Hell is real

andross77 said:

You chose to be a Universalist (Reconciliationist) b/c you thought God was sadistic by putting people in hell for eternity.

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Nope, sorry, but you're wrong there. I never did believe in eternal torment; from the time I first met Christ and studied scripture I saw no evidence for eternal torment there. I was originally an "annihilationist" as you call it. I did not "choose" the Reconciliation Awareness .... It (very viscerally at that) chose me. But that's a long story and this thread is not the appropriate place for it.

Well, hopefully those 2 verses showed you the error of your thoughts.

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Can't show me what isn't there. I'm sure there are places where my thoughts do err but on the question of the limitless scope of God's mercy, I seriously doubt it.

If you choose to ignore those Scriptures, i guess i can't help you. If you can explain them away, i'd be interested to hear how.

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Why would I want to ignore OR explain them away? Not only do I wholeheartedly believe what they say, I wholeheartedly believe what they say!!! I am not the one following them up with the word "BUT ..." and then digressing into a portrayal of God that completely contradicts those verses. Yet that is what believers in ET (eternal torment) & ED (everlasting death) do.

andross77 said:

Why? 70 years goes by in a flash. Then the suicidal people, prostitutes, sex slaves, drug addicts etc, will be reconciled to Christ in Paradise. Nothing could be better. And a short 70 years will be forgotten.

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Try being a suicidal junkie for a year and see how quickly it passes. See how little it matters...

andross77 said:

If you don't believe in hell and profess to be a Christian i think there are only 2 options. Either you believe EVERYONE, regardless of religion, will at some point be reconciled to Christ (i.e. heaven is full and hell is empty). Or you believe that everyone that didn't accept the sacrifice of Christ or follow his commands correctly or become saved, will just cease to exist. So there is no torture, they are annhiliated. They chose to live for themselves or some other "lie" during their lives on earth and so are not fit to spend eternity with the King.

What other option is there if you deny the existence of Hell?

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I do believe in hell, but I'm not too sure what hell is. There's also a third option, that people will be punished, but that there is an end to that punishment.

andross77 said:

What's so dangerous about being an annihilationist is that you do not have the complete Gospel message to present to people. Let's say you decide to do missions in wealthy parts of America. Let's say Beverly Hills. You will present your gospel and they will think, "hmmm, that's interesting. But if i don't believe in Christ it doesn't matter right? B/c he has died for all sins and i don't have to accept or anything?" And you will have to say, "Well, yeah. But you should, b/c it's right" That's when the solid oak door will shut in your face. Why? B/c wealth provides "comfort" and "security" and if they know they are going to end up in heaven anyways they don't care to be proselytized to.

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But if they don't belive in Jesus to begin with, threatening them with hell won't make them believe. If they don't think Jesus has anything to offer them apart from a ticket out of hell... I guess it depends on what sort of Jesus we preach.

There are, of course, people who in spite of testimony etc, won't see exactly what they need Christ for. They're pretty happy as things are right now. Perhaps some of them could be driven to Christ out of fear of hell, but I don't think that's the norm.

People came to Christ for all sorts of reasons, and apart from the guys who came just to accuse him, he never said that one reason was more valid than another. No, he accepted all who came to him, regardless of whether they came for salvation, forgiveness, healing or whatever reason they may have.

andross77 said:

The reason you "need" the fear of hell in your presentation of the gospel, is b/c it is part of the gospel. Revelations says don't add or take away from Christ's words.

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Actually, the book of Revelation refers to itself in that verse. But, point taken. I agree. But that doesn't mean I need to quote Jesus' every word to everyone to be sure I'm preaching the "full" gospel. Also, the "full" gospel wasn't around until it was revealed to Paul.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

I'm amazed people who haven't got the first clue about a position they oppose are nevertheless freely permitted to debate against it. Talk about tilting at windmills and erecting strawmen to burn on the mountaintop as beacons!

