Hell is real

Tim (and others) does it HELP any to understand that UR Believers (Christians who believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all with God in Christ) do NOT deny the fact that God does, indeed, execute justice, address the problem of sin, and not leave the guilty unpunished? Granted, it may still mean you don't share or accept our view -- fair enough -- but does it help to recognize that these are areas in which we are agreed even if we don't agree entirely on how, when, or why?

JimfromOhio said:

God has ALREADY forgiven them but waiting. .... God ALREADY FORGAVE..... now He is WAITING for those to REPENT so that the relationship can be RESTORED.

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I completely agree. Repentance is a critical part of the equation and will not be bypassed. The difference here is that I believe God's ultimate will -- that all come to repentance -- will be accomplished whereas you apparently do not share that blessed hope with me.

Remember the story about the rich ruler? Jesus looked after the rich young ruler as he walked away, but Jesus did not follow him or attempt to coerce him. Jesus wants people make their own moral choices; and Christ knew this and permitted rich ruler to go his own chosen way.

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I also agree with you here -- Jesus does not coerce anyone into following Him; this is why we do not SEE the ultimate salvation of all here, now, in this earthly life, because He grants to all their choices. Where we differ is that I believe God's word will not return to Him void, but ultimately EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord -- and this will be voluntary.

Without the Holy Spirit, we [do NOT have] the ["ability"] to get saved. The Holy Spirit is the only person that can quicken people to be saved. 1 Corinthians 2:14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. God has given the Holy Spirit to enable us to have a holy relationship with our Father.

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I completely agree with you here. It is the privilege of those who receive Christ here and now during our earthly lives to be made sons and daughters of God and receive His Holy Spirit. This is a privilege only believers may enjoy right now. It is not something everyone experiences but it is something everyone MAY experience if they receive Him. Where we differ is that I believe God wills to have all saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and in due time will make this manifest -- due time being GOD'S time, not our own. Things which are not seen now but are part of the Hope of the Gospel, and everyone who cherishes Christ has this same Hope in their hearts wherewith He had hope. This Hope makes us not ashamed; it is the love of Christ which is shed abroad within us.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

Tim (and others) does it HELP any to understand that UR Believers (Christians who believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all with God in Christ) do NOT deny the fact that God does, indeed, execute justice, address the problem of sin, and not leave the guilty unpunished? Granted, it may still mean you don't share or accept our view -- fair enough -- but does it help to recognize that these are areas in which we are agreed even if we don't agree entirely on how, when, or why?

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As much as I disagree with some of the "ultimate reconciliation", Christians are responsible to exercise caution and discernment, especially in temporal and spiritual matters. I believe in the Great Commission. We don't know who are elected to be saved. We just preach the Gospel to ALL and allow God handle the election part. Even though God is in control and He KNOWS who will accept and reject before the earth was even created. Jesus did die for ALL but the atonement is only for the elected (in other words, those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, repented and etc). In my position, God will not hold me responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all." These issues belong to God's omniscience.

There will be those who will go to hell and there will be those (God KNOWS who are His) will go to heaven. 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His,"

I believe the same way Moriah but Im probably a little less - its up to us type and a little more

He predestined - and in their own lot type

kept

PS great post by the way loved it

The Bible tells us that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom -- the beginning! People who deny the idea that God curses, penalizes, punishes, and condemns his creatures do not seem to be dealing with the real world. They do not seem to be listening to what God is telling about himself. God is telling us that his idea of justice is not a retribution of good for evil (chastisement), but a retribution of evil for evil (talion).

Think about all the people God has cursed and punished in the Bible! Adam and Eve (and every human by extension) were banished from Eden and placed under a penalty of suffering for eating the fruit. God killed almost all of the earth's inhabitants during the time of Noah. God cursed Abraham's enemies. God cursed Pharaoh when he would not release the Hebrews. God laid a curse upon Christ on the cross as a substitute for what he would have done to us.

And best of all, God shall bring an infinite and eternal curse upon all non-believers, showing himself to be infinitely glorious in his just vengeance.

These issues are not up in the air; this is part of what is meant when we speak of "Christianity." Christianity is a revealed religion with standard doctrines and it will not change if you don't like it.

