Hell or the lake of fire?

-57 said:

What does this verse mean?

2 Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

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Don't forget the context.... in part the 2 preceding verses ....
7 and to give you, those being oppressed, relief with us at the revelation of the Master Yahshua from Heaven with the host of His cherubs,
8 in flaming fire giving full vengeance to those not knowing Elohim, and to those not obeying the good news of our Master Yahshua Messiah, (Isa. 66:15; Jer. 10:25)

victorinus said:

I believe in the second death
-and-
do not understand how anyone can believe in eternal suffering

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Revelation 21:8 - lake of fire, second death
Matthew 25:46

victorinus said:

do not understand how anyone can believe in eternal suffering

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I think it was a tradition added, like many others,
long after GOD'S WORD was written simply and clearly.
For me it became much simpler and clearer the more I learned Hebrew.(from the simple word studies of Hebrew sources, meanings, and life).

victorinus said:

many get lost in the bible

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The Author is Willing to reveal what HE means to everyone who comes to HIM.
Like many disciples of Jesus though, disciples who walked away from HIM on earth when HE was here,
for many today , as always, it is "too hard to bear".

GenaB said:

Revelation 21:8 - lake of fire, second death
Matthew 25:46

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so what do you think that means?

Der Alter said:

It does not mean as some believe that the unrepentant are destroyed, perish, are annihilated, cease to exist etc.The word translated "destruction" is "apollumi." It is used for spilled and spoiled wine, broken wineskins, spoiled food, tarnished gold, faded flowers, lost sheep, lost coin, a prodigal son etc. Also something that is destroyed does not exist and cannot be "away from the presence of the Lord" or anything else.

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I never claime they were annihilated, cease to exist. That's pretty much JW language.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Biblical definition of "death:" Separation from God. (not necessarily the cessation of consciousness)

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Just curious. If separation from God is death, then all who are born with out God are already dead. Do you consider this to be the first death, or do you think the first death is when our spirits are separated from our bodies? Jesus said to the man who wanted to attend the funeral before following him, Let the dead bury their dead.

Also, the doctrine of omnipresence says that God is everywhere. If he is everywhere how can anyone be separated from him? David said in the psalms, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (psalm 139:8).

This doctrine of separation from God as the definition of death falls short. However, if the Bible speaks of the common understanding of death, that is, the death of our bodies (and I think it does) the second death in the Lake of Fire means the everlasting death of our bodies where the worm dies not (that is the worms that decompose the bodies will continually decompose their bodies) and the fire is not quenched (as in oxidation like rust that corrodes metals) not. This looks like a continuous experience of bodily death, in my opinion.

smithed64 said:

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment
Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29, 30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

And this happened before Christ crucified.

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man
In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question is then if it is a parable, what is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable, what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

Conclusion
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt. 5:29-30).

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The forum needs a thumbs down icon. This is a lame proof texting without any real discussion.

After primitive man evolved a concept of an afterlife, they devised rewards and punishments for good and bad ghosts. So this idea of an eternal torment was carried as a belief into various religions. There is either life or death.

Colter said:

After primitive man evolved a concept of an afterlife, they devised rewards and punishments for good and bad ghosts. So this idea of an eternal torment was carried as a belief into various religions. There is either life or death.

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Your right, to a point.

It's appointed for men to die....that part your right.
Then Christ......this is the part you forget.

Plus The Word of God, would disagree with you.

eartheart said:

Hebrews says that our God is a consuming fire, revelations says that all sinners will have a part in the eternal lake of fire (not that they will be eternal in it as well but have a part). My understanding is that in my case I was an athiest and I felt tortured before being touched by the Holy Spirit, thus my former separation from Lord was in a sense a PART of the eternal lake of fire. I still have not read where the orthodox gets the claim that sinners will burn forever in hell if hell and death is to be cast into the lake of fire - that is by grace sinners will have a part or a taste of hell before repenting and accepting their lord and savior Jesus, though some may not taste death God wills that all his children be saved from hell.
Its a much more understandable then my experience with the Roman Catholic view that made me terrified as a child and kept me away from church. Without that experience though I might not have ever paid attention when the lord came knocking on my door.
What are your views on hell and death being tossed into the eternal lake of fire when Christ returns?
Is hell according to orthodox belief, really the same as what the Bible teaches?

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the biblical word "fire" indicates some force or means force as a whole, i.e. not necessarily fire (always) in the literal sense of the word

the "lake of fire" is a special place where the course of evil is reversed, e.g. if the devil is there, he will not be able to do what he would usually do while being free in the world, but he will only be able, and can even be forced, there, to do things against his will/plans, e.g. he will be likely to be kind of compelled by the force of that place(the "lake of fire") to cause harm/suffering to the souls of people there that served him while still living in this world, of course in case there will be such cast into that place

Blessings

There are multiple issues at play here. "Hell" is an English word. The modern understanding of Hell in the English-speaking world dates from the King James Bible, which used this single word as a translation for a number of Hebrew and Greek words including Sheol, Hades, etc. Earlier comments have explained this. My understanding is that "lake of fire" is a translation of the Greek gehenna which referred to a literal contemporary location, what was essentially the city dump outside Jerusalem where trash was burned. As more fuel was always being added to the pile, the fire there never went out-- it was unquenchable.

To those that argue "this is what the Bible says," the fact is, there is no cut-and-dry interpretation of scripture, nor of Revelation in particular. If there was, we wouldn't still be having the same arguments twenty centuries later. There is evidence that can be interpreted to support the evangelical/fundamentalist view of eternal damnation including ceaseless torment for the vast majority of all human beings who ever have or will live. There is also evidence that can be interpreted to support annihilationism or universalism.

