Hell Over The Holidays

[Webers_Home]

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I often receive criticism from professing Christians for discussing a depressing topic like eternal suffering at Christmas time. But those "Christians" seem to forget that Hell is an essential component of the New Testament's gospel, and the very reason why its Jesus came into the world to die.

The Bible's hell is not a place you want to be. If people in there could step on somebody right now to get out; I guarantee you they wouldn't hesitate to climb up out of there on the bodies of their own children. People up here on the surface just don't appreciate how bad it is down there or they would flock to Jesus for safety— bellowing, yelping, shouldering, and stepping all over each other —like an insane crowd of holiday shoppers stampeding through the doors of Macy's when they open for business on Black Friday; they would trample everybody in their way just for a chance to grab his garment and beg for mercy.

According to Christ's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife, the majority of the human race hasn't been making it to safety.

†. Mtt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

†. Mtt 22:14 . . For many are invited, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines many as: consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number

few is defined as: consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: not many; i.e. some, but indeterminately small in number

According to Webster's then; few means a small percentage, and many means a large percentage; viz: most. Here's how that looks fleshed out.

As of 12/23/09 at 02:39 pm New York time, there were approximately 308,214,322 people alive in the USA with a death rate of approximately one every 12 seconds; which amounts to 7,200 American deaths during just one 24-hour day.

Allowing for say, 1/3rd of those daily American deaths to be underage children, that would leave 4,800 adult-age Americans crossing over to the other side every day. Giving them the benefit of the doubt by setting the minimum "many" percentage at 51%, would indicate that 2,448 Americans transfer to perdition each day: roughly 102 per hour.

That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities few and many in the passages I referenced. Just think; by the time Brian Williams completes his half-hour evening report, a bare bones minimum of 51 Americans have crossed over to the Bible's hell. Who do you know of that died recently? Where did they go? Were they one of the many, or one of the few?

Using the ratio of 102 condemned souls per hour per 308,214,322 population: computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated population of 6,791,922,475 rounds out to something like 2,248 international arrivals in Hell every sixty minutes on the clock. Those numbers would fill the new 51,800 seat Yankee Stadium in just under twenty-four hours with three minutes to spare.

The Bible's hell is like a Sarlacc Pit, where souls never stop cascading into its ghastly maw in an endless stream like chocolate kisses from a Hershey's conveyor belt.

Christmas and New Year's are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher; and believe me folks, the Bible's God makes no exceptions for those holidays; no, none at all.

†. Luke 16:24 . .The rich man shouted: Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.

Too late moron.

†. Pro 1:24-33 . . I called you so often, but you didn't come. I reached out to you, but you paid no attention. You ignored my advice and rejected the correction I offered. So I will laugh when you are in trouble! I will mock you when disaster overtakes you— when calamity overcomes you like a hurricane, when you are engulfed by trouble, and when anguish and distress overwhelm you.

. . I will not answer when they cry for help. Even though they anxiously search for me, they will not find me. For they hated knowledge and chose not to reverence the Lord. They rejected my advice and paid no attention when I corrected them. That is why they must eat the bitter fruit of living their own way. They must experience the full terror of the path they have chosen. For they are stupid who turn away from me to death. They are dunces, and their own complacency will destroy them. But all who listen to me will live in peace and safety, unafraid of harm.

†. Isa 66:23-24 . . All humanity will come to worship me from week to week and from month to month. And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me. For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out. All who pass by will view them with utter horror. (cf. Mrk 9:43-48)

The reference to "all humanity" is of course limited to the living. By no stretch of the imagination can those roasting bodies infested with worms be construed as alive.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[Webers_Home]

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One of the more ghastly concepts I've ever seen of Hell wasn't a painting illustrating Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy, but rather, a description of conditions in the Nazi death camps of the second world war.

Holocaust prisoners may have marched to their deaths quietly but they certainly did not go to their deaths quietly. According to eye-witness accounts, they were herded into garage-like buildings and the doors shut tightly behind them. Then a canister containing a toxic fuming substance was lowered into the room through a small hole in the roof just big enough for the canister to fit.

After the initial panic, and all the screams and shrieks subsided, and no movement could be detected from inside, the doors were opened and the sight that greeted Nazi guards was as typical as it was ghastly. What the prisoners did was try to climb on top of each other in a frantic attempt to reach the little hole in the roof for some fresh air. The pile of bodies resembled a conical shape like the paper cones stacked in dispensers alongside water coolers: except the tip of the pile was up instead of down, so that the last people standing ended their lives atop the fresh corpses of their fellow prisoners.

