Hell is real

[timlamb]

So if a word doesn't have the particular meaning that you think it does then it is "meaningless"?

Aion, even as defined by my Bible concordance, means "an age"; aionios is derived FROM the word aion (which means "an age") and would more accurately mean "perpetual" (not "eternal"). And perpetual happens to be the definition given by Strong's - even though it is translated many times (most times) as "eternal".

So the word does have a meaning (so it's not "meaningless"). It just doesn't mean "eternal".

angelmom

I heard this a hundred times in the unorthodox thread. How many ages are there after judgement, Just the age eternal. Those who die in sin are in their eternal condition, just waiting to be judged and sent away. There is no new bodies or resurrection for the dead in sin, so they enter the 'Last Age' as sinful lost souls.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Such paucity of faith in Christ's power to draw all and willingness to save to the uttermost.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Oh and let's not forget how convenient it is for everyone to pretend they have the precise step by step, blow by blow of the experience of the "hereafter" and/or "Kingdom come" nailed down .... a place they've never been ..... LOL.

 

[icedtea]

Jim, you are correct, of course. Its an error which has crept in for some.
As usual, I forget the where, but it is in the Bible "Fear the one who can send you to Hell." That would be God, obviously. What of that? maybe it 'means' something different.
Found it: Luke 12:5.

 

[kept]

Hi Jim

I have already seen those raised and they have been addressed by others

I was specifically asking Howard Dean to show where believing in
eternal torment in hell is a requirement for being a christian (in general and on this board)

also

that eternal torment in hell is the penelty for Adams sin

kept

thanks

 

[JimfromOhio]

Of course, when people are teaching doctrines wrongly, fear is created. Certain doctrines have planted false fear throughout Christian history. Worst case scenerio, fear of something would happen is always often in everyone's mind.

The Bible repeatedly speak of two kinds of life—physical and spiritual, as well as two kinds of death—physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the immaterial part of us from our material body. Meaning our spirit will leave the temporary body and move on to eternal life. Spiritual death is the separation of a created being from God, who is the very Source of eternal life. The first two humans immediately died spiritually, where cut off from God, and corruption and decay entered the universe. Years later, they both died physically. My Christian view of life and death ends on a very positive future.

Faith in Jesus replaced our temporal doubts with eternal hope.

There is eternal death and there is eternal life. Because the Bible says so.

 

[icedtea]

Such paucity of faith in Christ's power to draw all and willingness to save to the uttermost.

Willingness yes. Some will refuse. That is true. He will not force them.
We do have faith in Christ's power. Not the power to overlook all sin as if it mattersw not and forget justice.

 

[icedtea]

Hi Jim

I have already seen those raised and they have been addressed by others

I was specifically asking Howard Dean to show where believing in
eternal torment in hell is a requirement for being a christian (in general and on this board)

Had to ask a mod. She said its still okay to post here. Though its obvious (to me)its a disagreement with the Bible and God's word.

 

[angelmom01]

This is your insults. We are not insulting you, we are pointing out your holier than thou comments. And errors.

Speaking of being "holier than thou"....

You mentioned Rev 14 earlier in relation to hell:

Rev 14:10-12 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the ~SMOKE~ of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

What is the SMOKE of their torment?

Isa 65:2-6 I have spread out my hands ~all the day~ unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; 3 A people that ~provoketh me to anger continually~ to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; 4 Which remain ~among the graves~, and lodge in the ~monuments~, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; 5 WHICH SAY, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; FOR ~I AM HOLIER THAN THOU~. THESE are ~A SMOKE~ in my nose, a fire that burneth ~all the day~. 6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, ~even recompense into their bosom~,

he recompenses IN THE EARTH (where does it say he does so "in hell"?)

Pro 11:30-31 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise. 31 Behold, the righteous shall be ~recompensed~ IN THE EARTH: ~much more~ the wicked and the sinner.

And when does that take place according to scripture?

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST.


angelmom

 

[icedtea]

Still waiting for comment on Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear;Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell, yes, I say to you, fear Him."

 

[timlamb]

That brings up the point

IF Jesus paid the price for us and the price for our sin

(And I firmly believe that He did and not mine only but the entire world - He is the Savior of the World)

And the price for our sin is eternal torment in hell (please show verses)

then why did Jesus not remain in hell being tormented forever by the angry God that took out His holy justifiable anger on Jesus on the cross?