Here are just some thoughts on hell that make the most sense to me. Since the Bible does say that those in torment are burned in the presence of the Lamb for all eternity, and King David says that if he were to go to hell, he'd find God there, then God is very present in hell.

I guess the question is what makes hell different from heaven, and I believe that the difference is the attitude of the sinner. God's love is so vast and deep, that for the righteous person, it is paradise, because God's love is all he has ever wanted. For the sinner, who doesn't want God's love, it will be torment because it is what he has always rejected.

Love does not just accept, but it also condemns. God's love will condemn everytime the sinner was unloving, His compassion everytime the sinner was uncompassionate, His mercy everytime the sinner was merciless, etc. This will consume the sinner and cause more torment than any wrathful flame. St. Isaac the Syrain calls it the "scourge of God's love." The thing to keep in mind is, the same love that chases the sinner into hell, welcomes the righteous into heaven. Any thoughts on this?

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

Tim (and others) does it HELP any to understand that UR Believers (Christians who believe in the ultimate reconciliation of all with God in Christ) do NOT deny the fact that God does, indeed, execute justice, address the problem of sin, and not leave the guilty unpunished? Granted, it may still mean you don't share or accept our view -- fair enough -- but does it help to recognize that these are areas in which we are agreed even if we don't agree entirely on how, when, or why?

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You must admit not every one who claims eternal salvation believes what you stated, a minority infact. That is why they align with the unitarian fellowship so easily.

You sound like a person of faith and though I disagree on the point of eternal damnation I believe your faith is a saving one.

I guess the question is what makes hell different from heaven, and I believe that the difference is the attitude of the sinner. God's love is so vast and deep, that for the righteous person, it is paradise, because God's love is all he has ever wanted. For the sinner, who doesn't want God's love, it will be torment because it is what he has always rejected.

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Isaiah brings out this idea:

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly (Isa. 33:14, 15)

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The love of God is something the righteous can stand (and indeed, desire), but those who have rejected God's love cannot stand to be near God.

timlamb said:

How true, God commands a respectful fear. Just as we would fear an employer who we were committing a wrong against, at would expect to lose favor if caught. With God we get away with nothing and those who are not loving God for the forgiveness paid for by Jesus will lose their life eternal.

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But we're not employees, we're children.

Ceridwen said:

The Bible tells us that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom -- the beginning!

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Then why are muslims so ignorant? They're terrified of God.

Fearing God isn't to be afraid of him.

Ceridwen said:

And best of all, God shall bring an infinite and eternal curse upon all non-believers, showing himself to be infinitely glorious in his just vengeance.

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Best of all?

Again, will you actually rejoice and praise God when you see your loved ones being tormented forever?

holo said:

I hope you're getting more out of your relationship with the Lord than this...

I mean, if life doesn't have "structure and meaning" without the threat of hell... I just don't know what to say to that...

But personally, if hell doesn't exist and everybody gets saved eventually, I'm just as grateful for what Jesus has done for me and I'd cling to him just as hard as I'm doing right now. He's more than a safety belt.

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I DO get more out of my relationship with the Lord than fear of the threat of hell, thank you very much .

But you just don't get it. Even though living for Christ is the best possible way to live, there is NO NEED TO. Since we will all eventually be won over by his grace and love (so say you universalists or annihilationists), we should live however we see fit (whether it's as a practicing homosexual, a greedy business man full of the love of money, a lazy person who doesn't keep a job for more than a few months, etc) and EVENTUALLY we will be spending eternity with the Father.

What is the advantage of following the Christian set of rules on earth? There is none. There will be a different life experience, but our mortal lives are only 60-100 years. This is INFINITELY SMALL compared to eternity. 100 years means NOTHING (if we all are reconciled to the Father).

It makes NO LOGICAL sense that everyone, regardless of beliefs or anything, just show up in heaven. It is also disagrees with Scripture and the very words of Christ, which acknowledge an eternal place of torment for all unbelievers (hell). It is wishful thinking and dangerous thinking to be a Universalist or Annihilationist.

andross77 said:

I DO get more out of my relationship with the Lord than fear of the threat of hell, thank you very much .