Aside from the interminable march of straw men and red herrings, there is the simple fact we could start with that "universalists" and "annihilationists" do NOT believe the same thing whatsoever. The annihilationist believes the exact same way people who believe in eternal torment, except for him the ultimate end is cessation of existence forever rather than roasting in agony forever. Roasted or roasting, it's still pretty much the same camp. The Christian "universalist" (Reconciliationist) believes any punitive or disciplinary act of God is ultimately part of a larger redemptive process rather than an end in itself.

In human society, spanking may be controversial for some, but the parent who spanks a child as part of loving, caring discipline, intending thereby to teach the child right from wrong and so advance its ultimate welfare, is generally seen as a good parent even if some might debate his methods. But we invariably look askance at the parent who beats a child in rage with mixed motives of self-satisfaction and exercising of that rage as being someone desperately sick and in need of intervention, at least for the child's sake even if the parent cannot be rehabilitated. Why, then, do we permit ourselves a monstrous picture of God as someone wallowing in sick pleasure at the torture of millions for His own personal gratification? If we, mere sinful humans, can clearly see such attitudes as sick and inhumane for people, why would we want to cling to some notion that God is sick and inhumane on a transcendant scale?

Look, even the annihilationists do better in this department, citing something like Ezekiel 33:11, at least, to picture God as pleading with people not to choose their own destruction .... [bible]Ezekiel 33:11[/bible] I may not agree with their annihilation hell any more than I agree with eternal torment BUT I can at LEAST respect them for trying to put the horse and cart in proper order, and depict God as one who takes NO pleasure in ANYONE's destruction, not even the "wicked"!!

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HowardDean said:

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

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Any chance you might address the questions that I asked about the verses in Rev 14 that you brought up first? I assume that you believe that they are also about the Lake of Fire, right? or no?

Thanks,

angelmom

ArmyMatt said:

St. Isaac the Syrain calls it the "scourge of God's love." The same love that chases the sinner into hell, welcomes the righteous into heaven. Any thoughts on this?

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Yes. I have some thoughts. It is always good to start with the Bible rather than with so-called Christian saints like Isaac of Nineveh who may or may not care to faithfully teach Biblical doctrine. (Isaac was a heretic in at least one way -- he was a Nestorian.)

The fires of hell are not the fires of God's love which is experienced as joy to the repentant and sorrow to the unrepentant. The minority of modern Eastern Orthodox Christians who hold to this unbiblical theology are incorrect. Rather, the fires of hell are the fires of God's hate by which he intends to destroy the non-Christian. See, e.g., Psalm 5:5-6. He forebears applying this retribution to the Christian because they are justified by faith in Christ's penal atonement. See, e.g., Romans 3:25-26.

A soteriology of justification presupposes that we are saved from a divine retribution rather than simply from a degenerated and unrepentant moral state. See, e.g., Hebrews 2:1-4. A soteriology of justification only by Christian faith presupposes that God will treat non-Christians differently than he will treat Christians, and that this fact is what divides the saved from the unsaved. See, e.g., Romans 11:20-22. A penal atonement theology presupposes that God responds to human evil with a talion (evil for evil) rather than a chastisement (good for evil). See, e.g., Galatians 3:10-13).

The Bible presupposes that the only appropriate form of divine retribution against human evil is with a talion rather than with a chastisement. See, e.g., Romans 3:5-6. This is a basic assumption of the entire Bible and is never the subject of dialogue. There is no Socratic dialogue in the Bible about the nature of divine retribution; it is a presumption that, absent a special dispensation, God punishes out of hate rather than love. Imagine how much Christian theology would be overturned if the Bible taught, as Socrates did in the Gorgias dialogue, that divine retribution is a chastisement rather than a talion!

But Christianity is not Platonic Theism; to the contrary, Paul's epistles denounce Platonic Theism vigorously. See. e.g., Romans 1. Instead, the Bible teaches that not all persons are forgiven by God and loved by God, only those who he has given the gifts of justification and faith. God does not love all his creatures, he only loves those he has chosen as his children, not those who he has created to be orphans.

God has a just personality as he describes in the Bible, whether you love him or hate him.

holo said:

Saved my life and given me a new heart, a new mind, love, peace, joy, hope, a future, friends, talents, forgiveness, dreams, strength, food, family, inspiration, determination, comfort, righteousness, freedom.

That's just off the top of my head.

