Hell is real

angelmom01 · Mar 8, 2007

MrsJoy said:
actually, the word there is not all, but many.
and we are to take the whole counsel of the word of God.
but the word here much and many.

I know the word is "many" Mrs Joy.

Was it only "many" who were made sinners or were ALL made sinners?

angelmom

angelmom01 · Mar 8, 2007

MrsJoy said:
aion {ahee-ohn'}

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
again, this is the other part of that deffinition.
and again,
when one is attempting to translate you do not assume that all the deffinitions apply, and if some obviously do not , they are disregarded. it's elementary to translation.
it does not mean that NONE Of the definitions are true.
it means that that particular one is not what was meant.

Who says that those are all "defintions" of the word?

As I see it, that is a list/description of how the word was used/translated in various places in scripture. How does that make them ALL proper definitions of the same (ONE) Greek word?

Your not even talking "synonyms" here. If it had listed only "everlasting" and "eternal" I could understand how you might see it that way.

But everlasting and eternal are in no way shape or form equivelants of "world" or "age".

But if you want to insist that they are ALL definitions of the same word, then how does that prove that it was used correctly when it was traslated "everlasting" or "eternal" IF THERE ARE OTHER DEFINITIONS that ~could~ apply to the same word?

How is it that the same word can mean eternal/everlasting AND world AND AGE? Do those three words mean the same in English?

angelmom

holo · Mar 9, 2007

MrsJoy said:
btw...this phrase makes me think of little children arguing with a parent.

but I digress.

Fair?
what would that be?

What rights do we have?
the right to be seperated from God forever.
that's the only right we have.
That's what would be "fair"

I basically agree with this. I think we get to choose between justice and grace. If God gave me what I deserved, it wouldn't look pretty. But it wouldn't be eternal suffering. But yeah, I'll go for grace, with all that grace encompasses

holo · Mar 9, 2007

Ceridwen said:
God died for Christians. He did not pay the price for the sins of Non-Christians. That is precisely why non-Christians shall not be justified. If he died for them, then they would be forgiven. They are unforgiven by him, ergo, he did not die for them.

I think we're ALL forgiven, but not everybody accepts that gift. Your view sounds more like a concept of fate, or that God has already decided who gets saved and who doesn't. What does this mean to people who are saved, but then turn away from God? Did he die for them?

Ceridwen said:
Jonathan Edwards is well regarded as the greatest American Theologian. But more importantly, he was a Biblical theologian, and he said nothing about God's vengeance or the affections of the saints that God did not previously say in his self-revelation and guide for salvation, the Bible. Let's see some more reference to the Word on this thread, because it is the ultimate authority in all discussions theologic.

Just out of curiosity, why is the bible the final authority here (and which bible, btw)? Anyway, all these translations of variations of scripture are ievitably subject to interpretation - so we can't just refer to the bible, we must have the correct interpretation of it.

timlamb · Mar 9, 2007

holo said:
That sounds pretty cynical to me, sort of like "it doesn't matter too much that mum will be in hell forever, because in heaven I will forget about it anyway" - I mean, it's good for you to forget such a thing, but it will be just as bad for her.

Click to expand...

I clairified that statement in the part of my post you left out.

icedtea · Mar 9, 2007

I think one should believe what the bible says and has always said.
Daniel 12:2.

angelmom01 · Mar 9, 2007

HowardDean said:
I think one should believe what the bible says and has always said.
Daniel 12:2.

Amen, so do I.

Dan 12:2 And many of them ~THAT SLEEP~ in the dust of the earth ~SHALL AWAKE~, some to everlasting LIFE, and some to SHAME and everlasting CONTEMPT.

I wonder how that relates to:

Joh 5:25-29 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, ~AND NOW IS~, when ~THE DEAD~ shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they THAT HEAR ~SHALL LIVE~. 26 For as the Father hath LIFE in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have LIFE in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ~all that are in the graves~ SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, 29 AND SHALL COME FORTH; they that have done good, unto the resurrection ~OF LIFE~; and they that have done evil, unto ~the resurrection of damnation~.

Rom 14:7-10 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we LIVE, ~we live unto the Lord~; and whether we DIE, ~we die unto the Lord~: whether we LIVE therefore, OR DIE, ~we are the Lord's~. 9 For to this end Christ ~BOTH~ ((died, and rose)), ~and~ ((revived)), that he might be Lord BOTH of ~THE DEAD~ and ~LIVING~. 10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Wow, so who are the "dead" that Christ is Lord of and who sleep in the ~dust~ of the ~earth~ who shall ~AWAKE~ (some to ~everlasting LIFE~ and some to ~everlasting contempt~)?

