Hell is real

[icedtea]

Most of the people arguing that side right now do not belong here and I would say this thread most likely doesn't either.

I did not know where to start the thread. If it is that unorthodox, why are they allowed to post in christian only forums then?

 

[kept]

Jesus came to die for our sins so we wouldn't HAVE to go to Hell.
Then there is no excuse, we send ourselves there for refusing.
His death would be in vain if we all got saved whether we believed or not.
Its just not fair! to send people to Hell forever! Who do you think originated this idea? Satan, who wanted an out from his sentence.
Its fair, and just. We are without excuse.

------------------

I really would like to see some scripture again for the penelty of sin being eternal torment in hell

thanks

kept

 

[icedtea]

I already have with revelation 14:11 but then people claim forever doesn't mean forever, making words meaningless.

 

[timlamb]

I did not know where to start the thread. If it is that unorthodox, why are they allowed to post in christian only forums then?

they're not!

 

[kept]

So are you suggesting that belief in eternal torment

is a requirement for being a Christian?

Can you please show me that to in the Scripture?

kept

 

[icedtea]

No, I thought the mods or admins said something like that.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

There is just a whole different mind set to those who believe in universal salvation.

This is true, in many regards.

Their God is very small and they keep Him in a box.

This, however, is absolute falsehood in the extreme. Contrary to keeping God in a box of human devising, making Him altogether an one such as ourselves (which traditional vengeance-condoning notions do), our understanding breaks the box apart entirely and permits God to be GOD -- precisely Who He is -- whose ways and thoughts are as high above our own as the heavens are above the earth. (I say this in regard to human perceptions -- obviously NO ONE's notions of God are capable of limiting Him in reality; He always was, is, and always will be exactly Who He Is regardless what man thinks. But it is those who demand that God's sense of "justice" meet and exceed our own darkest desires for vengeance who put Him in a box -- not those who rejoice in and celebrate His awesome power to save and complete work in Christ.)

This conversation is relevent to eschatology because universalists see little urgency in salvation.

There are some things better than "urgency". Faith and hope are two such things. Seeing people come to Christ because of a grasp of the Father's heart of love, rather than out of slavish, selfish fear to escape punishment, is another.

While we would have faith in God if all were saved, they, for the most part, would abandon God at the proof of the reality of judgement and eternal torment.

Wrong again, friend. Like your previous statement, this evinces only your utter failure to grasp our position and our understanding in the matter. Please do not presume to speak for a group of people whom you not only do NOT represent, but by your own viewpoint CANNOT represent.

Most of the people arguing that side right now do not belong here and I would say this thread most likely doesn't either.

More words that reflect more upon the writer thereof than upon the objects of his ridicule. Speaking of which, I don't recall either granting you permission to state what is and is not "so" about ME nor you taking the time to get to know me sufficiently that you could even PRESUME to do so .....

 

[kept]

You thought they said that in order to be a 'Christian' you have to believe in eternal torment?

They use the nicene creed

which I uphold

it doesnt mention eternal torment

and I dont recall any teaching that says one must believe in eternal torment in hell in order to be saved

do you?

kept

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I already have with revelation 14:11 but then people claim forever doesn't mean forever, making words meaningless.

A proper study of the Greek words aion and aionios is what is needed here. The fact that Greek does not always translate neatly into English does not mean words become meaningless.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

You thought they said that in order to be a 'Christian' you have to believe in eternal torment?

They use the nicene creed

which I uphold

it doesnt mention eternal torment

and I dont recall any teaching that says one must believe in eternal torment in hell in order to be saved

do you?

I agree with Kept here. Show me (a) where in the Nicene creed it mentions eternal torment; (b) where in the Bible it states one MUST believe in an eternal torment hell in order to be saved.

 

[icedtea]

There are some things better than "urgency".

Seeing people come to Christ because of a grasp of the Father's heart of love, rather than out of slavish, selfish fear to escape punishment, is another.


.

Today is the day of salvation, says the bible. people could die at any time.

Not so! The only reason I became spiritually alive is because I read of the rapture and punishment. I did not want that. if I'd read God saves all eventually, I would never have gotten saved, sorry!

 

[kept]

Really,

my daughter is born again , and she has never believed in eternal torment.

I know its hard to fathom but 'fear of torment' is not

'If I am lifted up I will draw all men to myself'

although it does work on those whom need fear to motivate them

But some are more motivated by Love than fear

kept

 

[angelmom01]

The bible is clear about it.
See what happens when people are allowed to interpret scripture on their own? I'm starting to think the Catholics are right, it turns out much error filled beliefs. The bible can be twisted to make it seem however one wants to believe.