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saved your life from WHAT???

holo said:

But we're not employees, we're children.

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Is that what you would say to Jesus when He spoke in parables? Not that I have the same thought level but even so my analogy deserved more respect. Jesus used workers and employers many times.

MrsJoy said:

holo said:

Saved my life and given me a new heart, a new mind, love, peace, joy, hope, a future, friends, talents, forgiveness, dreams, strength, food, family, inspiration, determination, comfort, righteousness, freedom.

That's just off the top of my head.

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saved your life from WHAT???

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From the opposite of all those things.

He has also literally saved my life on several occasions.

MrsJoy said:

saved your life from WHAT???

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Among other things, we are saved from God's wrath. God's wrath is his non-corrective punishment, his vengeance, his sword. We are saved from his hatred and his penalty for sin that he has announced and is now prepared to exact from each one of us who will not cling to Christ's bood propitiation:
All honor and Glory to our sovereign king who destroys all his enemies!

timlamb said:

Is that what you would say to Jesus when He spoke in parables? Not that I have the same thought level but even so my analogy deserved more respect. Jesus used workers and employers many times.

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Yes, but the way I see things, it's not until after Jesus' death that we (both jew and gentile) become children of God, heirs.

We are competitors and warriors and servants and all, but more than that we are God's children, we're born of him. I know that to my father, I may be a helper, a companion, a worker, a menace, a comforter, a slacker - but whatever role I may have, my identity is the same - I am his son.

you didn't answer my question
saved your life from what???

Ceridwen said:

All honor and Glory to our sovereign king who destroys all his enemies!

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Again, will you be happy to see your loved ones tormented forever? Will that satisfy your definition/lust for justice? Do you think it's fair, personally?

ArmyMatt [QUOTE said:

Since the Bible does say that those in torment are burned in the presence of the Lamb for all eternity,

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Sorry, it doesn't say that. You need to be more specific to debate this, the word eternity can take this either way. Rev. 14:10 says they will be tormented in his presence.

and King David says that if he were to go to hell, he'd find God there, then God is very present in hell.

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Wrong again. King David was expressing his trust in God, that God would never break His promise and abandon him. In the end, hell is cast into the lake of fire and so are those who's name is not in the book of Life. The lake of fire is the place prepared for the devil and his angels, not inhabited by God.

I guess the question is what makes hell different from heaven, and I believe that the difference is the attitude of the sinner. God's love is so vast and deep, that for the righteous person, it is paradise, because God's love is all he has ever wanted. For the sinner, who doesn't want God's love, it will be torment because it is what he has always rejected.

Love does not just accept, but it also condemns. God's love will condemn everytime the sinner was unloving, His compassion everytime the sinner was uncompassionate, His mercy everytime the sinner was merciless, etc. This will consume the sinner and cause more torment than any wrathful flame. St. Isaac the Syrain calls it the "scourge of God's love." The thing to keep in mind is, the same love that chases the sinner into hell, welcomes the righteous into heaven. Any thoughts on this?

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The rest of this is pretty good.

MrsJoy said:

you didn't answer my question
saved your life from what???

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Yes I did, but here it is again:

Jesus saved my life from death (suicide), from destruction, from fear, from hopelesness, from hell (whatever hell may actually be), from addiction, from depression, from low self-esteem, from loneliness, from anxiety, from hate and so forth. And he's still saving me from all these things daily, and he will continue to save me from these things in the future.

you did NOT say that before and I was wondering if you really understood that SIN and HELL are what He saved you from, not just a few minor things here on earth

holo said:

Again, will you be happy to see your loved ones tormented forever? Will that satisfy your definition/lust for justice? Do you think it's fair, personally?

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What difference does it make? I will have no sorrow or tears in heaven.

Do you think the lake of fire is an aquarium where we can watch fallen family members swim around in torment?

We will know the truth at that time and God will not need to explain Himself. Our family become only those who are family in Christ. There are no more ties and that grandpa that I loved so dearly who died shaking his fist at God, I will know why he is in Hell, and I will still love the Lord.

Let's get a Bible and start removing any verses that "offends" anyone. That will solve the disagreements.