Hell

[franklin]

I mean hell as in...someone close to you has died. Isn't that a sort of hell?

I guess since you put it that way then maybe yes. On the other hand I don't like to use religious terms like hell, faith, sin, belief etc. Losiing a loved one is very saddening and over time healing comes.

 

[Legion.As.One]

From some religious perspectives you can be redeemed from hell.
Religion is embedded in almost every society, regardless of culture, and whether we like it or not.

 

[franklin]

From some religious perspectives you can be redeemed from hell.
Religion is embedded in almost every society, regardless of culture, and whether we like it or not.

Well I don't like it and that's why I reject religion and we should never lose site of the fact that we as atheists should never allow it to go unchallenged. If we do, then superstition wins by default.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Well I don't like it and that's why I reject religion and we should never lose site of the fact that we as atheists should never allow it to go unchallenged. If we do, then superstition wins by default.

Just to play Devil's advocate (it's my opium): would that be so bad?

 

[dnihila]

If in almost every religion, it is clearly pointed out that if you don't follow their path, you're going to 'hell' (if you will). So, it doesn't really matter, everyone's going to 'hell' anyway.
Not that I believe in hell, I'm just pointing it out.
Views?

Your comment is so funny.
It is true that if you are not a follower of any other religion different than yours, you are going to Hell from their teachings of Hell and Heaven.
The main point of warning you from Hell and inviting you into Heaven is to show you what are the Heavenly rewards for wrong doers and good ones.
So, you may ask yourself the question:
What's good and what's evil?
And are your defintions for good and evil suitable for anyone, anyplace and anytime? And will they be useful in the future? Because, future to us is guess and predict.
You can make a research to study virtue throughout time from history till present time and what were their impacts on the society?
You may take every religion and study its practices that lead to Heaven and what are their reflections on people?
To understand why people deserve to go to Heaven in every religion.
You may also discover a measurment for your life system according to these beliefs.
You may also see the similarities that gathers all these religions.
And you have to know that no one have the right to tell anyone that he/she is going to Hell. Because it is a Heavenly scale and the Almighty is the One to decide not us.
If we judge a fruit of a tree before we plant the seed, then our judgement is false.
Life is a living proof of good and evil, happiness and sadness, dark and light, day and night, water and fire, male and female, life and death,...etc
And there is no third choice among them. You are a thinker, think about it. Why opposites exist in life? And remember that there is always a slight quick connection between the two opposites to maintain the perfection of life in order to complete the circle.
It is the same for Hell and Heaven. Hell represent evil, sadness, darkness,fire ( a symbol of destruction),death...etc
Heaven represent good, happiness, light, water ( a symbol of life ), life...etc.
As long as you believe in what you have in life by trusting people whom are not different than you. You must take your brain and your level of thinking higher than what people said and proved. The way they did something in life, you also can do the same. Why do you take them seriously more than a source of Heavenly knowledge?A knowledge that is never made by humans.
You may deny the existance of Hell or Heaven the same way scientists in history deny many facts which are proven in our days.
Take Earth as an example, do you know what's going on in the galaxy?
Do you know what's behind the planets we know?
This knowledge that we know is based on equipments and theories which can be seen.
While religion is based on faith in the unseen and the unknown with its own equipments of practice and belief.
Your path can't go further than the planet. But the religious path and its tools ( practices ) will take you to the unknown but you have to choose the direction.
Religious people are connected to the unseen and the unknown because they think with their spirit which is eternal. Do you see your soul? Do you see your spirit? but we know it exists. That's how religious people think.
But athiests think with their minds and their five senses which are temporary and will be gone after death.
The One who created this universe -which scientist till now are studying and discovering it by using theories - is capable of creating what we can't see, can't feel and can't prove.
In life people are all equal and they should be united together like a chain which is strong. But If they are seperated by the differences in color, race, social level, knowledge...etc then we no longer fair to each other.
Athiests have nothing to gather them, everyone of you has his/her own role model, theories, life system...etc.
If computers are the same but look different. Why can't you at least be like one of your own inventions?
helpful, positive, united, able to change, capable of adapting the old and the new, ...etc

 

[Wiccan_Child]

While religion is based on faith in the unseen and the unknown with its own equipments of practice and belief.

Doesn't it bother you to based things on faith, on the unseen, on the unknown?