I would agree, but let me ask you this... do you believe that hell consists of an eternity of being BBQ'd alive in literal/physical flames of fire?

Because some DO believe that that is what hell is? And when those who did such a thing to their own children in the Old Testament to a FALSE GOD; God said that he commanded it not, that it was an abomination and that such a thing never even entered into his mind. He called it the valley of ~slaughter~.

But many still believe that God is going to DO that which he himself called an abomination? Something that he said never even entered into his mind? Because they say that for GOd to it it will be "justice" but for men to do it it was "evil".... because God knows who "deserves" it and we don't.

So, yes, I agree, many have twisted the scriptures and turned the word of God into something that it is not.... As even Christ (the Word of God made flesh) was beated beyond recognition.

angelmom

 

[angelmom01]

Today is the day of salvation, says the bible. people could die at any time.

Not so! The only reason I became spiritually alive is because I read of the rapture and punishment. I did not want that. if I'd read God saves all eventually, I would never have gotten saved, sorry!

And fear is ~the beginning~ of wisdom, not the end of it. Perfect love casteth out fear, right?

But many remain in a perpetual fear of going to hell.

angelmom

 

[icedtea]

But some are more motivated by Love than fear

kept

God motivated me to get saved, so then He espouses fear.

Sorry that some of us don't know love as well as you guys.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Those who are motivated by fear will continue to have problems related to that fear. Those who are drawn by the Father's heart of love will experience a relationship and understanding of God based in that. We each have the privilege of deciding what is important to us here. That is part of the freedom God gives us, to move from fear to joy at our own pace. But I do not believe it is the will of God for people to remain in fear-based perception toward Him permanently. Eventually, the time comes to leave childish things behind.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

God motivated me to get saved, so then He espouses fear.

No, Sis. For the hardness of our hearts He tolerates those things, but they are not His ultimate plan for us.

Sorry that some of us don't know love as well as you guys.

I don't know it half as well as I'd like to! But I am learning.

Neither did the Children of Israel. All they understood was lightning and thunder and quaking and judgments .... and look where it got them -- smack into repeated disobedience.

There has to be a better way ... and in Christ, there is.

For ALL of us. Not just a "privileged few". You too!

 

[icedtea]

We are not childish. Fear of judgment is exactly what got me and others saved.
AFTER we have been saved, the fear is gone, there is no longer any REASON for fear then. Simple!
Why people get caught up in this error still makes me wonder.

 

[kept]

Love is WHO God IS

I cant relate to ever being saved thru fear

I was set free from drug addiction , healed and delivered by LOVE

Fear was not the tool in Fathers hand for me

but I do understand it is used by a vast majority of christianity

kept

 

[timlamb]

This is true, in many regards.


This, however, is absolute falsehood in the extreme. Contrary to keeping God in a box of human devising, making Him altogether an one such as ourselves (which traditional vengeance-condoning notions do), our understanding breaks the box apart entirely and permits God to be GOD -- precisely Who He is -- whose ways and thoughts are as high above our own as the heavens are above the earth. (I say this in regard to human perceptions -- obviously NO ONE's notions of God are capable of limiting Him in reality; He always was, is, and always will be exactly Who He Is regardless what man thinks. But it is those who demand that God's sense of "justice" meet and exceed our own darkest desires for vengeance who put Him in a box -- not those who rejoice in and celebrate His awesome power to save and complete work in Christ.)

There are some things better than "urgency". Faith and hope are two such things. Seeing people come to Christ because of a grasp of the Father's heart of love, rather than out of slavish, selfish fear to escape punishment, is another.

Wrong again, friend. Like your previous statement, this evinces only your utter failure to grasp our position and our understanding in the matter. Please do not presume to speak for a group of people whom you not only do NOT represent, but by your own viewpoint CANNOT represent.

More words that reflect more upon the writer thereof than upon the objects of his ridicule. Speaking of which, I don't recall either granting you permission to state what is and is not "so" about ME nor you taking the time to get to know me sufficiently that you could even PRESUME to do so .....

As I said Howard, we have a whole different mindset, as this post proves convincingly.

They think restricting God to mercy and not judgement is freeing or liberating Him, while we see it as resticting His authority.

One thing I learned about the universalist faith after months of debate, is that they all believe very different and anything goes as long as you don't tell them there is eternal punishment. Then they get angry, as evidenced above.