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; ~because we thus judge~, that if one died ~for all~, then were ALL ~dead~:

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have ~no life~ in you.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, ~AWAKE thou that SLEEPEST~, and ~ARISE FROM THE DEAD~, and Christ shall give thee light.

Pro 11:31 Behold, the righteous ~shall be recompensed IN THE EARTH~: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: ~for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just~.

Which goes right back to:

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, ~AWAKE thou that SLEEPEST~, and ~ARISE FROM THE DEAD~, and Christ shall give thee light.

We either pass from DEATH unto LIFE (awaking from our SLEEP so that Christ can give us LIFE) or we abide IN DEATH, walking in darkness (those who SLEEP, sleep AT NIGHT).

Christ comes ~as a thief IN THE NIGHT~ (wonder if that is to "wake us up"??)

Heb 4:4-11 For he spake in a certain place of ~the seventh~ day on this wise, And God ~did rest the seventh day~ from all his works. 5 And in this place ~again~, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 ~AGAIN~, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, ~TODAY~, after so long a time; as it is said, ~TODAY~ IF YE WILL ~HEAR~ HIS VOICE, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of ~another~ day. 9 There remaineth therefore ~a rest~ to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, LEST any man ~FALL~ after the same example ~of unbelief~.

Chirst is Lord over BOTH the ~living~ AND ~tha dead~ because he went to the cross and BOTH ((DIED AND ROSE)) .... ~AND~ ... ((REVIVED))

Col 3:3-4 For ye are ~DEAD~, and your ~LIFE~ IS HID WITH CHRIST IN GOD. 4 ~When~ Christ, WHO IS OUR LIFE, ~shall appear~, THEN shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Ever wonder why Hades means "unseen"?

Joh 17:3 And THIS ~IS~ LIFE ETERNAL, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jo 5:9-13 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for ~this is the witness~ of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He ~that believeth~ on the Son of God ~hath the witness IN HIMSELF: he that ~believeth not~ God hath made him a liar; BECAUSE HE BELIEVETH NOT THE RECORD that God gave of his Son. 11 And THIS IS THE RECORD, that God ~hath given~ to us ETERNAL LIFE, and THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. 12 He that ~hath the Son~ hath LIFE; and he that ~hath not the Son~ of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you ~that believe~ on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that YE HAVE ~ETERNAL LIFE~, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

God is so awesome!!

Pro 25:2It is the glory OF GOD ~to conceal a thing~: but the honour OF KINGS ~is to search out a matter.~

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which ~man's wisdom~ teacheth, but which the ~Holy Ghost~ teacheth; comparing ~SPIRITUAL~ things with ~SPIRITUAL~.

angelmom

Leah · Mar 9, 2007

HowardDean said:
I think one should believe what the bible says and has always said.
Daniel 12:2.

Best post in this entire discussion, yet.

God is justice. God has justice. God deals out justice. Whatever. The point is, He will give to each person according to their deeds, be they good or bad.

Too much silly nitpicking over words.

angelmom01 · Mar 9, 2007

God ~is~ LOVE and God ~is~ JUST.

What some are calling justice is what GOD called slaughter and an abomination.

Are the wicked damned? YES!

Is the damnation of the wicked just? YES!!

Does God pour out His wrath upon the disobedient? YES!! It abides ON THEM already!

Is that just? YES!!

Will God repay? YES!!

Is God angry with the wicked? YES, every day!

Will God recompense the righteous, as well as the wicked and the sinner? YES!!

Yes, the wicked and unbelieving are damned and they will be recompensed for the Lord is angry with them and His wrath abides ON THEM and he will REPAY them for their disobedience. And HIS JUDGMENTS are JUST!!

But God is NOT A MAN that he will meet us AS A MAN.

His ways are HIGHER (not lower) than OUR WAY so let EVERY MAN be a liar and GOD BE TRUE!!

Its a shame that trying to actually know what these words mean and how they are actually used and defined ~BY GOD~ in the scriptures that have been given to us "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" is considered nitpicking.

Forgive ~us~ Lord ~AS WE~ forgive others.

Blessed are the merciful for ~they~ shall obtain mercy.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

angelmom

MrsJoy · Mar 9, 2007

LOL
WE are in fact to forgive and have mercy on others, but that does not save them from their sins.

angelmom01 · Mar 9, 2007

MrsJoy said:
LOL
WE are in fact to forgive and have mercy on others, but that does not save them from their sins.