There's a lot of things we can't see, and that we don't know. I can't see fairies at the bottom of my garden; should I have faith in them, too?

Religious people are connected to the unseen and the unknown because they think with their spirit which is eternal. Do you see your soul? Do you see your spirit? but we know it exists.

No, we don't. We have spiritual people telling us that it exists, but they've never actually said what it is, or given us any reason to believe it exists. It's like those garden fairies.

The One who created this universe -which scientist till now are studying and discovering it by using theories - is capable of creating what we can't see, can't feel and can't prove.

If we can't see it, feel it, or prove it, how do we know this 'One' is actually creating anything at all?

 

[dnihila]

Doesn't it bother you to based things on faith, on the unseen, on the unknown?
It doesn't.
Because I experienced what I know and I already have it.Why not experiencing what I don't know and never see.
I lived the material life and knew by the sense of touching the difference between the cold and the hot, the dead and the alive, the dangerous and the safe...etc. but why do I have to touch while I already have the knowledge to make me not use my five senses.
And don't forget that there are humans living among us, who can't see, can't hear, can't touch/walk, can't taste/speak, can't smell and can't think. Do you think that they belong to your world of Athiests or our world of believers? You give them one chance which is this life by throwing them on hard rocks. But believers do tell them that they have another chance to get what they lost and more.
Athiests life is for the lucky and the happy but believers' life is for the sick, the poor, the sad, the disabled, the blind, the deaf..etc.
You might give them help but you can't give them back what they lost.
And you take hope from them that this life is their only chance and they will never have what they lost.
Heavenly teachings teach us that we are all equal and will be treated equally. Some Athiests problem is that they don't think of anyone else but themselves. Their sight is so short which goes no further than their shadow.

Athiests can never live without their five senses to learn about the material world.
But I prefered to use my spirit to learn. Because without it, I will be dead and not able to learn.
Spiritual wit is higher than materialistic wit. The first is based on what you can't see, hear, touch, smell or taste unlike the second one.
Why do you accept inventions that never exist before while you can't use your spirit ( the unseen )?
My mind is free of human limits when I think spiritually but I will be bounded forever to what theories says whenever I use my materialistic thinking.
There's a lot of things we can't see, and that we don't know. I can't see fairies at the bottom of my garden; should I have faith in them, too?
And why do you have to believe in fairies?
We believe in Angels because they guard us, they pray to the Almighty to save us, they carried the Heavenly message to prophets and they saved many prophets from danger.
To believe in something means that you are connected to it.
I can say that I don't believe in dragons because it has nothing to do with religion. I didn't see them and they are only mentioned in fairytales.
When you believe in a religion means that this belief has a direct impact on your spirit and your life.

No, we don't. We have spiritual people telling us that it exists, but they've never actually said what it is, or given us any reason to believe it exists. It's like those garden fairies.
Your question about the spirit ( the soul ) was asked to prophet Muhammed ( peace be upon him) 1500 years ago:
17:85
And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."
But you might think of the first human.
Who was he?
Where did he come from?
How he became alive after being a statue of clay while he has all his organs? What was the missing thing in his creation to make all of his organs alive?

If we can't see it, feel it, or prove it, how do we know ___ 'One' is actually creating anything at all?

Then explain to me the changing of weather? Why weather changes from normal into natural disasters? It is the space influence on the Earth. So, what is the thing that changes the space? What is that power?
Notice that everything is depending on the other like the circle of life.
Why it is only the humans ( who can think ) are the ones who can never be in harmony all of them all together like nature?
Why creatures that humans can't control have their own system which never failed. Why Earth is created before humans?
Why does it have the round shape which we don't know where the starting point is.
Why everything in life should have a starting point and ending point.
And the circle is called the life of a particular plant or an animal.
If the earth didn't have humans when it was created, then this means that it didn't have plants, animals, water, land.....etc.
This means that humans arrived after a series of additionals to the Earth. Who added them? And if nature is creating itself? why didn't it creat itself all at once- plants, animals, humans....etc.
just look at the different natures of everything on Earth. Plants can't bring out animals and animals can't creat plants while humans are not capable of creating animals or plants. So, who have this Power if it is not the nature? Why do you believe in world powers while you are not able to believe in the Creator?
But this is to show you that there is always the One who created everything.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Doesn't it bother you to based things on faith, on the unseen, on the unknown?

