Hell or the lake of fire?

victorinus · Oct 31, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Did you mean to say, is that why you don't find the word "test" in some versions?

Either way, I don't follow.

you often hear someone say that they are saved because they believe
-and-
point to something paul may have said
-but-
to do this they must ignore many other parts of the bible that clearly requires works to validate your beliefs

victorinus · Oct 31, 2016

Superhero Sam said:
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

don't know
-
you asked me to elaborate

Dave-W · Oct 31, 2016

Superhero Sam said:
Are you implying the angel of death is Satan?

No. But just lending biblical support that Death and Hell/Hades/Sheol are supernatural PERSONS.

Here is another verse that speak of them as persons:

Revelation 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Sammy-San · Oct 31, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
No. But just lending biblical support that Death and Hell/Hades/Sheol are supernatural PERSONS.

Here is another verse that speak of them as persons:

Revelation 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

What did you think of those articles that I gave you?

Lazarus Short · Oct 31, 2016

victorinus said:
you often hear someone say that they are saved because they believe
-and-
point to something paul may have said
-but-
to do this they must ignore many other parts of the bible that clearly requires works to validate your beliefs

OK, now we're on the same page. To answer your question, yes, I suppose theology too often dictates some words being there, or not being there. As for your comment on ignoring parts of the Bible which do not agree with your personal theology, you are spot on. It's much like translating, isn't it? I subscribe to the notion that to arrive at a correct Bible-based conclusion, you should examine every relevant text, to consider the whole counsel of God. Too many people take what I call a buffet approach, loading up on one item, taking it to the table, and telling everyone, "This is all there is!"

Dave-W · Oct 31, 2016

Superhero Sam said:
What did you think of those articles that I gave you?

They basically said the same thing - there is no "angel of death" in Christianity. But they ignored the scriptures I listed.

Sammy-San · Oct 31, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
They basically said the same thing - there is no "angel of death" in Christianity. But they ignored the scriptures I listed.

Does that verse in Revelation mention a "particular angel who is in charge of death or who is present whenever a person dies", to quote Gotquestions.org?

Dave-W · Oct 31, 2016

Superhero Sam said:
Does that verse in Revelation mention a "particular angel who is in charge of death or who is present whenever a person dies", to quote Gotquestions.org?

No, and there is no specific scripture addressing that issue at all. In fact they might NOT be angels. But if not angels, what then? Not the devil.
Not demons since they do seem to be seeking to inhabit a physical body.
Not humans.

In my mind, angels are the only thing left.

Sammy-San · Oct 31, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
No, and there is no specific scripture addressing that issue at all. In fact they might NOT be angels. But if not angels, what then? Not the devil.
Not demons since they do seem to be seeking to inhabit a physical body.
Not humans.

In my mind, angels are the only thing left.

God, and God alone, is sovereign over the timing of our deaths. No angel or demon can in any sense cause our death before the time God has willed it to occur. According to Romans 6:23 and Revelation 20:11-15, death is separation, separation of our soul-spirit from our body (physical death) and, in the case of unbelievers, everlasting separation from God (eternal death). Death is something that occurs. Death is not an angel, a demon, a person, or any other being. Angels can cause death, and may be involved in what happens to us after death—but there is no such thing as the “angel of death.”

Click to expand...

https://gotquestions.org/angel-of-death.html

Dave-W · Oct 31, 2016

Superhero Sam said:
God, and God alone, is sovereign over the timing of our deaths. No angel or demon can in any sense cause our death before the time God has willed it to occur. According to Romans 6:23 and Revelation 20:11-15, death is separation, separation of our soul-spirit from our body (physical death) and, in the case of unbelievers, everlasting separation from God (eternal death). Death is something that occurs. Death is not an angel, a demon, a person, or any other being. Angels can cause death, and may be involved in what happens to us after death—but there is no such thing as the “angel of death.”

Sam - that still does not tell you why Death and Hell are spoken of as persons.

Sammy-San · Oct 31, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Sam - that still does not tell you why Death and Hell are spoken of as persons.

Mary K Baxter said that hell is in the center the earth.

eartheart · Oct 31, 2016

I always rendered "Angel of death" as "messenger of death", something Islam believes but its not in our bible, rather a pale horse is described as an invisioned message of doom.

AlexDTX · Oct 31, 2016

Superhero Sam said:
Elaborate.

Words have histories, i.e., etymologies. The meanings of the words can change through the generations. This is because languages live by the people who use them. When looking at what was said 2,000 years ago in another language, translators are limited in what they can understood because of their removal from the generation that spoke the words.

However, the Spirit of God was there and is able to give us His intended meaning to the words in the Bible. This is why the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.

Lazarus Short · Oct 31, 2016

Superhero Sam said:
Mary K Baxter said that hell is in the center the earth.