But you just don't get it. Even though living for Christ is the best possible way to live, there is NO NEED TO.

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Sure there is. There are millions of junkies, prostitutes, sick people, restless people, people who simply don't know God, hopeless people, suicidal people, etc etc. Of course there's a need to know Jesus.

andross77 said:

Since we will all eventually be won over by his grace and love (so say you universalists or annihilationists),

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Just for clarity, I haven't landed on a definite position on these things. I'm pretty sure I'm not a universalist though

andross77 said:

we should live however we see fit (whether it's as a practicing homosexual, a greedy business man full of the love of money, a lazy person who doesn't keep a job for more than a few months, etc) and EVENTUALLY we will be spending eternity with the Father.

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Well, in a way I DO live like I see fit. My spirit has been born of God, I have a new heart and a renewed mind etc etc. I do pretty much as I please. And because of the Lord, my will is to do good.

andross77 said:

What is the advantage of following the Christian set of rules on earth? There is none. There will be a different life experience, but our mortal lives are only 60-100 years. This is INFINITELY SMALL compared to eternity. 100 years means NOTHING (if we all are reconciled to the Father.

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That's a good point - but it could be argued that however small a lifespan is, God is still interested in being a part of it (but again, I'm not a universalist).

andross77 said:

It is wishful thinking and dangerous thinking to be a Universalist or Annihilationist.

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I fail to see what's so dangerous about being an annihilationist - I mean, if I need the fear of eternal hell to be motivated to share the gospel, there's something lacking to begin with IMO.

holo said:

Sure there is. There are millions of junkies, prostitutes, sick people, restless people, people who simply don't know God, hopeless people, suicidal people, etc etc. Of course there's a need to know Jesus.

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Why? 70 years goes by in a flash. Then the suicidal people, prostitutes, sex slaves, drug addicts etc, will be reconciled to Christ in Paradise. Nothing could be better. And a short 70 years will be forgotten.

holo said:

Just for clarity, I haven't landed on a definite position on these things. I'm pretty sure I'm not a universalist though

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If you don't believe in hell and profess to be a Christian i think there are only 2 options. Either you believe EVERYONE, regardless of religion, will at some point be reconciled to Christ (i.e. heaven is full and hell is empty). Or you believe that everyone that didn't accept the sacrifice of Christ or follow his commands correctly or become saved, will just cease to exist. So there is no torture, they are annhiliated. They chose to live for themselves or some other "lie" during their lives on earth and so are not fit to spend eternity with the King.

What other option is there if you deny the existence of Hell?

holo said:

I fail to see what's so dangerous about being an annihilationist - I mean, if I need the fear of eternal hell to be motivated to share the gospel, there's something lacking to begin with IMO.

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What's so dangerous about being an annihilationist is that you do not have the complete Gospel message to present to people. Let's say you decide to do missions in wealthy parts of America. Let's say Beverly Hills. You will present your gospel and they will think, "hmmm, that's interesting. But if i don't believe in Christ it doesn't matter right? B/c he has died for all sins and i don't have to accept or anything?" And you will have to say, "Well, yeah. But you should, b/c it's right" That's when the solid oak door will shut in your face. Why? B/c wealth provides "comfort" and "security" and if they know they are going to end up in heaven anyways they don't care to be proselytized to.

The reason my example uses wealthy people is because poor or sick or people in danger will response to a loving Savior more readily b/c of their current situation. And this is good. But it is a false perspective. Whether we have great riches or not enough money to buy food for tomorrow, we all need to know that we are very sick (sin) and in need of a Savior (Jesus) or we will suffer eternally. This is a dire situation. But thanks be to God who has provided a way out in his Son.

The reason you "need" the fear of hell in your presentation of the gospel, is b/c it is part of the gospel. Revelations says don't add or take away from Christ's words. By saying hell doesn't exist, you are taking away from his message. A message found in Scripture. A message that Jesus himself confirmed and warned about time and time again.

I'm amazed people who haven't got the first clue about a position they oppose are nevertheless freely permitted to debate against it. Talk about tilting at windmills and erecting strawmen to burn on the mountaintop as beacons!

