Hell

[Soul Searcher]

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

which "hell" are we talking about sheol hades gehenna surely not tartarus

none of these words from the scriptures equates to the mythical place where god tortures unbelievers for eternity !

think about it for a minute the bible says He is not willing that any should perish and also asks who has resisted His intention.

think about it for a minute He commands us LOVE YOUR ENEMIES and yet we say He will torture His forever?

as He keeps trying to tell people it is His mercy not His torture that endures forever

but who has ears to hear?

Amen?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Too many people misconceive the Lake of Fire to be a place of eternal torment, it is not that but rather where unbelievers will be cast in to burn up (be reduced to ashes, perish, face the Second Death).

Another possible view here, and one that I hold is that the lake of fire is the trail by fire where all mens works are judged by fire. The hay, straw and stubble are burned up, the gold and precious stones are purified. Each of us has some persious stones and some stubble within, few will it be who overcome and many will suffer but the suffering is temporary. This could very well be the baptism by fire as mentioned in the gospels. I do not have the references handy at the moment but there are several verses that do show this concept has merit.

 

[daverain]

More people are turned off from Christianity because of the concept of eternal torture in "hell" than anything else.

What I see...

is that people are turned off

from a belief that

- GOD - ,

-WANTS THEM THERE- (no He doesn't)

(yet people reject Him, because of this -FALLEN CREATION- that had to -FALL- , and produce many lies about the nature of God . )

How can one -DENY- that hell is a place of suffering?

(Have The Jehovah Witnesses gained -THAT MUCH POWER- ? )

------------------------------------

Please consider the -STORY- (not parable) of The Rich Man and Lazerus:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Luke 16:19 to 31
----------------
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.


20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--

28for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'



30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'

31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"


-----------------------------------

(What about -THAT- ? )







Peace in Christ.





.

 

[ertsky]

they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"


LOL yes and someone has risen from the dead and still hell preachers won't repent of this evil doctrine of demons.

hell preachers try to see that you that you may be blind in this

i ask this because a few short weeks ago i was blind but He who has the eyesalve can give sight to the blind still !

i ertsky the flatulent beg you to see that the parable of lazarus and the rich man is in no way a parable about eternal torture

try this link

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html

 

[Jerrysch]

Another possible view here, and one that I hold is that the lake of fire is the trail by fire where all mens works are judged by fire. The hay, straw and stubble are burned up, the gold and precious stones are purified. Each of us has some persious stones and some stubble within, few will it be who overcome and many will suffer but the suffering is temporary. This could very well be the baptism by fire as mentioned in the gospels. I do not have the references handy at the moment but there are several verses that do show this concept has merit.

Rev. 20:14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

What you are referring to is a different event. This passage makes it clear as to the final abode of those whose name is not written in the Book of Life, is yours written there?Do you know for sure? Don't you think it would be worth finding out?

 

[Jerrysch]

NothingButTheBlood,

Maybe I didn't make myself clear, it's not my husband that expects to get to heaven, how can he if he doesn't think it exists? It's my fear that if I'm to accept what your all saying and I believe in Christ and repent my sins and my husband, and the rest of my family and friends don't see things that way then they will go to hell, and I will be without them. It's an incredibly hard thing to accept.

So are you somehow suggesting that to be with your family and freinds in hell would be better than being in heaven without them?

We all have to make choises for ourselves, you will have to choose fro yourself. We have been told that there is nothing worse than to end up in hell, but I will present you with one...to know that your loved ones are following you to a Christless eternity. That is what you must be concerned with, what about your soul? What about your sin? Just what are you going to do about it? Would it be worth your time to discover a way to find forgivenance for your sin?

 

[Lpe04]

What I see...

is that people are turned off

from a belief that

- GOD - ,

-WANTS THEM THERE- (no He doesn't)

(yet people reject Him, because of this -FALLEN CREATION- that had to -FALL- , and produce many lies about the nature of God . )

How can one -DENY- that hell is a place of suffering?

(Have The Jehovah Witnesses gained -THAT MUCH POWER- ? )

------------------------------------

Please consider the -STORY- (not parable) of The Rich Man and Lazerus:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Luke 16:19 to 31
----------------
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.


20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'

27"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--

28for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'



30"But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'

31"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"


-----------------------------------

(What about -THAT- ? )





Peace in Christ.


.

Biblical scholars do not hold this story to be the representative of the after life, plus it contradicts the rest of God's Word so there must be an explanation (and there is ). First, you have to understand that Jesus spoke in parables (stories). He told His disciples that He spoke in parables (stories) to those who were unleared and wouldn't listen (they were so hard hearted and set in their beliefs) unless He spoke to them in these stories (parables) and their beliefs. He said to His disciples He would reveal the truth. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a story based off the Greek belief at the time in which the sould lived for ever and was tormented in the underworld by the Greek god Hades (sound like a common belief nowadays?)