It doesn't.
Because I experienced what I know and I already have it.Why not experiencing what I don't know and never see.
I lived the material life and knew by the sense of touching the difference between the cold and the hot, the dead and the alive, the dangerous and the safe...etc. but why do I have to touch while I already have the knowledge to make me not use my five senses.
And don't forget that there are humans living among us, who can't see, can't hear, can't touch/walk, can't taste/speak, can't smell and can't think. Do you think that they belong to your world of Athiests or our world of believers? You give them one chance which is this life by throwing them on hard rocks. But believers do tell them that they have another chance to get what they lost and more.
Athiests life is for the lucky and the happy but believers' life is for the sick, the poor, the sad, the disabled, the blind, the deaf..etc.
You might give them help but you can't give them back what they lost.
And you take hope from them that this life is their only chance and they will never have what they lost.

Perhaps, but that's hardly an argument for theism, is it? We want to know what is, not what feels good. It's all very well and good pretending to the blind and infirm that there is some magical hereafter where all their dreams come true, but that doesn't tell us whether it actually exists.

Heavenly teachings teach us that we are all equal and will be treated equally. Some Athiests problem is that they don't think of anyone else but themselves. Their sight is so short which goes no further than their shadow.

That is the problem of some theists too.

Athiests can never live without their five senses to learn about the material world.
But I prefered to use my spirit to learn. Because without it, I will be dead and not able to learn.
Spiritual wit is higher than materialistic wit. The first is based on what you can't see, hear, touch, smell or taste unlike the second one.
Why do you accept inventions that never exist before while you can't use your spirit ( the unseen )?
My mind is free of human limits when I think spiritually but I will be bounded forever to what theories says whenever I use my materialistic thinking.

You forget that these theories have to be thought up in the first place. Where do you think the Einsteinian model of spacetime came from?

There's a lot of things we can't see, and that we don't know. I can't see fairies at the bottom of my garden; should I have faith in them, too?

And why do you have to believe in fairies?
We believe in Angels because they guard us, they pray to the Almighty to save us, they carried the Heavenly message to prophets and they saved many prophets from danger.
To believe in something means that you are connected to it.
I can say that I don't believe in dragons because it has nothing to do with religion. I didn't see them and they are only mentioned in fairytales.
When you believe in a religion means that this belief has a direct impact on your spirit and your life.

I disagree. When I say I believe in something, I'm saying I think it exists, or I think it's true. You say you believe in angels, and God. Why?

No, we don't. We have spiritual people telling us that it exists, but they've never actually said what it is, or given us any reason to believe it exists. It's like those garden fairies.

Your question about the spirit ( the soul ) was asked to prophet Muhammed ( peace be upon him) 1500 years ago:
17:85
And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, "The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little."
But you might think of the first human.
Who was he?
Where did he come from?
How he became alive after being a statue of clay while he has all his organs? What was the missing thing in his creation to make all of his organs alive?

I do not believe the first human was a statue of clay. I don't even believe there was a first human at all.

Are you asking what separates living flesh from, say, rocks?

If we can't see it, feel it, or prove it, how do we know ___ 'One' is actually creating anything at all?

Then explain to me the changing of weather? Why weather changes from normal into natural disasters? It is the space influence on the Earth. So, what is the thing that changes the space? What is that power?
Notice that everything is depending on the other like the circle of life.
Why it is only the humans ( who can think ) are the ones who can never be in harmony all of them all together like nature?
Why creatures that humans can't control have their own system which never failed. Why Earth is created before humans?
Why does it have the round shape which we don't know where the starting point is.

I could answer all of those questions without once appealing to some 'Creator' or 'One', but I don't think that's what you're looking for.

Why everything in life should have a starting point and ending point.
And the circle is called the life of a particular plant or an animal.
If the earth didn't have humans when it was created, then this means that it didn't have plants, animals, water, land.....etc.
This means that humans arrived after a series of additionals to the Earth. Who added them? And if nature is creating itself? why didn't it creat itself all at once- plants, animals, humans....etc.

Because nature takes time. It is, after all, just one big system interacting with itself. You can't have humans before you have the Earth, so that is why everything wasn't created at once: some things just so happened to come after others, and some things necessarily came after others.

The real question is: why should everything have come at once?

just look at the different natures of everything on Earth. Plants can't bring out animals and animals can't creat plants while humans are not capable of creating animals or plants. So, who have this Power if it is not the nature? Why do you believe in world powers while you are not able to believe in the Creator?