In some instances, prisoners attempted to burrow their way out by breaking lumber at the base of walls with their bare hands; but weren't fast enough. I've seen photographs of them with their lifeless arms protruding outside from trying to claw their way to safety.

Note: I made a special effort to avoid identifying the ethnic identities of any of the prisoners in my illustration. If your mind read "Jewish prisoners" into the text, it did so without even thinking about it. It is a matter of historical record that Holocaust prisoners were an amalgam of ethnic Poles, Jews, the Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, the disabled, the disfigured, homosexual men, and political and religious opponents. Limiting the Holocaust to Jewish victims is stereotyping. Yes, Jews were there, but they don't own it. Jews amounted to barely half of the death camp tally.

Additional Note: Lest someone jump to the conclusion that I'm saying Jews deserved the death camps; let me clarify that I used the Holocaust as merely an illustration of the desperate conditions one might expect to encounter in the Bible's hell when they arrive.

There's a program on cable television called Dangerous Jobs. On one occasion the host went to a steel foundry. He donned all the personal protective equipment that foundry workers wear and was tasked with removing a refractory core from one of the kettles that had just been used to pour a mold. The kettle was enormous and he could only reach the core with a long tubular tool called an oxygen lance. After only just a couple of minutes working on that core, his face shield began to melt from the radiant heat coming off that kettle, and the flesh on his face began to actually cook like a turkey in the oven. Afterwards, the foundry supervisor scolded the host for overstaying the safe time-limit for de-coring a kettle.

If crucifying Christ was the only way to escape circumstances like any of those above, then I say more power to Rome for stringing him up.

†. Isa 52:14-15 . .There were many who were appalled at him— his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness —thus will he sprinkle many nations,

Who mutilated Christ? The Romans? Well, Pilate's guards did slap him around a bit and punch him in the face, but it was Jesus' own Father that really did him in. Man had done all he could do to Christ, but when those three hours of darkness settled in, it was God's turn to take a crack at him.

†. Isa 53:10 . .It was Yhh's will to crush him and cause him to suffer

Small wonder then that Christ's friends didn't expect him back from the dead. The man they buried was so tore up he didn't even look human. If God would do that to His own son, a son whom He dearly cherishes, then what do you suppose Jesus' father has in store for those who mock the cross?

†. Heb 10:28-29 . . Anyone who refused to obey the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Think how much more terrible the punishment will be for those who have trampled on God's son and have treated the blood of the covenant as if it were common and secular. Such people have insulted and enraged the Holy Spirit who brings God's mercy to His people.

The thing that makes snubbing the cross so much more serious than Moses' Law is that the cross doesn't regard laws, rules, rites, holy days and rituals, nor does it regard sacred men like Moses, but it regards God's own next of kin, His one and only beloved son; His "flesh and blood" so to speak.

In the movie Amadeus, Mozart's wife Constanze secretly brings a sample of the maestro's music to court composer Antonio Salieri in order to review it in a competition to win the position of music tutor for Emperor Joseph II's niece. After reviewing Mozart's music, and recognizing the skills and abilities of a genius far beyond his own, Salieri drops the sheets of carefully penned originals to the floor, and actually treads on them on his way out of the room.

Salieri, in a mood of indignation, resentment, rivalry, and envy; walked upon a thing of genius and beauty like as if it were merely rubbish left behind by a careless janitor. Unforgivable.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[St.PaultheApostle]

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The Bible's hell is like a Sarlacc Pit, where souls never stop cascading into its ghastly maw in an endless stream like chocolate kisses from a Hershey's conveyor belt.
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(I'm resisting the urge to laugh, I love that example, and your commentary. :-D)

Many dispute the existence of Hell. But what would be scary is if Hell is a "personal Hell", where people are tortured based on their sins and/or personal fears. Many people leave mainstream churches because they believe that there is no Hell, because "God is kind and wouldn't allow it."
People who come by this thread probably think you are being too graphic with the details. But what Hell is, realllllly is much much much much much much much much worse. Over time, it has become a "taboo" to speak of Hell around other people, just as it is becoming a "taboo" to speak of Christ, Our Lord and SAVIOR, in the workplace and in the world.

But what's comforting about the concept of Hell, is that it also serves as a prison for the lovely little creatures [demons], that run it. It is sad that people go there, but its there, so repent, because, it has been talked about by Prophets, Spiritual Fathers, and even Jesus, Our Lord and SAVIOR.