Since we will all eventually be won over by his grace and love (so say you universalists or annihilationists)

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Aside from the interminable march of straw men and red herrings, there is the simple fact we could start with that "universalists" and "annihilationists" do NOT believe the same thing whatsoever. The annihilationist believes the exact same way people who believe in eternal torment, except for him the ultimate end is cessation of existence forever rather than roasting in agony forever. Roasted or roasting, it's still pretty much the same camp. The Christian "universalist" (Reconciliationist) believes any punitive or disciplinary act of God is ultimately part of a larger redemptive process rather than an end in itself.

In human society, spanking may be controversial for some, but the parent who spanks a child as part of loving, caring discipline, intending thereby to teach the child right from wrong and so advance its ultimate welfare, is generally seen as a good parent even if some might debate his methods. But we invariably look askance at the parent who beats a child in rage with mixed motives of self-satisfaction and exercising of that rage as being someone desperately sick and in need of intervention, at least for the child's sake even if the parent cannot be rehabilitated. Why, then, do we permit ourselves a monstrous picture of God as someone wallowing in sick pleasure at the torture of millions for His own personal gratification? If we, mere sinful humans, can clearly see such attitudes as sick and inhumane for people, why would we want to cling to some notion that God is sick and inhumane on a transcendant scale?

Look, even the annihilationists do better in this department, citing something like Ezekiel 33:11, at least, to picture God as pleading with people not to choose their own destruction .... [bible]Ezekiel 33:11[/bible] I may not agree with their annihilation hell any more than I agree with eternal torment BUT I can at LEAST respect them for trying to put the horse and cart in proper order, and depict God as one who takes NO pleasure in ANYONE's destruction, not even the "wicked"!!

timlamb said:

I heard this a hundred times in the unorthodox thread. How many ages are there after judgement, Just the age eternal. Those who die in sin are in their eternal condition, just waiting to be judged and sent away. There is no new bodies or resurrection for the dead in sin, so they enter the 'Last Age' as sinful lost souls.

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I never said that people do not die in their sins, nor did I say that all enter into the kingdom of heaven and recieve eternal life.

Can you define what eternal life is? And when/how one receives it (as you understand it)?

angelmom

HowardDean said:

Still waiting for comment on Luke 12:5 But I will show you whom you should fear;Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell, yes, I say to you, fear Him."

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Who has denied that the wicked are cast into hell? I thought we were discussing ~what~ hell is, not whether or not it exists??

No one can deny that the scriptures speak of BOTH "hades" and "Gehenna" (both translated "hell", as well as "sheol" from the OT).

angelmom

One of the good things I see happening in this discussion is we are starting to hit the "meta" level -- that is, starting to examine underlying assumptions and ask real questions that should concern us all regardless of our position on the hell question. Questions like, what, really, is the motivation for accepting Christ? For sharing the Gospel? What kinds of assumptions do we have about people in sharing Christ with them? Is the point of embracing Christ merely to obtain comfort and security? If the rich and famous reject Christ because they don't need comfort and security beyond what the world has given them, does that speak more about them as people or more about what flavor of Gospel was presented to them? Are there perhaps other, better appeals that can be made? Are there perhaps other, better reasons for embracing Christ than some of the ones we are traditionally taught to use?

Lots going on here .... if nothing else thanks everyone for some meaty discussion!

JimfromOhio said:

As much as I disagree with some of the "ultimate reconciliation", Christians are responsible to exercise caution and discernment, especially in temporal and spiritual matters. I believe in the Great Commission. We don't know who are elected to be saved. We just preach the Gospel to ALL and allow God handle the election part. Even though God is in control and He KNOWS who will accept and reject before the earth was even created. Jesus did die for ALL but the atonement is only for the elected (in other words, those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, repented and etc). In my position, God will not hold me responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all." These issues belong to God's omniscience.

There will be those who will go to hell and there will be those (God KNOWS who are His) will go to heaven. 2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His,"

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So it's by God's "election" and not by "choice"?

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

I'm amazed people who haven't got the first clue about a position they oppose are nevertheless freely permitted to debate against it. Talk about tilting at windmills and erecting strawmen to burn on the mountaintop as beacons!

