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Universal Reconciliation is still unscriptural.

ClementofA

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Oh but yes it does. You would know this if you had actually read my post. I even highlighted the pertinent phrases.


Yes it does, no it doesn't, yes it does, no it doesn't.

If you had actually provided an argument using your own words, instead of irrelevant cut & paste quotes, then i would refute it. That's explains why you don't.

Instead just more bluster.​
 
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Der Alte

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Yes it does, no it doesn't, yes it does, no it doesn't.
If you had actually provided an argument using your own words, instead of irrelevant cut & paste quotes, then i would refute it. That's explains why you don't.
I have always provided an argument and supported my arguments with credible, verifiable, historical evidence. In the post you are blowing off as "irrelevant cut & paste quotes" the only thing quoted was eight (8) citations from Origen and two citations from the UR supreme authority tents-я-us which evidently completely destroy the UR arguments in this forum.
Instead just more bluster.
The only "bluster" in my post was two citations from the UR ultimate authority tents-я-us which quite evidently is only window dressing. The two tents-я-us articles explain hyperbole in the Bible. It must be bluster because all the UR arguments I have encountered only recognize hyperbole when it appears to support UR doctrines and reject hyperbole when it contradicts UR teachings.
 
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ClementofA

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I have always provided an argument [snip]

Still no argument in your own words.

Just cut & paste quotes & boasting about refuting blah blah, etc & more blah.

Origen the universalist spoke of "after aionios life", an end of all aions, an end of "ages of the ages", etc. He certainly understood from ancient usage that olam, aion and aionios are used of finite periods of time, durations that have a beginning and an end.
 
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Der Alte

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Still no argument in your own words.
Just cut & paste quotes & boasting about refuting blah blah, etc & more blah.
I will consider this an admission of defeat. I have posted irrefutable evidence from scripture and the UR poster boy Origen which shows, beyond question, that both Paul and Origen understood that αἰώνιος/aionios means eternal. And since posting that irrefutable evidence all I see is false accusations.
 
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ClementofA

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I will consider this an admission of defeat. I have posted irrefutable evidence from scripture and the UR poster boy Origen which shows, beyond question, that both Paul and Origen understood that αἰώνιος/aionios means eternal. And since posting that irrefutable evidence all I see is false accusations.

You have already been given, a number of times, evidence supporting this:

Origen the universalist spoke of "after aionios life", an end of all aions, an end of "ages of the ages", etc. He certainly understood from ancient usage that olam, aion and aionios are used of finite periods of time, durations that have a beginning and an end.

Also you haven't proven anything re Origen's use of aionios in any context.
 
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Der Alte

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Still no argument in your own words.
Origen the universalist spoke of "after aionios life", an end of all aions, an end of "ages of the ages", etc. He certainly understood from ancient usage that olam, aion and aionios are used of finite periods of time, durations that have a beginning and an end
.
I quote directly from the writings of Origen the UR poster boy, and I properly identify which specific work I quoted from. I quote exactly what he said. The responses I see are bits and pieces of what Origen supposedly said and believed, more than likely copy/pasted from tents-я-us. You actually provided an argument of irrelevant cut & paste quotes, which I have refuted. Thirteen (13) times in the quotes I posted Origen quotes from or refers to 2 Corinthians 4;17-18 and 2 Corinthians 5:1.
2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
(18) So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if the earthly tent we live[/color] in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] house in heaven, not built by human hands.
In this passage, which IMHO, is incorrectly versified. 2 Cor 5:1 obviously belongs in chap. 4 as vs. 19. In vs. 4:18 Paul contrasts αἰώνιος/aionios with temporal i.e. temporary. The opposite of "temporal/temporary" is not "ages,""a long time" or any of the other terms URs use to try to redefine aionios. In vs. 5:1 Paul contrasts our earthly house which can be destroyed with an αἰώνιος/aionios house in heaven. The opposite of can be "destroyed" is not "ages,""a long time" or any of the other terms URs use to try to redefine aionios. But wait there is more.
Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life:
1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰώνιος/aionios] immortal, [ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Romans 1:23
(23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible [ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] God into an image made like to corruptible [φθαρσία/phtharsia] man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
In Rom 2:7 and 1 Tim 1:17 Paul pairs "immortality," ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia with "eternal" αἰώνιος/aionios. αἰώνιος/aionios cannot mean "ages,""a long time" etc. and be paired with "uncorruptible" and "immortality." God cannot be "immortal"/"uncorruptible" and only ages long at the same time.

 
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Der Alte

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You have already been given, a number of times, evidence supporting this:
Second hand quotes from tents-я-us are not evidence of anything but the bias of the people who maintain the site.
Origen the universalist spoke of "after aionios life", an end of all aions, an end of "ages of the ages", etc. He certainly understood from ancient usage that olam, aion and aionios are used of finite periods of time, durations that have a beginning and an end.
Irrelevant. See these two quotes from Tents–r-us.

