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Hell or the lake of fire?

yeshuaslavejeff

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What does this verse mean?

2 Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Don't forget the context.... in part the 2 preceding verses ....
7 and to give you, those being oppressed, relief with us at the revelation of the Master Yahshua from Heaven with the host of His cherubs,
8 in flaming fire giving full vengeance to those not knowing Elohim, and to those not obeying the good news of our Master Yahshua Messiah, (Isa. 66:15; Jer. 10:25)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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do not understand how anyone can believe in eternal suffering
I think it was a tradition added, like many others,
long after GOD'S WORD was written simply and clearly.
For me it became much simpler and clearer the more I learned Hebrew.(from the simple word studies of Hebrew sources, meanings, and life).

many get lost in the bible
The Author is Willing to reveal what HE means to everyone who comes to HIM.
Like many disciples of Jesus though, disciples who walked away from HIM on earth when HE was here,
for many today , as always, it is "too hard to bear".
 
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Daniel9v9

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1. We are living in an age where God graciously sustains, provides and cares for all.
Matthew 5:45

2. Why? Because God is love. He is patient and He wills no one to suffer, but everyone to come into Christ.
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
1 John 4:8
2 Peter 3:9

3. But those who are dead in sin and reject God's grace will suffer eternal condemnation - this is a separation from God. If God is the true source of love, goodness and mercy, what you're left with is the polar opposite. This is hell. Being away from God forever.
Matthew 22:1-14

In a word, you could say that the second death, which is an eternal separation from God, is a direct result of man's attempt to be his own god.
 
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-57

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I never claime they were annihilated, cease to exist. That's pretty much JW language.
 
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AlexDTX

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Biblical definition of "death:" Separation from God. (not necessarily the cessation of consciousness)
Just curious. If separation from God is death, then all who are born with out God are already dead. Do you consider this to be the first death, or do you think the first death is when our spirits are separated from our bodies? Jesus said to the man who wanted to attend the funeral before following him, Let the dead bury their dead.

Also, the doctrine of omnipresence says that God is everywhere. If he is everywhere how can anyone be separated from him? David said in the psalms, "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (psalm 139:8).

This doctrine of separation from God as the definition of death falls short. However, if the Bible speaks of the common understanding of death, that is, the death of our bodies (and I think it does) the second death in the Lake of Fire means the everlasting death of our bodies where the worm dies not (that is the worms that decompose the bodies will continually decompose their bodies) and the fire is not quenched (as in oxidation like rust that corrodes metals) not. This looks like a continuous experience of bodily death, in my opinion.
 
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AlexDTX

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The forum needs a thumbs down icon. This is a lame proof texting without any real discussion.
 
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smithed64

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After primitive man evolved a concept of an afterlife, they devised rewards and punishments for good and bad ghosts. So this idea of an eternal torment was carried as a belief into various religions. There is either life or death.

Your right, to a point.

It's appointed for men to die....that part your right.
Then Christ......this is the part you forget.

Plus The Word of God, would disagree with you.
 
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eartheart

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Interesting points made here, I thank you all. I especially related to the post about the teacher asking kids to purge the world with truth/fire and how they missed the truth entirely.
Words are mans greatest weapon, a simple lie can be fabricated to seem to be of none questionable truth, and the fear it creates allows it to swallow souls like a black hole. A false doctrine believed by many can torment many more, and the truth is available by a simple prayer, asking.
I love how the bible reminds me that knowledge of the world is against God, for the love of this world includes all the wickedness in it. For God so loved the world that salvation is offered.
 
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toLiJC

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the biblical word "fire" indicates some force or means force as a whole, i.e. not necessarily fire (always) in the literal sense of the word

the "lake of fire" is a special place where the course of evil is reversed, e.g. if the devil is there, he will not be able to do what he would usually do while being free in the world, but he will only be able, and can even be forced, there, to do things against his will/plans, e.g. he will be likely to be kind of compelled by the force of that place(the "lake of fire") to cause harm/suffering to the souls of people there that served him while still living in this world, of course in case there will be such cast into that place

Blessings
 
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jasonwrites

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There are multiple issues at play here. "Hell" is an English word. The modern understanding of Hell in the English-speaking world dates from the King James Bible, which used this single word as a translation for a number of Hebrew and Greek words including Sheol, Hades, etc. Earlier comments have explained this. My understanding is that "lake of fire" is a translation of the Greek gehenna which referred to a literal contemporary location, what was essentially the city dump outside Jerusalem where trash was burned. As more fuel was always being added to the pile, the fire there never went out-- it was unquenchable.

To those that argue "this is what the Bible says," the fact is, there is no cut-and-dry interpretation of scripture, nor of Revelation in particular. If there was, we wouldn't still be having the same arguments twenty centuries later. There is evidence that can be interpreted to support the evangelical/fundamentalist view of eternal damnation including ceaseless torment for the vast majority of all human beings who ever have or will live. There is also evidence that can be interpreted to support annihilationism or universalism.