No it doesn't; Christ does.

MrsJoy · Mar 9, 2007

exactly my point

Moriah_Conquering_Wind · Mar 9, 2007

angelmom01 said:
Rom 5:19-21

For as by one man's disobedience many (all ) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (ALL, as it is the ~same~ "many" who were made sinners that will be made righteous) be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. ~BUT~ where sin abounded, grace did ~MUCH MORE~ abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you see, sometimes "many" means "all". Unless someone wants to say that not all were made sinners?

angelmom

You might be interested in a solid, clear, accessible Exegesis of Romans 5:18-19.
It has been reposted here: Exegesis of Romans 5:18-19
Unfortunately the thread is closed already so we can't post responses there, and discussing it is not permitted here in this section -- but I offer the link for everyone's edification on the question of "how many are the many".

StevenL · Mar 11, 2007

Good job angelmom. You've done your homework!

timlamb · Mar 11, 2007

angelmom01 said:
Rom 5:19-21

For as by one man's disobedience many (all ) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (ALL, as it is the ~same~ "many" who were made sinners that will be made righteous) be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. ~BUT~ where sin abounded, grace did ~MUCH MORE~ abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you see, sometimes "many" means "all". Unless someone wants to say that not all were made sinners?

angelmom

Universalists live 'out of context'.

All were made unrighteous by one man, and all were given righteousness by the gift of one man, but it must be accepted and recieved. Lest you argue whether we accept unrighteousness, I think by 4 or 5 we all have lied or stolen or done something to live up to the sin nature made evident from Adam.

Romans 5:17
"For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will THOSE WHO RECEIVE GOD'S ABUNDANT PROVISION OF GRACE and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."

Only a few scripture forward or back usually explain the one you're reading. Many does mean many, but it only speaks of the gift, the sacrifice made available, it must be recieved and that leaves many unsaved.

mnmcandiez · Mar 11, 2007

I'm not really sure on the concept of hell. Perhaps its just not existing, or being in a world like situation again.

icedtea · Mar 11, 2007

"If you are not born again, you cannot even see the kingdom of God."
Many will not be in Heaven, ever.

timlamb · Mar 11, 2007

mnmcandiez said:
I'm not really sure on the concept of hell. Perhaps its just not existing, or being in a world like situation again.

Hell is a catch all word we use. As shown in Revelation Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire. I believe the burning to be the burning of the heart for unsatisfied lusts and guilt and anger. Your residence for eternity is a choice made and the torment is self inflicted.

icedtea · Mar 11, 2007

timlamb said:
Your residence for eternity is a choice made and the torment is self inflicted.

Truth.

angelmom01 · Mar 11, 2007

timlamb said:
Universalists live 'out of context'.

All were made unrighteous by one man, and all were given righteousness by the gift of one man, but it must be accepted and recieved. Lest you argue whether we accept unrighteousness, I think by 4 or 5 we all have lied or stolen or done something to live up to the sin nature made evident from Adam.

Romans 5:17
"For if, by the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will THOSE WHO RECEIVE GOD'S ABUNDANT PROVISION OF GRACE and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ."

Only a few scripture forward or back usually explain the one you're reading. Many does mean many, but it only speaks of the gift, the sacrifice made available, it must be recieved and that leaves many unsaved.

And what was "out of context" timlamb? I quote one set of verses and the only comment that I made on them was that the "many" mentioned in the verse included all men. Unless (as I said) you want to claim that not all were made sinners?

Now even you yourself said (emphasis mine):

All were made unrighteous by one man, and ALL were given righteousness by the gift of one man

But then you turn right around and say:

Many does mean many

No, timlamb, you yourself admit that the "many" who were made sinners were ALL men; you even go further and admit that the same "many" (all) who were made sinners were made righteous.

Now if you want to claim that one can be "made righteous" but not ~be~ righteous or that one can be "made righteous" and ~lose~ their righteousness or ~refuse~ that righeousness, then make the appropriate claim, as my comments were not even about "Universalist", timlamb. I was commenting specifically on the meaning of the words and how the "many" in this verse referred to "all" (and not just a few and not just some and not just most, but ALL), which you yourself admit.

I was making a point for a completely different reason.

If that rubs you the wrong way because of what you think others believe BECAUSE OF what that verse says then sobeit but don't act as if "many really means many" when we know that it doesn't (in this verse - and there are others if you would like me to point them out to you); all were made sinners and that verse very clearly says that the same many/all were made righteous (per your own admission).

However, I didn't even mention salvation.

angelmom

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