I'm a Christian and I would like to mention Jesus/Yeshua told a story about rich man and Lazarus... Guys any comments on that?

That story is an obvious corruption because it disagrees with scriptures. Yahshua would not have said that.
The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, and before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person. It also contradicts where God said “you will surly die.”

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Him in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. After the return from Babylon the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” are the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:3
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

Genesis 3:4
"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Luke 20:16
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Most likely the word Hades replaced the word Gehenna or grave when translated.

Revelation 21
The New Jerusalem
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[GuardianShua]

So you believe there is no consequences of sin???

More redaction of scripture - this time to justify the rejection of Messiah Yeshua


Daniel 12

1 “At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

The SHAME is what the condemned feel before they die. EVERLASTING CONTEMPT is what the elect feel toward the condemned.

 

[visionary]

The SHAME is what the condemned feel before they die. EVERLASTING CONTEMPT is what the elect feel toward the condemned.

The condemned feel the same rebellion they have always had.. it is contempt for God... an everlasting contempt... others will feel the same as Judas for being wrong.. shame

 

[yedida]

MTAA,
The saved could never feel "contempt" for another person. We are to walk and act like our Master. He could get seethingly angry at those who opposed him, but I can't recall one time where we're told he felt contempt for anyone.

 

[visionary]

MTAA,
The saved could never feel "contempt" for another person. We are to walk and act like our Master. He could get seethingly angry at those who opposed him, but I can't recall one time where we're told he felt contempt for anyone.

amen.. probably more like frustration that we were not able to get through that thick skull... and hardened heart.

 

[aniello]

MTAA,
The saved could never feel "contempt" for another person. We are to walk and act like our Master. He could get seethingly angry at those who opposed him, but I can't recall one time where we're told he felt contempt for anyone.

Mat 23:13 ButG1161 woeG3759 unto you,G5213 scribesG1122 andG2532 Pharisees,G5330 hypocrites!G5273 forG3754 ye shut upG2808 theG3588 kingdomG932 of heavenG3772 againstG1715 men:G444 forG1063 yeG5210 neitherG3756 go inG1525 yourselves, neitherG3761 sufferG863 ye them that are enteringG1525 to go in.G1525

Oh I dunno. Seems like He has a fairly ripping contempt for these guys in Matt. 23, all the "Woes...". He's calling them a bunch of phonies, fighting words to those old boys.

 

[chunkofcoal]

That story is an obvious corruption because it disagrees with scriptures. Yahshua would not have said that.

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude Him in matters of life and death.

I've been thinking about that story but from a different point of view. It's not about heaven or hell, it's about whether or not someone would believe if someone came to them from the dead. I found the following quote and have wondered whether or not it would be true. -

Rabbi Nachman of Breslev - "If one dead soul were permitted to visit the philosophers and scientists as they sit theorizing, it would be the end of all their theories."

Maybe what Yeshua said about if they don't believe Moses and the Prophets, then neither would they believe if someone rose from the dead applies to scientists and philosophers.
Maybe the five brothers of the rich man were scientists and philosophers?