Because I can see world powers, but I can't see a Creator. All the evidence in the world points to a natural, mundane, and unguided origin of life, the Earth, and the universe.

We know how life can form on its own, without some divine Creator being involved. We know how planets and stars and galaxies can form on their own.

There is nothing in this universe that requires a Creator as an explanation, though I would very much like it if you could cite an example to the contrary.

But this is to show you that there is always the One who created everything.

It would help if you actually showed something, instead of resorting to rhetoric and sophistry.

 

[Legion.As.One]

Good argument, Wiccan_Child (I see you've changed your beliefs).
I, personally, don't believe that any one sentient being could've created the universe. How can one thing exist in a 'place' that is no thing and contains no thing? I believe that it can't.

I don't pretend to explain everything that happens. But I try to learn about it, to further improve my knowledge and understanding of things.

What's good and what's evil?

Good and evil are personal opinions. What is good to one person, may be evil to another.

Why opposites exist in life?

I believe opposites exist to balance each other, yes. But to create perfect order? Not a chance. There is no perfect order, its a constant battle, there is never equality. It is all chaotic, although, even chaos has a certain order. How is it possible for perfect balance?

Take Earth as an example, do you know what's going on in the galaxy?
Do you know what's behind the planets we know?

I don't think anyone/thing can know all that. Granted, there may be some species in another solar system that know more than us, but how can someone/thing know everything?

Your path can't go further than the planet. But the religious path and its tools ( practices ) will take you to the unknown but you have to choose the direction.

My belief takes me much further than any religion. I create my path and I learn from my mistakes. I challenge the unknown, I don't rely on being told what to do and what to do, nor do I rely on anyone or thing to help me. I must help myself. Isn't that the only way to suceed?

Do you see your soul? Do you see your spirit?

I don't believe in souls in life or death, and I believe a spirit is a positive determination to suceed. In other words a feeling, or, abstract noun. Like 'happy'. How do you believe in something that has not shown itself to you?

Athiests have nothing to gather them, everyone of you has his/her own role model, theories, life system

Atheists do have something to gather them. They all think. Their differences make them the same. It is a strange but true concept. Aren't we unique, just like everybody else?

Why can't you at least be like one of your own inventions?
helpful, positive, united, able to change, capable of adapting the old and the new

Atheists are people too. They have their different views and some are adaptable and some aren't. You say atheists have nothing to gather them, but you just implied that we aren't helpful, positive, united, able to change or capable of adaptation.

Humans are all united, but we are all individuals in a swarm.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Then explain to me the changing of weather? Why weather changes from normal into natural disasters? It is the space influence on the Earth. So, what is the thing that changes the space? What is that power?

Are you actually trying to suggest that the weather depends upon supernatural powers? Please, read some basic meteorology 101 manual. And perhaps something about plate tectonics as well, to cover natural disasters unrelated to the weather.
By the way, natural disasters are just as "normal" as other weather phenomena - they just occur with less frequency.

Why does it have the round shape which we don't know where the starting point is.

That's the way matter accumulates. It's called "gravity".

If the earth didn't have humans when it was created, then this means that it didn't have plants, animals, water, land.....etc.

That does not follow (although I agree that biological life didn't exist on this planet when it first accumulated out of the dust cloud). For life to form, you need specific conditions, particularly liquid water.

This means that humans arrived after a series of additionals to the Earth. Who added them? And if nature is creating itself? why didn't it creat itself all at once- plants, animals, humans....etc.
just look at the different natures of everything on Earth. Plants can't bring out animals and animals can't creat plants while humans are not capable of creating animals or plants. So, who have this Power if it is not the nature? Why do you believe in world powers while you are not able to believe in the Creator?

You are in serious need of some studies. Read. Learn. Grasp. There are plenty of good books on the topic of biology, many of which are specifically aimed at laymen without a scientific background.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Good argument, Wiccan_Child (I see you've changed your beliefs).

I'm so good I convinced myself .

 

[Legion.As.One]

hahah. Yeah, many of your arguments seemed very atheist. I used to be a practising pagan... I saw my arguments and beliefs totally went against what I thought I believed. You have very good arguments too, by the way.

 

[franklin]

Just to play Devil's advocate (it's my opium): would that be so bad?