There are many, including myself, who feel that God cannot possibly be less just than humans. The U.S. Constitution prohibits "cruel and unusual" punishment, even for the most heinous of crimes. Obviously, we can't sentence anyone to infinite punishment, but there are cases where we make it even more finite than it has to be. The death penalty ends one's punishment at an earlier date than necessary, at least in this world. The majority of those who receive life sentences receive the eventual opportunity for parole.

Yet there are many who believe that God, in His "perfect justice," would condemn human beings to infinite punishment for finite sins. Of course, they may state that God isn't condemning us, we condemn ourselves in rejecting the singular opportunity of redemption. In Jesus, he offered one way of escaping this fate. But the vast majority of people who have ever lived either never heard of Christ, or were born into another religion. Most people who are brought up one way aren't going to turn from it, especially if it's an inextricably intertwined with their culture and society. So even if they eventually hear the Gospel, most won't convert. Still others are reared in cultures where Christianity is the norm or at the least the majority opinion, but they see the greed, hypocrisy, and even abuses wreaked by the leaders of the church. Add to that the reality of living in an age in which our scientific understanding has progressed to a point that we don't need God to explain anything about the universe, and we see it as a hallmark of intelligence and education to not accept claims without evidence.

Thus, if this fundamentalist belief is true, only a tiny fraction of God's created children will avoid eternal punishment. It's clear that our mortal lives do not offer us equal opportunities to accept the Grace of God offered through Christ. If this lifetime is the only chance to do so, then it's not just, if justice requires equality. One could argue that just one opportunity is sufficient; yet, there are billions who had zero opportunities, and there are some who enjoyed the opportunity to accept Christ as a mature adult making an independent, informed decision, yet still rejected him, perhaps dozens of times, then, finally, 80 years old and knowing death is imminent, finally do so... and they are just as saved.

I understand and, in fact, endorse the argument that we mortal creatures of limited minds can never truly understand the mind, the nature, the will, or the justice of God. But questioning is natural, genetic even, and not, in and of itself, sinful (so far as I see it). The disciples themselves questioned who Jesus truly was, argued about what He told them to do, denied their association with Him, and at least one doubted His legitimacy after the resurrection. Yet Jesus certainly forgave them all (and I think an argument can be made that even Judas was forgiven, considering the remorse he felt) and even asked forgiveness for his executioners who were not only denying His claims, but were actively mocking Him for them. To one of the other men being crucified there, who asked His forgiveness, Jesus told him that he would join Him in Paradise "this very day." There was no mention there of a pit stop in Hell before going to Heaven, and I really don't know where the belief that Jesus descended before ascending comes from.

In his controversial book, Love Wins, Rob Bell posed the question: Does God get what God wants? There is more than one verse that implies that, while we are all sinners and sin distances us from God in His perfection, God wants to reconcile all his children to Him. If God is perfect, then God gets what He wants. If all are not reconciled, eventually-- or, short of that, if all do not receive the same opportunity to choose this reconciliation, at the same level of cognitive acuity, not diminished by illness, condition of birth, circumstances of life that would cause extreme prejudice against it-- then, is God getting what he wants? If He doesn't get what he wants, can He be perfect?

jasonwrites said:

There is also evidence that can be interpreted to support annihilationism or universalism.

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have not seen anything that supports universalism

victorinus said:

have not seen anything that supports universalism

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In your heart are you willing 'to' see such a view?

anything?;

1 Corinthians 15:22 for even as in Adam ALL die, so also in the Christ ALL shall be made alive,

jasonwrites said:

There are multiple issues at play here. "Hell" is an English word. The modern understanding of Hell in the English-speaking world dates from the King James Bible, which used this single word as a translation for a number of Hebrew and Greek words including Sheol, Hades, etc. Earlier comments have explained this. My understanding is that "lake of fire" is a translation of the Greek gehenna which referred to a literal contemporary location, what was essentially the city dump outside Jerusalem where trash was burned. As more fuel was always being added to the pile, the fire there never went out-- it was unquenchable.

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Enjoyed your post, even though it was a bit too lengthy for my preferences. I'd like to comment a bit on what you said about Hell being translated from multiple different words.

As a matter of 'fact', the KJV which you mention, has the word hell in it 54 times. Then the New King James has it 34 times. The ASV and NAS have the word hell in them 13 times. The RSV 12 times. And multiple translations do not have the word hell in them at all.

But only those willing to seek will find out where did hell disappear to, and why.

DaveW-Ohev said:

Biblical definition of "death:" Separation from God. (not necessarily the cessation of consciousness)

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What is the meaning of death in Revelation 20 14?

AlexDTX said:

No, Hell and the Lake of Fire are two different things. Hell is jail, the Lake of Fire is execution. God will not put anyone into the Lake of Fire until after they have been judged and proven guilty at the White Throne Judgement. Once that is done for everyone who rejects the salvation freely given to all who will accept it, then the jail will be tossed into the Lake of Fire with Satan and his demons and the people who chose Satan over Jesus.

The two have become synonyms because after the Resurrection of our Lord, no believer went to Hell but to Heaven. So only all who die without Christ will be retained in Hell reserved for the White Throne Judgement and the Lake of Fire.

What this means is that before Jesus, everyone went to Hell. But those who died in faith of the coming Messiah were released when Jesus descended into Hell to set the captives free when he proclaimed the good news that redemption had been fulfilled.

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http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hell

the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits.

Der Alter said:

Your authority for the meaning of Hebrew, "word?"

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Learning Hebrew from the Jews.

Besides, occasionally we use "word" in that same sense:

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