I honestly don't get why some people who don't believe in Hell also call Christ "SAVIOR". I guess that means that Christ came down to chill out on vacation with some friends, instead of saving our Eternal Souls, right? *Sarcasm* Other people believe in Hell, but you can IMMEDIATELY obtain Salvation by just believing that Christ was the Son of God, and nothing else you do can override that. So if I were to go and blow up the Vatican, and some various other Christian-communities, and still believe in Christ, I would be "Saved"? Sounds great! *Sarcasm*

Hell is Hell. There is no way to escape it, except for 3 things:
Belief in God.
Faith in God.
And Good Works (and Behavior) in the Name of God.

I look forward to your response, and your continuing participation at Christian Forums! :-D

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: People who come by this thread probably think you are being too graphic with the details.

As bad as the reservoir of liquefied flame is at Rev 20:11-15, I should think that what happens to the damned prior to their incineration is pretty bad too. They will be reunitied with their bodies to stand trial and it's not to determine who goes to the lake and who doesn't. No, it's to determine the quantity of punishment the damned merit prior to their transfer from hades to the reservoir. This is frightening because the judgment of God is very thorough: eye for eye, tooth for tooth, stripe for stripe, burning for burning, etc. The scales of justice have to balance. Let me give you an idea of just how serious this really is.

Supposing the penalty for a lie is 5 lashes and the accused has 200 counts of lying against them. That means that each count will receive 5 lashes, adding up to 1,000 lashes for those 200 lies. But that's only the beginning.

Suppose the penalty for using God's name in profanity is 30 lashes, and that same offender's lifetime accumulation is 500 counts of blasphemy; which isn't an unreasonable number of counts for someone who lived to be sixty or seventy. They would be given 30 lashes for each of those 500 counts; adding up to 15,000 lashes on top of the 1,000 they already received for 200 lies.

According to the Bible's Christ, human beings will have to answer for not only their serious words, but also for their careless words (Mtt 12:36). Supposing the penalty for defamation of character is 15 lashes and that same offender, over the years— via gossip, demeaning comments, arbitrary accusations, rumor mongering, kangaroo-court convictions, and thoughtless remarks —impugned innocent reputations a total of 85 times. They would receive 15 lashes for each count, adding up to a total of 1,275 lashes.

So then, for just those three crimes alone— lies, blasphemy, and idle words —that individual offender would be given a grand total of 17,275 lashes.

It gets worse. Offenders who knew at the time that what they were doing was wrong, will be punished much more severely than those who did so uninformed.

†. Luke 12:47-48 . . And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

In reality then, long life can be a curse rather than a blessing, and for some people, it would have been far better if they had died as a child than to face God as a senior citizen. By the time the damned are carried out of the Great White Throne courtroom to be discarded still breathing into the reservoir of flaming liquid spoken of in Rev 20:11-15, they will look as though they were dragged through a field of concertina wire and then dropped into a cotton gin.

It's very likely then that many of the damned will not only have their flesh flayed open; but suffer a number of broken bones, paralysis, blindness, deafness, and loss of their capacity to speak intelligibly; because for some of mankind's atrocities, it'll take way more than a whipping to set things right.

C.L.I.F.F.
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[St.PaultheApostle]

This all reminds me of that one Greek-god who was said to be bound and every day birds ate his insides; he was immortal so he regenerated over and over and over. The worst punishment I can imagine is being nailed to something at your elbows, and left to hang, the pressure would devastate their nervous system, meaning, you would be at the maximum pain you can possibly experience without your body shutting down. But the millions of ways of punishment beyond flogging is astronomical, and its illustrated by Renaisance writers
One of the most horrifying recorded punishments is shown through the example of the Fallen Angel Azazel, who is chained down upon jagged rocks at Duduael (Beth Ḥadudo) by the Great Angel Raphael, with no one else there till Judgement, when he will be cast down into the flames of Hell. He is being punished for showing mankind how to make weapons and do witchcraft. This is shown in the Book of Enoch.

Have you read Dante's Inferno? They made a video game about it, hopefully it will scare some sense into some little kids.

By the way, what denomination are you?

 

[Webers_Home]

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RE: Have you read Dante's Inferno?

No.

RE: By the way, what denomination are you?

I'm not affiliated with a denomination; however, that was not always the case.

My mother imposed her own belief system on my brother and sister and I as kids. (My father was Protestant but kept his mouth shut in order to avoid alienating mother. Practically every man since Adam would rather alienate God than their wives. I mean; husbands don't have to live with God.) Subsequently, we were baptized as infants into the Roman Catholic Church; forced to attend catechism, and went on to complete First Holy Communion and Confirmation. Because of my parents financial situation, and problems associated with transportation, I did only one year in parochial high school. I have an older half-brother (whom I have neither seen nor heard from since 1961) who entered the priesthood.