• Tents–r-us - Hyperbole
The Bible is full of exaggerations … which are NOT to be taken literally. Careful attention, comparing scripture with scripture, knowing the Bible and its author thoroughly, making certain not to necessary apply things to ourselves which weren’t meant for us individually and some basics about the original languages are needed to prevent us from misinterpreting various scripture verses like this one. In this case, obviously, if something is against the will of God or if one asks with the wrong motive, no matter how much one believes for something, it won’t happen. (See James 4:2,3; John 5:19; John 15:5; 2 Cor.13:8, etc.) However, someone under a hyper-faith teaching ministry like the Word/faith movement, for example, may take this verse literally. Misinterpreting and misapplying this verse could cause one to do some serious damage to themselves and others due to demanding from God what He never really said He would do because they didn’t bother to find out or were never taught in their church that the Bible is full of hyperbole which shouldn't be taken literally!
Bible Matters--Hyperbole
• Tents–r-us Hyperbole - (exaggeration for effect) in the Bible and its Problems
This Bible Matters edition just briefly touches on just one of those figures of speech (hyperbole) and the hurdles we have to jump over in order to really understand what the writers of the Scriptures were really trying to convey.
Of the over 200 different types of figures of speech employed by the writers of the Bible, hyperbole is actually one of the more easy forms to figure out in the Bible although many of them are not recognized.
To read and understand the Bible as it was actually written, that is, filled with hundreds of different forms of figures of speech which should NOT be taken literally, requires some serious study – study which most Christians (including pastors) are not willing to do. Jesus said that Satan was a liar and the father of all lies. Many Christians, who have been taught to read the Bible literally, categorize some forms of figures of speech as lies. Stretching the truth is considered a lie in many Christian circles. Some hyperbole actually enters into the realm of what we, in the West, would call a lie. The Semitic languages (Hebrew being one of them) are exaggerative to an extreme. The Bible is FILLED with these exaggerative expressions. Because we are taught to take the text literally and because most Bible translations have used a literal nearly word-for-word approach in translating, we are left with thousands of passages of Scripture to which we have little to no accurate understanding – and the understandings we have been taught by our teachers are often false.
Bible Matters--<span class="style1">Hyperbole (exaggeration for effect) in the Bible and its Problems</span>
Also you haven't proven anything re Origen's use of aionios in any context.
I don't have to, I have posted the only evidence where Origen defines what he means by aionios 13 times. But If you would read my Origen post you would see that I did.
 
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ClementofA

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I quote directly from the writings of Origen the UR poster boy,

Quote Origen all you like. I'll quote Scripture supporting universalism:

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
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Der Alte

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They weren't second hand quotes.
AFIK you have never quoted anything directly from any of Origen's writing, they were all bits and pieces from tents-я-us. Hint: do what I do, at least quote complete sentences and give the name of the work, book, chapter, section etc. Saying "Origen spoke of 'after aionios life,''an end of all aions,''an end of ages of the ages", etc." doesn't mean anything.
 
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Der Alte

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Quote Origen all you like. I'll quote Scripture supporting universalism:
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Which has nothing to do with all mankind's eternal fate and you know it.
I not only quoted Origen who quoted Paul but I also quoted Paul in 1 Cor. Rom. 1 Tim.

2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
(18) So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if the earthly tent we live[/color] in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] house in heaven, not built by human hands.
In this passage, which IMHO, is incorrectly versified. 2 Cor 5:1 obviously belongs in chap. 4 as vs. 19. In vs. 4:18 Paul contrasts αἰώνιος/aionios with temporal i.e. temporary. The opposite of "temporal/temporary" is not "ages,""a long time" or any of the other terms URs use to try to redefine aionios. In vs. 5:1 Paul contrasts our earthly house which can be destroyed with an αἰώνιος/aionios house in heaven. The opposite of can be "destroyed" is not "ages,""a long time" or any of the other terms URs use to try to redefine aionios. But wait there is more.
Romans 2:7
(7) To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life:

1 Timothy 1:17
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰώνιος/aionios] immortal, [ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. [εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων/eis tous aionas ton aionon] Amen.

Romans 1:23
(23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible [ἀφθαρσία/aphtharsia] God into an image made like to corruptible [φθαρσία/phtharsia] man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
In Rom 2:7 and 1 Tim 1:17 Paul pairs "immortality," ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia with "eternal" αἰώνιος/aionios. αἰώνιος/aionios cannot mean "ages,""a long time" etc. and be paired with "uncorruptible" and "immortality." God cannot be "immortal"/"uncorruptible" and only ages long at the same time..
 
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ClementofA

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AFIK you have never quoted anything directly from any of Origen's writing, [snip]

Been there, done that. Search the forum. I'll quote Scripture which BTW is in the title of this thread, not church fathers, Jews, Pharisees.

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming
 
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ClementofA

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Which has nothing to do with all mankind's eternal fate and you know it.

When did God make you a false mind reader. I think the OT refers to people like that.

10b But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

That says "every man", not "every saint", not "every believer", not "every church member", not "every Christian", not "everyone of us", and not "every labourer", etc.

