Hell is Payback

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Anguspure]

God will raise the bodies of the wicked, so that they can be punished for the sins done in those. Souls though, are already suffering torment -as the rich man in hell - was in a place of torment. Maybe the bodies will die, but the souls still live on, so the worm never dies. The bodies remain to hold the souls of the wicked for eternity.

The worm may not die, but people are not worms. If you see a dead body full of worms, the worms do not make the body alive. Rather the body is dead and it is the worms that are alive.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Anguspure]

Yet the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever in Revelation 14:11 and in Revelation 20:10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So, we know that the interpretations of it being a temporal age are incorrect. Forever is forever

The smoke of thier torment rises forever, but this does not imply that they have eternal life. Rather they were tormented at the point of thier death in the fire and the smoke of that fire that tormented them rises forever.

But on another tack, there is another passage that says the same thing about another event:

Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,

her dust into burning sulfur;

her land will become blazing pitch!

It will not be quenched night or day;

its smoke will rise forever. (Isaiah 34)

So Edom has faced its judgement, where is the smoke? Clearly there is an idiom in use here that should not be taken strictly literally.

In respect of Revelation 14, WR West puts it this way:

SMOKE IN HEAVEN Revelation 14:9-11: A symbolic picture of a judgment in the time of Emperor worship or pagan Rome, It is a picture of the destruction of these powers on this earth, not of their torment in Hell after the coming of Christ.

If this passage were literal, who would worship a beast with seven heads? How many have you ever seen with the mark of this seven headed beast on their forehead?

That some would make everything about the beast be a symbolic picture until it comes to the punishment of those with his mark on their forehead, but then change from symbolic to literal shows how desperate they are for anything that may support the doctrine of Hell.

According to this passage, the torment referred to is occurring on this earth for it is while they are worshiping (present tense) the beast and while there is "day and night." WHERE IS HELL?

If this passage were literal and is made to be literal picture of Hell, then Hell would be on this earth and those in it would not have died, but the smoke of the torment of those still living on the earth would go from the earth and fill Heaven with smoke.

This passage speaks of a limited number when they are living on the earth, only those who worshiped the beast, not all the lost who will not be living on the earth. Young's literal translation of the Bible translates this action in the present tense as "bowing" (ie. worshiping). These people have no rest while they are still worshiping the beast, while on earth.

 

[Anguspure]

Jesus Christ did not say that the worm will eat body parts- as to when one eye or one foot is cast into the furnace of fire. He warned as to when the whole body goes in, then one cannot enter into life. This means that it is the soul of a person that is linked to the worm that will not die. In Isaiah 66:23-24 - at the time of the new earth has been created, the just will go out and look upon the wicked for a reason/for -their worm dieth not.

So the "dead" have eternal life? Be it eternal life on the naughty chair.

Again fromWR West:
Christ used the "worm that dies not" only on one occasion [Mark 9:44-48; Repeated three times in verses 44, 46 and 48 in the King James Version but only in verse 48 in the American Standard Version].

He used both the maggots and the fire of Gehenna as a symbol of total destruction, not to show that God will forever torment most of mankind. If this is not figurative language, will there be immortal maggots in Hell? Can earthly maggots eat an immortal soul in "Hell?" Even most who believes in "Hell" make the maggots figurative, not real maggots in Hell, but make the "fire" be literal fire.
If Gehenna's "unquenchable fire" and "their worm dies not" are a description of the endless punishment of the wicked in "Hell," the silence of the New Testament writers would be unexplainable.

(1) Acts, a history of the preaching and church for about thirty years does not mention Gehenna, unquenchable fire, or immortal maggots.
(2) In none of Paul's fourteen letters, he never mentioned any of them.
(3) Peter, John, James, and Jude are also as silent as Paul.
(4) Neither can they be found in the Book of Revelation.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Anguspure]

Edom's land has yet to become burning pitch. This place is where God will have indignation against the people there -for ever.
In the OT, the indignation lasts as long as God is letting the trouble against the place/person/people last.
Look at verse 4 in Isaiah 34 as to the events at the time of when Edom becomes burning pitch.

all the host of heaven shall be dissolved
the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll

now- go to the 6th seal -where heaven departs as a scoll.

Or the language is figurative in order to describe a complete destruction of a nation.

"The same figurative language of the sun, moon and stars being darken or falling from
heaven is also used of the fall of Judea [a national judgment] in Jeremiah 4:1-28.
. Of the fall of Israel [Amos 8:6-9; 8:18-20].
. Of the fall of Israel [Zephaniah 1:14-18].
. Of the fall of the Nations [Joel 3:16-16].
. Of the fall of Egypt [Ezekiel 30:3-4; 32:7-8; Isaiah 19:1].
. Of the fall of Babylon [Isaiah 13:10-20].
. Of the fall of Edom [Isaiah 34:4-6].
. Of the city of Arier in Israel [Isaiah 29:5-6].
. Of the fall of "My people" [Isaiah 51:5-6].
. Also see Joel 2:1-31; 30:31; Haggai 2:6-7; Amos 8:9; Jeremiah 15:9 46:7; 49:23-24;
Isaiah 17:12-13; 19:1; 47:20; 64:3; Daniel 7:2-17; Exodus 19:16; 13:21-22; 14:19-31; Psalm 18:13;104:3; Ezekil 34:4; Nahum 1:3. This was familiar language to those Jesus was speaking to and they would have understood Him to be speaking of the fall of a nation, not the end of the world.