I was loyal to Rome and its teachings up until I was a little over 24 years old; and then in 1968 the Holy Bible opened my eyes to some reality checks; and one of those checks is that Rome does not always agree with the Holy Bible; nor does it always agree with the Bible's Christ.

I was faced with a grave decision: do I stifle my conscience— and along with it my own better judgment —and marginalize the Bible and its Christ in order to continue following Rome without question; or do I yield to my conscience and my own better judgment and marginalize Rome and its Christ in favor of following the Bible and its Christ? I chose to marginalize Rome. That will have been 42 years ago next month, and in all that time I have not had one single pang of conscience nor feelings of regret for my decision. In point of fact, the more I studied the Bible, and the more I studied Christ's teachings and the teachings of the epistles; the more disillusioned I became with Rome.

After Catholicism, I attended Conservative Baptist churches for a number of years before finally getting fed up with incompetent Sunday school teachers and career-minded church managers and decided to break away from organized religion and interact on the internet. That decision was made almost thirteen years ago and it's worked out to be a smart move.

It's difficult at times having to cope with despotic forum moderators— their arbitrary enforcement of the rules of conduct, their construing rules to mean whatever suits their purpose, their legislating rules on the fly, their enforcement of rules that don't exist, their decidedly un-American suppression of free speech, and their rather annoying propensity to permit feelings and impressions to influence their decisions rather than logic and objectivity— but other than that, the internet is an excellent venue for someone with a desire to go into all the world and preach the gospel everywhere to everyone (Mrk 16:15) and teach them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. (Mtt 28:19-20)

BTW: My half-brother's mother was at one time well-connected in San Diego. I don't know how she did it but she managed to get his birth records edited after he heard "the call". Her second husband had the Irish name of Dolan, which at the time was a far better name for an ambitious priestling than the German name of Weber and they figured my brother would go much farther in the priesthood by the name of Father Dolan rather than Father Weber. (chuckle) Imagine representing Christ with a falsified birth certificate!

C.L.I.F.F.
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[St.PaultheApostle]

If you are considering joining a Church, check Orthodox Christianity out!

-We are known as the "First Church", because we haven't changed for roughly 1300 years (and that change was introducing native languages into our services).

-We follow the exact teachings of the Bible (NO NEGOTIATIONS).

-We don't change any rules, for example, we have not become a monarchy, and that is why we left the Catholics in the First Great Schism, along with some other corrupted practices of that time. (I can assure you, that no one in our Church is deemed to have "infallibility")

-We haven't fallen into corruption (COUGH indulgences, compromising for public approval, or introducing electric guitars and dancers COUGH).

-Our history is clean, (except for some minor issues...).

-We are anti-materialistic.

-We still have THOUSANDS of modern miracles, including some that happen predictably on exact dates of the year annually, check out the "Holy Flame" (atheists STILL can't disprove it after CENTURIES OF RESEARCH, HAHAHA )

-We believe everything that you are saying about Hell.

-WE CERTAINLY DON'T COMPROMISE OUR BELIEFS FOR GENERAL PUBLIC APPROVAL. (God is God. The Bible is the Truth, and anything that goes against its teachings is False.)

-CHURCH IS ABOUT WORSHIPING GOD, NOT ENTERTAINMENT!

-We are the second largest Church in the world, with many ethnic "factions" but still are part of the whole (I did the math and apparently 3.54% of the world is some form of Orthodox! We just lack members in America.).

-Our true head of our Church is God. But we have several "sub-leaders", dubbed "Patriarchs" and "Metropolitans"(7 main Patriarchs), who instead of living in a palace (COUGH the Pope COUGH (note: not meant to be offensive, just demonstrating humility)), live in monestaries, and travel around A LOT. (Well, Patriarchs really are just Bishops, but they act as representatives for the ethnic factions to reach consensus about matters.)

-Our Churches are PARALLEL to JEWISH TEMPLES.

-We worship the same way Christ's followers did, and we have a strict regiment for our clergy.


If you are looking for a Church, consider us. All Christians are God's People, but we are different because we stick to the Bible. I'm not saying that we are elevated above other denominations, but that we HAVE stuck to God's and the Apostles' teachings.

We could honestly use more blunt and enthusiastic people like you :-D.

(Note: I apologize if anybody reads this and feels insulted by the stuff I have said.)