If you research the beliefs at the time you will see that it matches exactly with what Jesus was talking about, and He was obviously addressing people who held this belief, since this was the only way they would listen (for instance, if you start preaching things from the Bible to Islamic people, they are probably not going to listen to you, you must talk with them about what they know first). The whole thing about there being a river that seperates the place of paradise and eternal torment and that those being tormented can see those in paradise is obviously based off the Greek and Talmudic belief at the time and also corresponded with a popular Palestinian story circulating at the time based on the reversal of roles for rich and poor people in the next life.


Luke 16:19-31 describes Lazarus, the beggar, after he died, as being in “Abraham’s bosom.” Since the Bible clearly says that in death there is no consciousness, this story must be figurative, and it is. In his book, Are The Dead Alive Now? Victor Paul Wierwille points out that in:


...two ancient Greek manuscripts—the Bezae Caulabrigiensis and the Koridethian-Caesarean text—words are included which have been deleted in other translations. Both of these ancient manuscripts begin Luke 16:19 with the words: eipen de kai heteran parabolen, which translated means, “And He said also another parable.” 1

Edward Fudge states that the basic plot of this parable, “the reversal of earthly fortunes after death, was familiar in popular Palestinian stories of Jesus’ time.” 2



Of this section, Sir Anthony Buzzard says:



The opening words, “Now there was a certain man...”, remind us of the story of the Prodigal son and the parable of the Unjust Steward, which begin with the same phrase, and caution us that we are dealing with a story with a moral rather than a straight discourse on eschatology. “It is inconceivable,” says F.W. Farrar (Smith’s Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 2, p. 1038) “to ground the proof of an important theological doctrine on a passage which confessedly abounds in Jewish metaphor.” 3

Verse 23 is a key to understanding it as a parable, which is a figure of speech and not literal. The verse begins “And in hell [hades=gravedom] he lift up his eyes ....” This makes it clear that it cannot be taken literally. In verse 24, we see that Lazarus has a tongue also. How could a disembodied “soul” have eyes and a tongue? This is more evidence that the story Jesus told was not true to fact.



In context, Jesus had been addressing the Pharisees in parables from the beginning of Chapter Fifteen: the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son and the unjust steward. Luke 16:14 tells us that the Pharisees, who loved money, heard him and ridiculed him. In verse fifteen, Jesus told them that their values were warped and ungodly. The subsequent parable of the rich man and Lazarus perfectly illustrated for them the difference between what they esteemed and what God esteemed.



Not understanding this as a parable, one might think that Jesus meant to depict an immediate “heaven or hell” kind of afterlife. However, He told this parable to the Pharisees in light of their Talmudic traditions and their belief in immediate reward or punishment after death. It was they who coined the phrase “Abraham’s bosom” as one of several afterlife locations. 4 Jesus did not intend to contradict the entire Old Testament and teach survival after death.



His primary intention was to show that the Pharisees were so evil that even if someone rose from the dead they wouldn’t listen to him. He did so by hypothetically stating that, even if one were to return from the place of the dead (which the Pharisees, having forsaken the Old Testament in favor of their traditions, believed in), those who refused to believe Moses and the prophets still would not believe (verse 31). How prophetic, as was evidenced by His own resurrection from the dead, which many of them did not believe.



Of this account, The New Bible Dictionary says the following:



Probably the story of Dives [according to tradition, the rich man’s name] and Lazarus (Luke 16:1-9) is a parable which makes use of current Jewish thinking and is not intended to teach anything about the state of the dead. 5



There is even more biblical evidence that this record is a parable. Remember that Revelation 21:4 states that, after all the judgments, there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain. How could saved believers possibly enjoy the riches of eternity if they were constantly being interrupted by burning people shouting up at them for water?

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free" www.TruthOrTradition.com

God Bless

 

[Soul Searcher]

Rev. 20:14Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

What you are referring to is a different event. This passage makes it clear as to the final abode of those whose name is not written in the Book of Life, is yours written there?Do you know for sure? Don't you think it would be worth finding out?

Ahh the second death, so little info on this subject. Did you ever consider that the second death could be the death of sin, and not sinners?

Actually the bible does not tells us much about the book of life, some believe it is a metaphor for Jesus, If thats the case then yes it is.

 

[daverain]

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a story based off the Greek belief at the time in which the sould lived for ever and was tormented in the underworld by the Greek god Hades (sound like a common belief nowadays?)




Remember that Revelation 21:4 states that, after all the judgments, there will be no more sorrow, crying or pain.

http://www.

Paragraph 1:
------------

I feel that it is -NOT- a parable...

because there is a -NAME- in the story (=The name of: LAZARUS) .

(Please address -WHY- there would be a name in -ONE- of Jesus' -PARABLES-,

-YET-

-NO (human) NAMES-

are found in what we're -TOLD-

(in scripture) are -ACTUAL PARABLES?


Paragraph 2:
------------

"No more sorrow, crying or pain..."

is a gaurantee for -BELIEVERS-.

(Hence, there could be 'sorrow crying and pain', for those who reject God. )








Peace in Christ.






.

 

[ertsky]

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

what does ALL mean ?

does it mean only the believers (blessed though they be), what about all the people who died without ever hearing the gospel ?

i don't believe it is possible to experience Gods best and teach and believe that God will torture people forever.

Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold having been fired by fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, and your shame and nakedness may not be revealed. And anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.

he that has an ear let him hear the Crucified One !

 

[daverain]

Yes , but...

I feel that God -doesn't want anyone to perish...

-YET-

The enemy -DOES- .



-IF- he (=the enemy) is bringing people to this

-DARK PLACE- ,

-THEN-

people need to know that it's real...


and that - JESUS - DIED FOR THEM...

TO

SAVE THEM

FROM THERE.



(does -THAT- sound like a GOD who wants to torture people? )





Peace in Christ.




.

 

[repoland2]

I am in agreement.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

I am in agreement.

With whom?

 

[ertsky]

hey dave i really appreciate your patience

i am one who believes that He saves from the law of sin and death and tranfers us into the wonderful domain of the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

i also believe in the terror of the Lord

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

and that it's sad to miss out on Gods best

i think men will turn to Him if they can see Him in us rather than out of an unscriptural torture thingo

but i sense a brother in you for sure

with much love in Him

ert

 

[Lpe04]

Paragraph 1:
------------

I feel that it is -NOT- a parable...

because there is a -NAME- in the story (=The name of: LAZARUS) .

(Please address -WHY- there would be a name in -ONE- of Jesus' -PARABLES-,

-YET-

-NO (human) NAMES-

are found in what we're -TOLD-

(in scripture) are -ACTUAL PARABLES?


Paragraph 2:
------------

"No more sorrow, crying or pain..."

is a gaurantee for -BELIEVERS-.

(Hence, there could be 'sorrow crying and pain', for those who reject God. )

.

Well, for you to reject the rest of God's Word because of a name, I shouldn't even answer this, but I will. Lazarus was a common Talmudic contraction of the contraction of the Hebrew name Eleazar", (which means "helped by God" {presumably by resurrection after death}) which points to the closing statement in verse 31. Furthermore, in verse 31, the Lord's Words were proved to be true, by the results of the resurrection of a Lazarus later on and of Christ Himself.

We have tears and sorrows now, these tears will be wiped away by God, the sorrow and pain of this world will be gone.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians not once but twice on the Resurrection (in both letters, and possibly in the other two lost letters) because the Church of Corinth in Greece was believing Greek beliefs of the after life like the one in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, and Paul rebuked them for this in both letters.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death (not eternal torment) through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned" Romans 5:12

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death (not eternal torment) reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. " Romans 5:17

"So that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20

"Death has been swallowed up in victory."
"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O grave, is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory (over death) through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 15:54-57

God Bless

 

[daverain]

i think men will turn to Him if they can see Him in us rather than out of an unscriptural torture thingo

Yes.




While -I- do believe that

it's a real place of suffering,


that's to be avoided...


I -DO- find that...

(most) -NON CHRISTIANS- (that I talk to)

feel that

-ANY-

message about -HELL-,

would mean that...


God -WANTS- them to go there.


I find I'm -CONSTANTLY-

telling people that

God gave His Son as a sacrifice...


to -SAVE US- all from there...


(and that the -enemy- is the one who desires people to go to -ANY- place of suffering, -NOT- God. )


( In My Opinion )





Peace in Christ.



.

 

[Lpe04]

Hey Daverain,
It's great to see a fellow brother in Christ witnessing to others about Christ. I respect your opinion but can't agree with your belief in eternal torment because a) it contradicts God's Word b) it contradicts God's nature and c) it contradicts the historical beliefs of Christianity/Judiaism. I have posted before on all of this, but you can get more info at http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=455 and http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/HL/index.htm

I used to believe this doctrine, because that's what society had taught me and most churches had taught me. But there is an old saying "If most people believe it, it's probably not the Truth". This is evident to see in the Catholic church for example and this is probably where this doctrine started from. When I actually started studying God's Word and understanding God, I realized how ridiculous this belief really is.

One time I was having trouble with this doctrine (when I used to believe it) and I asked God if this where true. He said "Now what do you think? You know me and who I am. Many people have changed the free gift offered by my Son into a choice that must be made to avoid eternal torment. Do you see how ridiculous this is?" Now I understand.

God Bless

 

[Lpe04]

i think men will turn to Him if they can see Him in us rather than out of an unscriptural torture thingo


ert

Exactly. It says it is the goodness or kindness of God that brings a man to repentance.

Romans 2:4 "Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent"

Ephesians 4:29 "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

We are to speak on the grace and love of God. This is what people respond to.

God Bless

 

[Jerrysch]

Biblical scholars do not hold this story to be the representative of the after life,

Who would these biblical scholars be?

 

[Jerrysch]

First, you have to understand that Jesus spoke in parables (stories). He told His disciples that He spoke in parables (stories) to those who were unleared and wouldn't listen (they were so hard hearted and set in their beliefs) unless He spoke to them in these stories (parables) and their beliefs. He said to His disciples He would reveal the truth. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a story based off the Greek belief at the time in which the sould lived for ever and was tormented in the underworld by the Greek god Hades (sound like a common belief nowadays?)

This was not a parable, it was Jesus speaking of a literal event. Parables never refer to people by name, for this reason it must be understood as not being a parable.