It is similar to that in Deuteronomy 23:22-28 and both are a judgment on Israel.

. Compare Matthew 24:29-30 to the fall of Egypt. "And when I extinguish you, I will
cover the heavens, and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the
moon shall not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you
and will set darkness on your land, declares the Lord God. I will also trouble the hearts
of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations" [Ezekiel 32:7-9]. As
far as these nations were concerned the lights went out."

 

[ClementofA]

Yet the smoke of their torment rises up forever and ever in Revelation 14:11 and in Revelation 20:10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So, we know that the interpretations of it being a temporal age are incorrect. Forever is forever

The Greek adjective aionios appears in Matt.25:46. It is the related noun aion that occurs in those two passages.

Some literal translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

See also posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

re 12 points re ages of ages ending

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

 

[ClementofA]

I'm working through the posts under here. Up to 129 so far. What do you think Jude meant as to wicked angels that are in everlasting chains? The word for everlasting is only used one other time as to the power and Godhead. The devil shall be tormented - for ever and ever. It even says - day and night. How can you think even wicked angels/demons have a chance to gain mercy?

Jude 1:6

“And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

==============
Romans 1:20

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

Jude says they are kept in everlasting chains to the day of judgement, not forever.

How can i not think they will eventually be saved, when i read Revelation 5:13 & Col.1:16-20?

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
Statement of Faith -- Please Read

 

[ClementofA]

The NT shows certain types of people that -shall not see -not enter - into the kingdom.

Matthew 18:3

“And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted,
and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

Other NT verses are similar:

And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Yup. Not until they repent & cease being unrighteous, but righteous "in Christ":

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."


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1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

as in Adam -all die
so in Christ - shall all be made alive\from the first type of death - not the second one -lake of fire
Adam will not die the second type of death - neither will anyone else that dies in Christ.
So if you try to use Adam as to why all from the lake of fire/dead wicked people/will be made alive-it won't work.


as in Adam -all die\get made alive in Christ - at His coming
then what is for later? He'll still have enemies - and they are put under His feet.
put under - is not resurrected to life and enter the kingdom of God

AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive. (1 Cor.15:22)

"in Christ" indicates salvation:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! (2 Cor.5:17)

1 Cor. 15:22 says "in Christ", not by Christ.

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism:
>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

John 3:36

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Re those who are not be seeing life, Jn.3:36 applies this to those not believing/obeying in the Son. All Christians were at one time unbelievers & not seeing life. The verse puts no time limits on when one can become a believer & see life.

Jn.3:36 also says of those who do not believe, that the wrath of God remains on them. There is salvation from that:

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

The contrast in Jn.3:36 is between seeing life & God's wrath, not between seeing life and endless death. Scripture never speaks of endless death. Instead, it says death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:22, 26, 28).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Der Alte]

And what did Paul say?

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.​

Yup. Not until they repent & cease being unrighteous, but righteous "in Christ":

Where does Paul ever qualify his warnings about who cannot enter the kingdom of God by saying "not until they repent & cease being unrighteous?" I can't seem to find that qualification anywhere in Paul's writings. Do you suppose that Paul forgot to put that in and that is why unis today have to interject that into every one of Paul's warnings?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive..

.All men are "in Adam" since all men are literal, physical descendants of Adam but all men are not "in Christ"

2 Corinthians 5:17
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Why does Paul say "if any man be in Christ" since according to unis there is no "if" every man is in Christ and will be saved no matter what. If any man not be in Christ he is not a new creature old things are not passed away,

Ephesians 2:13
(13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.​

Only those "in Christ" are made nigh.

Romans 8:1
(1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

There is therefore now still condemnation to them which are not in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the spirit, but after the flesh.

Gal 3:27-28
(27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
(28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.​

As many of you as have not been baptized into Christ have not put on Christ you are not all one in Christ Jesus.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

One continuous narrative. Not an out-of-context verse here and there. Verse 4, "no more death," Vs. 5, "I make all things new," vs. 6, "It is done." vs. 8 six groups of people still being thrown into the lake of fire.

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

The usual out-of-context uni proof. Has all mankind received the anointing in this verse?

1 John 2:22-26
(22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
(23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
(24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
(25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
(26) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
(27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.​

Those who deny Christ and have not received the anointing are not taught and do not abide in Him.

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."...

Who is this "he" who supposedly said all this and why should we listen to anything "he" said?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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