Along with Dante and John Milton, Mary K Baxter is a writer of fiction. Yes, I did read her book.

Sammy-San · Oct 31, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Along with Dante and John Milton, Mary K Baxter is a writer of fiction. Yes, I did read her book.

You don't believe her story at all?

Lazarus Short · Nov 1, 2016

Superhero Sam said:
You don't believe her story at all?

The Author of the Bible, which I sometimes call a Reference Standard of Truth, told us not to add to or take away from the words of that Book.

Baxter adds many words to the narrative, putting words into the mouth of Jesus, words He never said, portraying Him as a prison warden, when He stated that He came to save us, and describing a fantasy Hell, which has no basis in the Bible. Nothing in her book is verifiable. She does do a bit better with her fantasy Hell than Dante, for she does take out the overt pagan elements. Covertly, it is still pagan. "Hell" is a word foreign to the Bible. My Oxford English Dictionary tells me it first appeared in the English language ~825 AD. This word is translated from four Hebrew and Greek words:

Sheol - the realm of the dead

Gehenna - a real place in the real world

Hades - the realm of the dead, but with pagan overtones

Tartarus - used once, hardly counts.

However, we have from the pagan beliefs of ancient northern Europe, Hel or Helheim (house of Hel). Hel was their goddess or ogress of the underworld, and that underworld was also called Hel. Am I really reaching too far if I say that Hell came from Hel? Conversely, Hel is pagan, but Hell is Christian? Is anyone going to tell me with a straight face that pagans became Christians and did NOT bring along some theological baggage? Given the Bible's complete failure to describe such a place, except for an occasional insertion of the word "Hell" mis-translated from one of the four words above, Hell should join a host of other hoary mythical concepts.

AlexDTX · Nov 1, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
Along with Dante and John Milton, Mary K Baxter is a writer of fiction. Yes, I did read her book.

I don't know where Hell will be located, but there is a description of the Lake of Fire in the last chapter of Isaiah.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It seems that the Lake of Fire will be on Earth along the way to Jerusalem where worshipers will be able to see those cast into the Lake of Fire. One might think that the passage meant simply the dead after the Great Tribulation, but the final clause in verse 24, "the worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" is what Jesus said regarding Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire.

Der Alte · Nov 1, 2016

Lazarus Short said:
The Author of the Bible, which I sometimes call a Reference Standard of Truth, told us not to add to or take away from the words of that Book.

Baxter adds many words to the narrative, putting words into the mouth of Jesus, words He never said, portraying Him as a prison warden, when

He stated that He came to save us, and describing a fantasy Hell, which has no basis in the Bible. Nothing in her book is verifiable. She does

do a bit better with her fantasy Hell than Dante, for she does take out the overt pagan elements.

Covertly, it is still pagan. "Hell" is a word foreign to the Bible. My Oxford English Dictionary tells me it first appeared in the English language ~825 AD.

This word is translated from four Hebrew and Greek words:
Sheol - the realm of the dead

Gehenna - a real place in the real world
Hades - the realm of the dead, but with pagan overtones

Tartarus - used once, hardly counts.
However, we have from the pagan beliefs of ancient northern Europe, Hel or Helheim (house of Hel). Hel was their goddess or

ogress of the underworld, and that underworld was also called Hel. Am I really reaching too far if I say that Hell came from Hel?

Conversely, Hel is pagan, but Hell is Christian? Is anyone going to tell me with a straight face that pagans became Christians and did NOT bring along some

theological baggage? Given the Bible's complete failure to describe such a place, except for an occasional insertion of the word "Hell"

mis-translated from one of the four words above, Hell should join a host of other hoary mythical concepts.

Seems like some folks latch on to what they want to believe about "hell" etc. and keep repeating that over and over despite evidence to the contrary.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that

there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/NTeSources/NTArticles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

Lazarus Short · Nov 1, 2016

Der Alter said:
Seems like some folks latch on to what they want to believe about "hell" etc. and keep repeating that over and over despite evidence to the contrary.

Yes, and then Der Alter goes on to do exactly that...from his POV. BTW, I did not read what I did not quote - to use the term he so often uses: RUBBISH. He is really good at quoting others in a creative way, oh, and such a way with color texts!

Lazarus Short · Nov 1, 2016

AlexDTX said:
I don't know where Hell will be located, but there is a description of the Lake of Fire in the last chapter of Isaiah.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It seems that the Lake of Fire will be on Earth along the way to Jerusalem where worshipers will be able to see those cast into the Lake of Fire. One might think that the passage meant simply the dead after the Great Tribulation, but the final clause in verse 24, "the worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" is what Jesus said regarding Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire.

Are you equating the Lake of Fire to Hell, or confusing them?

Hell or the lake of fire?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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