 

[consigliere31]

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I often receive criticism from professing Christians for discussing a depressing topic like eternal suffering at Christmas time. But those "Christians" seem to forget that Hell is an essential component of the New Testament's gospel, and the very reason why its Jesus came into the world to die.

The Bible's hell is like a Sarlacc Pit, where souls never stop cascading into its ghastly maw in an endless stream like chocolate kisses from a Hershey's conveyor belt.

/

Thats quite an imagination you have there. You should actually do a bible search on 'unquechable fire' and 'furnace of fire', it might help you understand the correct interpretation of what these figurative expressions represent.

I would also recommend studying the early transcripts of the bible, because 'hell' doesn't exist in them anywhere.

Israel was taken out of the iron furnace(Egypt) and they were placed back into the 'iron furnace' in approximatelt 536 BC.

The unquechable fires they went through in the OT, were figurative expressions used to describe a judgment from God.

Jesus used these same expressions in the NT, simply because that is the language that is consistant throughout the scriptures and that is what they understood.

The eternal punishment and hell that is held as a popular orthodox dogma today is conjecture made up from the warped imaginations of men with distorted views of God.

I would be happy to show you how this myth of hell is non biblical, but I don't think it will be an easy task to unravel the distorted premise that you have as a foundation.

Lazarus and the rich man is a parable depicting the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles, taking it literal is an error. And if you do take it literal, then you would also have to consider that all rich men go to this so-called place called hell, while all poor men go to heaven..

you might want to think about this, and whether you are open to even recieve the truth about this as well, as it would mean a crumbling down of everything that you have so far understood about God.

 

[Der Alte]

Thats quite an imagination you have there. You should actually do a bible search on 'unquechable fire' and 'furnace of fire', it might help you understand the correct interpretation of what these figurative expressions represent.

I would also recommend studying the early transcripts of the bible, because 'hell' doesn't exist in them anywhere. [Unsupported assertion!]

Israel was taken out of the iron furnace(Egypt) and they were placed back into the 'iron furnace' in approximatelt 536 BC.[Not stated or implied in any Jewish writing anywhere!]

The unquechable fires they went through in the OT, were figurative expressions used to describe a judgment from God. [Ditto!]

Jesus used these same expressions in the NT, simply because that is the language that is consistant throughout the scriptures and that is what they understood.

The eternal punishment and hell that is held as a popular orthodox dogma today is conjecture made up from the warped imaginations of men with distorted views of God. [Unsupported opinion, assumptions/presuppositions!]

I would be happy to show you how this myth of hell is non biblical, but I don't think it will be an easy task to unravel the distorted premise that you have as a foundation.

Lazarus and the rich man is a parable depicting the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles, taking it literal is an error. And if you do take it literal, then you would also have to consider that all rich men go to this so-called place called hell, while all poor men go to heaven..

you might want to think about this, and whether you are open to even recieve the truth about this as well, as it would mean a crumbling down of everything that you have so far understood about God.

Note this documents the beliefs of the ancient Jews before the time of Christ. The supporting scripture is highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a).A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, [greek]Αληθεις Ιστοριαι[/greek], i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince:
"I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.)The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA​

 

[St.PaultheApostle]

Thats quite an imagination you have there. You should actually do a bible search on 'unquechable fire' and 'furnace of fire', it might help you understand the correct interpretation of what these figurative expressions represent.

I would also recommend studying the early transcripts of the bible, because 'hell' doesn't exist in them anywhere.

Israel was taken out of the iron furnace(Egypt) and they were placed back into the 'iron furnace' in approximatelt 536 BC.

The unquechable fires they went through in the OT, were figurative expressions used to describe a judgment from God.

Jesus used these same expressions in the NT, simply because that is the language that is consistant throughout the scriptures and that is what they understood.

The eternal punishment and hell that is held as a popular orthodox dogma today is conjecture made up from the warped imaginations of men with distorted views of God.

I would be happy to show you how this myth of hell is non biblical, but I don't think it will be an easy task to unravel the distorted premise that you have as a foundation.

Lazarus and the rich man is a parable depicting the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles, taking it literal is an error. And if you do take it literal, then you would also have to consider that all rich men go to this so-called place called hell, while all poor men go to heaven..

you might want to think about this, and whether you are open to even recieve the truth about this as well, as it would mean a crumbling down of everything that you have so far understood about God.