The reason why Jesus paid for our sin by going thru DEATH is that DEATH is the penalty for sin (death was the penelty for Adam/Eves sin - no where is Adam or Eve told the penelty of sin was to fry in hell)

not some horror chamber of eternal torment

because if it was then its not paid in full

even logic would have to see that ?

kept

Very bad logic!

Jesus paid for the sin and then Conquered death, hence the resurrection. That is the gift to us whom believe on Him. We are given the judgement of death and seperation from God which results in torment, because we are without all that is good. It is eternal because God is eternal.

Your god is too small.

 

[timlamb]

Such paucity of faith in Christ's power to draw all and willingness to save to the uttermost.

Such paucity of Gods righteous character

 

[icedtea]

God is willing to save all, but some will refuse.

 

[timlamb]

oops, error

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Willingness yes. Some will refuse. That is true. He will not force them.

There are other ways to understand things besides this. But since this is your view, let me ask you:
Suppose out of the goodness of my heart I offer you a wonderful gift -- say a brand new house to live in you never have to pay for anything for the rest of your life to have it -- and let's say for sake of argument you decide No, thanks, you don't want it. Does that mean I should hunt you down and kill you?

We do have faith in Christ's power. Not the power to overlook all sin as if it mattersw not and forget justice.

The last statement there, once again, is a completely erroneous and unjustified false characterization of a view you do not share. (Mischaracterizing viewpoints you don't share is a separate problem on its own, and one that is not limited to just one side of the hell question. ) Believing in ultimate reconciliation of all does NOT mean believing that God leaves the guilty unpunished. It simply means that we view His punitive acts as ultimately REDEMPTIVE in nature, scope, and effect. There is nothing redemptive about roasting an erring idiotic human for all eternity.

 

[timlamb]

There are other ways to understand things besides this. But since this is your view, let me ask you:
Suppose out of the goodness of my heart I offer you a wonderful gift -- say a brand new house to live in you never have to pay for anything for the rest of your life to have it -- and let's say for sake of argument you decide No, thanks, you don't want it. Does that mean I should hunt you down and kill you?

No, but it leaves me homeless, without the gift, and the result is what it is.

 

[timlamb]

If you needed a kidney right this second or die and I offered you one of mine and you refused it, you are dead by choice. The choice is ours, life, or death.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

That's a good answer, Tim. But it does NOT leave you either dead or tortured in flames by my hand. And fact of the matter is, I, a mere human, would seek to find a workaround plan to provide you with a home one way or another. Do you think God is less of a caring Being than sinful me?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Tim, my previous post was to your previous, not your latest.

As for the kidney, if your kidney was incompatible with my blood type I'd have no choice BUT to refuse. So the analogy isn't exactly sound here.

 

[JimfromOhio]

There are other ways to understand things besides this. But since this is your view, let me ask you:
Suppose out of the goodness of my heart I offer you a wonderful gift -- say a brand new house to live in you never have to pay for anything for the rest of your life to have it -- and let's say for sake of argument you decide No, thanks, you don't want it. Does that mean I should hunt you down and kill you?

The last statement there, once again, is a completely erroneous and unjustified false characterization of a view you do not share. (Mischaracterizing viewpoints you don't share is a separate problem on its own, and one that is not limited to just one side of the hell question. ) Believing in ultimate reconciliation of all does NOT mean believing that God leaves the guilty unpunished. It simply means that we view His punitive acts as ultimately REDEMPTIVE in nature, scope, and effect. There is nothing redemptive about roasting an erring idiotic human for all eternity.

God has ALREADY forgiven them but waiting. But in order to restore their relationship with God from eternal death, they are to repent and acknowledge God and Jesus so that they can have eternal life. God ALREADY FORGAVE..... now He is WAITING for those to REPENT so that the relationship can be RESTORED. Remember the story about the rich ruler? Jesus looked after the rich young ruler as he walked away, but Jesus did not follow him or attempt to coerce him. Jesus wants people make their own moral choices; and Christ knew this and permitted rich ruler to go his own chosen way. Jesus is saying that He cannot do our repenting for us. He died for our sins, now it is up to THEM to pick up the cross.

Without the Holy Spirit, we NOT do have the "inability" to get saved. The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved. 1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. God has given the Holy Spirit to enable us to have a holy relationship with our Father. The key to holiness is submitting to the Spirit's control in daily life that will enable us to overcome the human nature and live through grace's sufficiency.