Verses 16-17 of the context immediately following v.15 speaks of those who are not saved in 17a:

(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Compare:

1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And therefore, in context, 3:15 is also referring to those who are not saved, but become saved "as by fire".

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus the most immediate prior context reference and the more immediate following context both support the view that v.15 refers to the unsaved being saved.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Der Alte

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Been there, done that. Search the forum. I'll quote Scripture which BTW is in the title of this thread, not church fathers, Jews, Pharisees.
28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blasphemin
g
So by you saying this am I to understand that you will not be spamming the forum with any more irrelevant copy/pastes from tents-я-us? Virtually everything you quote is out-of-context as this unidentified verse is. What did Jesus say about this?
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 
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ClementofA

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Virtually everything you quote is out-of-context as this unidentified verse is. What did Jesus say about this?
Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Likewise:

LK.12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Lk12:10 says it will not be forgiven/pardoned, just like Isa.22:14 below, though Isa.22 puts a limit to it, i.e. till death.

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Lk 12:10, OTOH, unlike Isa.22:14, does not state the length of time the person will not pardoned/forgiven/let off, whether it is till death, forever, or for this age & the next, etc. We have to look to other Scriptures to determine that, such as the parallel passages (Mk.3:28-29 and Matthew 12:31-32) which limit the penalty for this sin to two ages, "this" age & the coming age:

28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" 30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (Mark 3, CLV)

31 Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned."
32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending. (Mt.12:31-32, CLV)

Since there are Scriptures speaking of multiple future ages to come (Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15, etc), there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned after the coming age.

Also, in light of the following words we may believe that the sin against the Holy Spirit will surely be pardoned:

Mark 3:28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming,

If such a horrific thing as eternal punishment were the idea in Mt.12:31-32 & MK.3:28-29, would Christ have used the ambiguous words aion & aionios? No. He would have used words such as eternal (aidios, Rom.1:20; Jude 6), endless (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4), no end (Lk.1:33), unlimited (apeiron, by Philo). Since He never used such words, He did not teach endless annihilation or torments.

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness.
33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…


Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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ClementofA

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And what did Paul say?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
(20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
(21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Yup. Not until they repent & cease being unrighteous, but righteous "in Christ":

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."


------------------

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
 
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Der Alte

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Yup. Not until they repent & cease being unrighteous, but righteous "in Christ":
That verse must be missing from my Bible where did Jesus say "Shall not be forgiven until they repent? Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting pieces of verses cramming them together with other pieces of verses.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...
All men are literal descendants of Adam so by nature we are "in Adam" but all men are not in Christ. Why did you omit this vs.?

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Why does this make a distinction "they that are Christ's?" If there are some that "are Christ's" then there must be some who "are not Christ's." This out-of-context proof text says nothing about the second group.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Just because it is "for all mankind" that does not mean "all mankind" will accept it.

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
"The many" not "the all!" I get lots of offers "just for me" but I don't accept them.

tentmakers.org
Scholar's corner
The usual link to tents-я-us but when I quote from them you ignore it. Why is that?
 
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ClementofA

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That verse must be missing from my Bible where did Jesus say "Shall not be forgiven until they repent?


The passages you quoted were from Paul's epistles. They say the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. That means while they are unrighteous. In 1 Cor.6:11 he says some of the Corinthians were the unrighteous that he described in verse 9-10. But through repentance & faith in Christ they were changed from unrighteousness & able to enter the Kingdom of God. So there is nothing in the passages you cited that forbids the unrighteous from entering the kingdom of God the same way that the Corinthians did. No time restriction is put on repentance in those verses. So those verses provide no evidence against universalism. They fail in that regard. Try some other verses & watch them fail also.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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The passages you quoted were from Paul's epistles. They say the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Right there is where you should have stopped. Paul did not say anything like "until they get righteous." In order to make UR work you have to take pieces of verses all over the Bible and patch them together to make it say what you want.
That means while they are unrighteous. In 1 Cor.6:11 he says some of the Corinthians were the unrighteous that he described in verse 9-10. But through repentance & faith in Christ they were changed from unrighteousness & able to enter the Kingdom of God.
In 1 Cor 6:11 was Paul preaching to the dead in graves or were they still alive? He was talking to living people who had been unrighteous and while they were still alive they became righteous. Now please explain to me how you can make that verse equal UR?

So there is nothing in the passages you cited that forbids the unrighteous from entering the kingdom of God the same way that the Corinthians did. No time restriction is put on repentance in those verses. So those verses provide no evidence against universalism. They fail in that regard. Try some other verses & watch them fail also.
Fail nothing same ol' twisting vss. out-of-context. There is no time restrictions? That is correct as long as they are living they can do exactly as the Corinthians did. But,
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Now tell me where Jesus said those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will be forgiven when they become righteous? I don't mean a piece of 2-3 verses by Paul or Isaiah.
Matthew 12:31-32
(31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
(32) And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 
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Rajni

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The responses I see are bits and pieces of what Origen supposedly said and believed, more than likely copy/pasted from tents-я-us.
Or not. See post 97.
 
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