Alright, so, if Hell "aint so bad" why do the demon's screech and claw as they try to escape from going back there? Tell me, what is the purpose of Hell? Is it a ski-resort for the Unfaithful? What exactly did Jesus, OUR SAVIOR, SAVE us from then? Is it just the "exaggerations" of the Spiritual Fathers before us, including Christ, Elijah, and all of the Prophets? What do you base your theory on? Speculation? Hopes that only Faith will Deliver you from Evil? Whatever Hell you may believe in, it exists and it is "hellish". Why else would the SON OF GOD, part of the Holy and Divine Trinity, come down to Earth to suffer for our souls and die for us through torture?

Heaven is Heaven. Hell is Hell. God is God.

But if you would rather not trust our words then trust God's:

Isaiah 45: 7 - I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell's fire.

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mark 9:44 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:19-26 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power?

Revelation 20:9-15 - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


It's sad, I know, but its the Truth. And the Truth is that NOBODY gets to decide what Hell is like, only the Immortal One. Just as nobody gets into Heaven or decides what its like, only the Immortal One decides. And saying that you know exactly how God thinks, or what He does, or by you claiming to know what TRUE JUSTICE is beyond your mortality is heresy, for only God knows for sure, and He told us in the Bible.

I apologize if you think its unfair, but since when did mortals get to decide what's fair and what isn't? God decides what Justice and Fairness are.

 

[Jpark]

There is a hell.

Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Many professing Christians say there is no hell because Sheol refers to death, Hades refers to death and the mythological Greek Hades, Tartarus refers to the mythological Greek Tartarus, and Gehenna refers to the valley of the son of Hinnom.

However, when Jesus and His apostles referred to Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, He was, and they were, referring symbolically to the Abyss, where demons dwell (Revelation 9:1-3), prepared for the angels who sinned (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6).

We must not deny Matthew 25:41. If we do, then do we deny the existence of angels and demons and the devil?

There is a hell. Not many hells, but one hell. And this one hell is the Abyss.

 

[Jpark]

Revelation 9:2-3 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth.

Why is hell depicted as a place of fire in one chapter and a place of darkness in another? Well, Revelation 9 has the answer. Hell is a place of darkness because of the smoke.

We can see from Revelation 9 that the Abyss is a place of fire, a place of darkness, and a place of torment. It meets the requirements of hell.

The demons anticipate judgment and Jesus knows this:

Matthew 8:29 Have You come here to torment us before the time?

Matthew 25:41 Jesus said, "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Note the words before the time.

The demons fear God (James 2:19), who is able to destroy demons and Jesus affirms it:

Mark 1:24 Did You come to destroy us?

Luke 4:34 Did You come to destroy us?

Matthew 10:28 Jesus said, "But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Note the word destroy.

The demons bear witness that the Abyss is a place of torment as does Jesus:

Mark 5:7 I implore You by God that You do not torment me.

Mark 5:10 And he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country.

Luke 8:28 I beg You, do not torment me!

Luke 8:31 And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss.

Luke 16:22-24 Jesus said, "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "

Note the demons beg Jesus that He would not command them to go out into the Abyss.

Note the rich man died and was immediately in torments in hell. There is no lapse between death and heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8) and there is no lapse between death and hell.

Clearly, the Abyss is hell.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
When you are able to prove conclusively, and without ambiguity, that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, then maybe I'll take your protests seriously.

But let's discuss the nature of parables for a bit. Are they symbolic fiction, or are they true-life incidents utilized by Jesus to illustrate spiritual truths?

I take the position that parables are anecdotes, which Webster's defines as: short narratives of interesting, amusing, or biographical incidents. In other words, anecdotes are real-life scenes rather than fictional tales like Aesop's fables.

So then, where did Jesus get his archive of anecdotes? Why; from his Master, who else?

†. John 3:34 . . He is sent by God. He speaks God's words, for God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. John 12:49 . . I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me gave me a mandate what to say and how to say it.

Returning to Luke 16:19-32— three real-life people are named in the narrative: Lazarus, Abraham, and Moses. I just don't think that a man who labels himself "I am the truth" would tell lies about real-life people; most especially men like Abraham and Moses.

And if Luke 16:19-32 were to be untrue, then in order to be consistent in my thinking; I would have to conclude that everything else the Father commanded His son to say about Abraham and Moses in the New Testament is untrue too. Subsequently, I would have good reason to suspect that the Bible's God is a person of low moral integrity who can't be trusted to always tell the truth about people; in other words, the Bible's God would be a bearer of false witness. Subsequently, I would lose faith in God, and without faith it is impossible to please Him. (Heb 11:6)

†. John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves is already condemned

†. John 3:36 . . All who believe in God's son have eternal life. Those who disbelieve the Son will never see life, but the wrath of God abides upon them.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[consigliere31]

.
When you are able to prove conclusively, and without ambiguity, that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, then maybe I'll take your protests seriously.