I'm not really sure what you're asking me here?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I'm not really sure what you're asking me here?

You said:

Well I don't like [that religion pervades modern society] and that's why I reject religion and we should never lose site of the fact that we as atheists should never allow it to go unchallenged. If we do, then superstition wins by default.

Would such a scenario be so bad? Is the belief that, say, we meet out loved ones in the hereafter, such a terrible thing?

Also, you say that you reject religion because it pervades society. Surely that's just an inverted form of the fallacious argumentum ad populum ("lots of people believe it, so it must be true")?

 

[franklin]

Y

Would such a scenario be so bad? Is the belief that, say, we meet out loved ones in the hereafter, such a terrible thing?

Of course it would be a nice idea but it's not reality. It is fantasy. It's something based on superstition that controls peoples minds that in some cases can be very harmful. So in a sense, yes, it is a bad idea and should be rejected by any rational thinking individual who is guided by reason and logic. It gives people false hopes about something that is never going to happen and it cheapens life here and now.

 

[sbvera13]

Would such a scenario be so bad? Is the belief that, say, we meet out loved ones in the hereafter, such a terrible thing?

I don't believe it's the belief itself that causes the most harm, although some certainly do (discouraging condom use in Africa, for example). Rather, the most dangerous aspect of religion is that it promotes and enables tribalism and groupthink.

Hell is an excellent example; because of this teaching we have an entire demographic that believes there is another demographic that deserves eternal torture. That emphasis is important, because it is a very short step from pity for the "fallen", to hatred. Fundamentalist Islam is in this respect very simliar to Fundamentalist Christianity. I find myself extremely fortunate that I live in a country where secular philosopy forms the basis of our laws and morality, otherwise we might see violence from our Fundamentalist community in the same way Islam does. In fact, sometimes we do (abortion bombings for example).

 

[kotwebck]

If you are sure that you know what happens when you die, you would not be involved in a senseless debate about someone's beliefs.

Unless somehing is pushing you to fill an empty feeling, and you need to investigate. (In a strange way?)

Been there and done it and got the scars as proof ... guys when the laughter dries up, and you are all alone ... it's you and that face in the mirror ... then you'll know that you did not know and you were bilnded from the truth.

What's real is always invisible, the truth is always hidden. What's left and visible is always an distraction to keep you from what you really need to know.

For some it will be too late.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

If you are sure that you know what happens when you die, you would not be involved in a senseless debate about someone's beliefs.

Oh, on the contrary! It's quite interesting to gauge why other people would deny that consciousness is a product of the brain, and thus subject to be destroyed when the central nervous system breaks down.

Been there and done it and got the scars as proof ... guys when the laughter dries up, and you are all alone ... it's you and that face in the mirror ... then you'll know that you did not know and you were bilnded from the truth.

What's real is always invisible, the truth is always hidden. What's left and visible is always an distraction to keep you from what you really need to know.

For some it will be too late.

And why is that, do you think, with an all-knowing God who knows better than we do what would be necessary in order to make us "see the light"? No matter which way you try to interpret it, the hell-doctrine never makes sense.

 

[kotwebck]

And why is that, do you think, with an all-knowing God who knows better than we do what would be necessary in order to make us "see the light"? No matter which way you try to interpret it, the hell-doctrine never makes sense.

There is more ... all you have to do is ask God to show you, he will, if you really want the truth ... look for it.

You'll experience the red pill/blue pill thing from the movie "The Matrix" your whole life will change, even the world starts changing around you, and man it is a good change.

Try it.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

If you are sure that you know what happens when you die, you would not be involved in a senseless debate about someone's beliefs.

Well, no one knows what happens when we die, so I guess your point is moot.

Unless somehing is pushing you to fill an empty feeling, and you need to investigate. (In a strange way?)

The desire for knowledge? To understand why people believe what they do? The chance to engage in stimulating debate? I know that's why I'm here.
Why are you here, kotwebck, if not to taunt us?

Been there and done it and got the scars as proof ... guys when the laughter dries up, and you are all alone ... it's you and that face in the mirror ... then you'll know that you did not know and you were bilnded from the truth.

So we better get converting, right?

What's real is always invisible, the truth is always hidden. What's left and visible is always an distraction to keep you from what you really need to know.

How deliciously cryptic.

For some it will be too late.

dun dun DUNNN!!!