There are many, including myself, who feel that God cannot possibly be less just than humans. The U.S. Constitution prohibits "cruel and unusual" punishment, even for the most heinous of crimes. Obviously, we can't sentence anyone to infinite punishment, but there are cases where we make it even more finite than it has to be. The death penalty ends one's punishment at an earlier date than necessary, at least in this world. The majority of those who receive life sentences receive the eventual opportunity for parole.

Yet there are many who believe that God, in His "perfect justice," would condemn human beings to infinite punishment for finite sins. Of course, they may state that God isn't condemning us, we condemn ourselves in rejecting the singular opportunity of redemption. In Jesus, he offered one way of escaping this fate. But the vast majority of people who have ever lived either never heard of Christ, or were born into another religion. Most people who are brought up one way aren't going to turn from it, especially if it's an inextricably intertwined with their culture and society. So even if they eventually hear the Gospel, most won't convert. Still others are reared in cultures where Christianity is the norm or at the least the majority opinion, but they see the greed, hypocrisy, and even abuses wreaked by the leaders of the church. Add to that the reality of living in an age in which our scientific understanding has progressed to a point that we don't need God to explain anything about the universe, and we see it as a hallmark of intelligence and education to not accept claims without evidence.

Thus, if this fundamentalist belief is true, only a tiny fraction of God's created children will avoid eternal punishment. It's clear that our mortal lives do not offer us equal opportunities to accept the Grace of God offered through Christ. If this lifetime is the only chance to do so, then it's not just, if justice requires equality. One could argue that just one opportunity is sufficient; yet, there are billions who had zero opportunities, and there are some who enjoyed the opportunity to accept Christ as a mature adult making an independent, informed decision, yet still rejected him, perhaps dozens of times, then, finally, 80 years old and knowing death is imminent, finally do so... and they are just as saved.

I understand and, in fact, endorse the argument that we mortal creatures of limited minds can never truly understand the mind, the nature, the will, or the justice of God. But questioning is natural, genetic even, and not, in and of itself, sinful (so far as I see it). The disciples themselves questioned who Jesus truly was, argued about what He told them to do, denied their association with Him, and at least one doubted His legitimacy after the resurrection. Yet Jesus certainly forgave them all (and I think an argument can be made that even Judas was forgiven, considering the remorse he felt) and even asked forgiveness for his executioners who were not only denying His claims, but were actively mocking Him for them. To one of the other men being crucified there, who asked His forgiveness, Jesus told him that he would join Him in Paradise "this very day." There was no mention there of a pit stop in Hell before going to Heaven, and I really don't know where the belief that Jesus descended before ascending comes from.

In his controversial book, Love Wins, Rob Bell posed the question: Does God get what God wants? There is more than one verse that implies that, while we are all sinners and sin distances us from God in His perfection, God wants to reconcile all his children to Him. If God is perfect, then God gets what He wants. If all are not reconciled, eventually-- or, short of that, if all do not receive the same opportunity to choose this reconciliation, at the same level of cognitive acuity, not diminished by illness, condition of birth, circumstances of life that would cause extreme prejudice against it-- then, is God getting what he wants? If He doesn't get what he wants, can He be perfect?
 
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eartheart

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Perhaps the goal of the universal church is universalism with Christ in the forefront to save some of the Heathens born into their native religions, i believe that the church did have a fallen away into paganism but i support the idea that Jesus is the bait for Satan to save unbelievers. If Peter is the rock maybe thats why Christ himself rebuked him saying "get behind me Satan".
The Pope does bless or at least "take under his wings" a vast majority of the ancient religions.
Revelations support two groups of Christians which I find beautiful since the orthodox and the truth seeking bible thumpers are in a sense, at each others throat fighting the "good fight", just as the disciples did, as far as who was the greatest.
The Big Fish and the little ones.
 
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Hillsage

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have not seen anything that supports universalism
In your heart are you willing 'to' see such a view?

anything?;

1 Corinthians 15:22 for even as in Adam ALL die, so also in the Christ ALL shall be made alive,
 
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Hillsage

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Enjoyed your post, even though it was a bit too lengthy for my preferences. I'd like to comment a bit on what you said about Hell being translated from multiple different words.

As a matter of 'fact', the KJV which you mention, has the word hell in it 54 times. Then the New King James has it 34 times. The ASV and NAS have the word hell in them 13 times. The RSV 12 times. And multiple translations do not have the word hell in them at all.

But only those willing to seek will find out where did hell disappear to, and why.
 
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Sammy-San

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http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hell

the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits.
 
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Dave-W

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Your authority for the meaning of Hebrew, "word?"
Learning Hebrew from the Jews.

Besides, occasionally we use "word" in that same sense:

And now a word from our sponsors.
Can I have a word with you?
 
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