But let's discuss the nature of parables for a bit. Are they symbolic fiction, or are they true-life incidents utilized by Jesus to illustrate spiritual truths?

C.L.I.F.F.
/

Ok lets examine the nature of the parables, and in doing so, hermeneutic's must be applied.


Hermeneutic: This is the word for the science of literary interpretation. The normal process of determining what a piece of literature means, no matter if it is the local newspaper, Shakespeare, the Odyssey, or the Bible. Proper interpretation demands that we ask the Who? What? When? Where? Why? questions of what we are seeking to interpret. Failure to use good hermeneutic invariably leads to wrong interpretation.

Lets look at the purposes for Jesus using parables

The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

He)Jesus) replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

and Jesus continues with quotes from Isaiah

This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.

Now to understand 'Who' Jesus is speaking these parables specifically towards, the answer is those first century Jews also confirmed by Isaiah.

So we should understand the who what when where and why, that Jesus used parables.

He spoke the parables to this specific first century generation of Jews, who were blinded by God Himself so that they could not understand the meanings and how they served the purposes of revealing the secrets in regards to the kingdom of heaven, only to the disciples and those who were given the ability to understand.

So I would ask you, for what reason to you think that these parables needed to be spoken plainly? And why would they be taken at face value and in a literal way when the intent and meanings were hidden away from the natural mind's capacity to understand, and the greater truth's in the parables, were opened only to those who were called and chosen to understand?

And again, if you want to take the teaching of the rich man and lazarus at face value, then you would also have to concede that the poor man made it into heaven because he had the misfortune of being without in the physical life, and the rich man went to hell because he had the fortune of being rich in the physical life. And their destinies were determined because of these two fates, with absolutely nothing to do with faith in Christ in any way. No where does it say that the poor lazarus possesed faith or was born again in the story, that would entitle him to spend an eternity in heaven.

But if you want to disect this as a parable, it could be clearly seen that the rich man is a reference to the first century Jews, while lazarus represents the Gentiles..and the greater spiritual truth is in the parable's intent of showing that the kingdom of God is taken away from these Jews and given to the Gentiles.

to quote from an article written by Bryan Hui

"""
[SIZE=+1]The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Christ; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions! Yet because of the Eternal's great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]LUKE 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'" (NKJV) [/SIZE]
​

[SIZE=+1]Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape "this place of torment" (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews! """[/SIZE]

 

[St.PaultheApostle]

Ok lets examine the nature of the parables, and in doing so, hermeneutic's must be applied.

Not to be rude or anything, but you still haven't answered my questions.

By your philosophies:
​

Why do demons scream, beg, weep, claw, spit, vomit, desperately try to flee, and do many other revolting things while trying to escape from going back to Eternal Hell if it isn't that bad of a place?

Why is Christ known as the Savior, if there was nothing to save us from?

Why did God incarnate Himself as the Son of Man to suffer and die for us?

If there isn't "Hell", what do you believe is there in its place, or does everyone, including the BILLIONS of people who believe and Christ and Jesus, yet do horrible things? Do they get "deleted", or...?
​

You say that it isn't the way God and us described it, the only other rational explanation for you to say is "we don't know what it's like", which that would be understandable, in a way. Even IF the parable was as you say, you still have to dispute THOUSANDS of other passages, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF SPIRITUAL FATHERS, both past and present. Are you claiming to be smarter than MILLIONS OF Spiritual Fathers, Saints, Apostles, Disciples, and Theologians, who have sold everything that they owned in order to pursue Christ? Catholic Saint Thomas Aquinas lived with actual swine for a month just to get the Pope to listen to him, I'm willing to do no less for you.

We could debate this a different way if you want, meaning: I will bring forth every Biblical Scripture and Passage in the Bible that supports our theory and you bring out as many as you want that supports yours. This negotiation seems to be quite efficient, peaceful, and scholarly, so how about it?

 

[consigliere31]

Not to be rude or anything, but you still haven't answered my questions.

​

​

We could debate this a different way if you want, meaning: I will bring forth every Biblical Scripture and Passage in the Bible that supports our theory and you bring out as many as you want that supports yours. This negotiation seems to be quite efficient, peaceful, and scholarly, so how about it?