Aside from the interminable march of straw men and red herrings, there is the simple fact we could start with that "universalists" and "annihilationists" do NOT believe the same thing whatsoever. The annihilationist believes the exact same way people who believe in eternal torment, except for him the ultimate end is cessation of existence forever rather than roasting in agony forever. Roasted or roasting, it's still pretty much the same camp. The Christian "universalist" (Reconciliationist) believes any punitive or disciplinary act of God is ultimately part of a larger redemptive process rather than an end in itself.

In human society, spanking may be controversial for some, but the parent who spanks a child as part of loving, caring discipline, intending thereby to teach the child right from wrong and so advance its ultimate welfare, is generally seen as a good parent even if some might debate his methods. But we invariably look askance at the parent who beats a child in rage with mixed motives of self-satisfaction and exercising of that rage as being someone desperately sick and in need of intervention, at least for the child's sake even if the parent cannot be rehabilitated. Why, then, do we permit ourselves a monstrous picture of God as someone wallowing in sick pleasure at the torture of millions for His own personal gratification? If we, mere sinful humans, can clearly see such attitudes as sick and inhumane for people, why would we want to cling to some notion that God is sick and inhumane on a transcendant scale?

Look, even the annihilationists do better in this department, citing something like Ezekiel 33:11, at least, to picture God as pleading with people not to choose their own destruction .... [bible]Ezekiel 33:11[/bible] I may not agree with their annihilation hell any more than I agree with eternal torment BUT I can at LEAST respect them for trying to put the horse and cart in proper order, and depict God as one who takes NO pleasure in ANYONE's destruction, not even the "wicked"!!

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Sadly, i lost my long post so i have to repost. I'll make this quick. Have you ever read 2 Peter 3:9? It says God wishes that none would perish, that everyone would come to repentance. Have you ever read Psalm 5:4? It says God does not take pleasure in evil.

I stated in my earlier posts the differences between Universalism and Annihilationism. They are both very different and both equally false interpretations of Scripture. Annihilationism isn't even close to traditional, orthodox Christianity. Finite torment can not even begin to compare to infinite separation from God.

You chose to be a Universalist (Reconciliationist) b/c you thought God was sadistic by putting people in hell for eternity. Well, hopefully those 2 verses showed you the error of your thoughts. If you choose to ignore those Scriptures, i guess i can't help you. If you can explain them away, i'd be interested to hear how.

i have to go now, but i'll check back later.

JimfromOhio said:

As much as I disagree with some of the "ultimate reconciliation", Christians are responsible to exercise caution and discernment, especially in temporal and spiritual matters. I believe in the Great Commission. We don't know who are elected to be saved. We just preach the Gospel to ALL and allow God handle the election part. Even though God is in control and He KNOWS who will accept and reject before the earth was even created. Jesus did die for ALL but the atonement is only for the elected (in other words, those who are convicted by the Holy Spirit to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, repented and etc). In my position, God will not hold me responsible to understand the mysteries of election, predestination, and the divine sovereignty. The best and safest way to deal with these is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all." These issues belong to God's omniscience.

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I can respect that kind of view, to a degree.

If you got to heaven and Adolf Hitler was there and greeted you as a brother, would you trust God to know what He is doing? Would you trust Him that no way would Adolf Hitler -- OR YOU OR I -- by any means enter heaven if our presence there would defile it? Would you trust Him that through Christ He has made full atonement and full provision to completely cleanse and eliminate the deepest, darkest, most filthy and wretched, horrible and ugly and heinous of ALL sins that ever was or ever could be inside a human being?

I could, I would, and I do. I choose to believe that God is infinitely powerful and has infinite resources beyond all we can ask or think, and that Christ's victory on the Cross is complete, unlimited and indisputable. It MORE than makes up for what Adam's sin wrought.

When you stand before the Great White Throne -- or whatever your understanding of The Final Judgment is -- if you see a group to one side marked for destruction, are you simply going to bow your head quietly and walk into heaven? Or are you going to pause a moment before the Throne and say, "Father, I know You have already given and done everything to make heaven possible to us all, and it is only by Your grace and mercy that I am entering into the joy of my Lord ... but Father, if it at all be possible, could one of those take my place?"