I think a debate of the scriptures is the best way for us both support our beliefs on this matter. But it would be helpful not to just overload me with attempting to explain them all in one post. I am willing to do this in a prayerful study, tackling one or two scriptures at a time that you consider supports the theology of eternal punishment..and please be patient with me as I only have an academic grade 8 education so I have to spend a lot of time on dictionary making sure I understand what others are saying.

In doing this scriptural debate hopefully my philosophies will be clearly seen as being biblically supported as will be yours.

 

[St.PaultheApostle]

I think a debate of the scriptures is the best way for us both support our beliefs on this matter. But it would be helpful not to just overload me with attempting to explain them all in one post. I am willing to do this in a prayerful study, tackling one or two scriptures at a time that you consider supports the theology of eternal punishment..and please be patient with me as I only have an academic grade 8 education so I have to spend a lot of time on dictionary making sure I understand what others are saying.

In doing this scriptural debate hopefully my philosophies will be clearly seen as being biblically supported as will be yours.

I only have 11 years of religious education. (I'm 17). Age doesn't really matter in theology though, as long as you can comprehend logic and you can reason as a human being, you are capable of theological thinking.

I compiled a list of passages so far, there are MANY more, but those passages can be misinterpreted as they only mention "damnation", "goats", and other terms associated, but not limited to, Hell. The most prominent source for this is Revelations, but its symbolism can be interpreted in many ways. The truth is, there is a Hell, and words can't really describe its horrors. It is listed throughout the Bible, and these are but examples of the multitude of its mention, description, and explanation. There are no passages that can disprove Hell's existence. We are mortals, we cannot correctly say what is fair and what isn't fair. And according to God's logic: Hell is fair.

Passages ("Pro-Existence" bystanders can add to it if they want to if they quote me.):

Deuteronomy 32:22 -For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

2 Samuel 22:6 -The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Job 11:8 - It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 26:6 - Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Psalm 9:17- The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Psalm 16:10- For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalm 18:5- The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Psalm 55:15- Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Psalm 86:13- For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psalm 116:3- The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Psalm 139:8- If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Proverbs 5:5- Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Proverbs 7:27- Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Proverbs 9:18- But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Proverbs 15:11- Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Proverbs 15:24- The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Proverbs 23:14- Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Proverbs 27:20- Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Isaiah 5:14- Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isaiah 14:9- Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isaiah 14:15- Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isaiah 28:15- Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:18- And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isaiah 57:9- And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Ezekiel 31:16- I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Ezekiel 31:17- They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

Ezekiel 32:21- The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Ezekiel 32:27- And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Amos 9:2- Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down.

Jonah 2:2- And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Habakkuk 2:5- Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

Matthew 5:22- But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:29- And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30- And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 10:28- And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 11:23- And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Matthew 16:18- And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:9- And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 23:15- Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:33- Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mark 9:43- And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45- And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47- And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Luke 10:15- And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 12:5- But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 16:23- And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Acts 2:27- Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:31- He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

James 3:6- And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

2 Peter 2:4- For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Revelation 1:18- I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 6:8- And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14- And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(Incomplete list)

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Sorry, but I refuse to believe the Bible's God would instruct His son to lie and bear false witness about three real-life people; however, I am perfectly willing to believe that men would.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

 

[consigliere31]

I only have 11 years of religious education. (I'm 17). Age doesn't really matter in theology though, as long as you can comprehend logic and you can reason as a human being, you are capable of theological thinking.

Revelation 20:14- And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(Incomplete list)

I asked you to give support sharing one verse at a time, two at the most, so why is it you have flooded the post with so many verses. Is it fair that I share the 150 verses that support a ultimate reconciliation of all things created, debunking the theology developed as eternal punishment and expect for you to debate them all at once?

I see you are using a translation that substitutes the words Gehenna Hades, and Sheol as intending to mean hell. If you research blue letter bible you will find the correct word that should be there.

'Hell' is not mentioned anywhere in the earliest bible so it becomes confusing by grouping all the words together to mean the same thing, and that is the error that must be dealt with first and formost. That is why I ask you not to share them all at once.

I left only one scripture you posted to begin this debate.

Death and 'hell' are destroyed by being thrown into the lake of fire, so how can this so called hell be justified as an eternal punishment that never ends when it is destroyed in the lake of fire judgment that is figuratively expressed as the second death?

 

[consigliere31]

.
Sorry, but I refuse to believe the Bible's God would instruct His son to lie and bear false witness about three real-life people; however, I am perfectly willing to believe that men would.

C.L.I.F.F.
/

so then are you also agreeing with the story, in the literal sense, that all poor people go to heaven and all rich people go to this eternal hellfire?