Hell is not permanent.

EchoPneuma said:

[SIZE=-1]Yep. and all those who worshipped the Roman emperor a couple thousand years ago did face some real wrath of God when He rained His judgement down on the nation of Israel. Read Josepus sometime. It's harrowing.[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

And your point is?

[SIZE=-1]That's right. We believe that faith and repentance can happen AFTER a time of chastisement in fire. Can you show me the scripture that refutes this? If this isn't possible then why did Jesus go preach the GOOD NEWS to those who were dead?[/SIZE]

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You have made an assertion, "We believe that faith and repentance can happen AFTER a time of chastisement in fire." the burden of proof is on you to prove that from scripture. But Luke 16 clearly refutes this "belief." Abraham to the rich man being tormented in hades,
If Abraham did not actually, literally, say these words, Jesus is a liar.

If this was a parable, what was the point? According to one cut/paste, Lazarus represents gentiles and the rich man Israel. If so, what will gentiles have/receive that Jews will never have/receive?
Jesus did NOT preach to those who were dead. The verse you are alluding to says he preached to the souls in prison. Hell or the grave is never called prison in scripture and prison is never called hell or the grave.

Jesus' ministry, prophesied by Isaiah and, quoted by Jesus was to preach deliverance of the captives. He did that during his earthly ministry. And notice that is between preaching the good news to the poor and recovering of sight to the blind.
If Jesus preached to the dead, how many were saved according to 1 Peter 3:19,20?

Der Alter said:

This is a Christian forum and I am a Christian discussing Christian doctrine. That doctrine is based on all scripture see, 1 Tim 3:16, above. If you do not want to discuss scripture, what are you doing in a Christian forum? There are a multitude of forums, where people can discuss their opinions about a multitude of subjects.

Click to expand...

I like 2 Tim. 3:16 also. Well, actually verses 15, 16, and 17.

15. "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

The scriptures that Timothy had known from a child, and the ones which Paul says were given by inspiration of God, would have been the scriptures of the Old Testament; most likely "The law and the prophets".


So where in the Old Testament do we find the doctrine of eternal torment?

And since faith in Jesus Christ seems to have been set for the standard here, as to what it takes to escape eternal torment, what about all those people before Christ came?
Do you think all these people are now in eternal torment?

Soul Searcher said:

[SIZE=-1]Two comments, One question:

One do not assume that because I have not addressed each or even any of these passages in this thread that I have ignored them. I have studied them in detail.

Two the doctorine of ET has not been proven in any way other than to show that the doctorine exists and that some even many believe in it. It has not been proven as being true and it has been shown to contradict other scripture.

Question: In your view what happens to the merciful non-believer when s/he dies?[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

The Biblical doctrine of eternal torment has been proved beyond any doubt by the very words of Jesus, in 28 passages. Those 28 passages do NOT contradict anything Jesus said, in any other passage.

The one proof text, by Jesus, I have been shown, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me.," clearly does not mean every person will believe in Jesus. Because with only one exception, none of the crowd at the crucifixion, who actually saw Jesus lifted up, "came" to Jesus. The Romans and Jews continued to persecute and murder Christians throughout the N.T. and later.

The doctrine does not contradict any scripture when those out-of-context proof texts, by the apostles, are considered in their immediate context and the context of the entire Bible.

For example, all the proof texts by Paul are contradicted by his own writings. 1 Cor 3:17, 1 Cor 6:9,10, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:21.

The Biblical doctrine of eternal punishment was believed by the Jews, before the Christian era, it is clearly taught, in scripture, most specifically by Jesus, and it was taught by the early church, for the first 300 years, until many heresies arose and invaded the church.

Der Alter said:

Jesus did NOT preach to those who were dead. The verse you are alluding to says he preached to the souls in prison. Hell or the grave is never called prison in scripture and prison is never called hell or the grave.

Click to expand...

1 Peter 4:5

King James Version (KJV)
5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5who shall give an account to Him who is ready to judge living and dead, 6for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit.

American Standard Version (ASV)
5 who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

English Standard Version (ESV)
5but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)
5 And they shall give reason to him, that is ready to deem the quick and the dead. 6 For why for this thing it is preached also to dead men, that they be deemed by men in flesh, and that they live by God in spirit.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. (DRA)
5Who shall render account to him, who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

________________________

I showed the verse in SEVEN different versions just so there was no mistaking what is said. All of them say the same thing.

The gospel WAS preached to the dead....and it was Jesus who did it. Who else could have preached to the dead but Him? There could be only ONE reason for the GOSPEL to be preached to the dead. They must have had a chance to accept it.

Now what were you saying about "Jesus DID NOT preach to those who are dead"? THis verse says NOTHING about "souls in prison". You are sorely mistaken.

Havahope said:

[SIZE=-1]I like 2 Tim. 3:16 also. Well, actually verses 15, 16, and 17.

15. "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

The scriptures that Timothy had known from a child, and the ones which Paul says were given by inspiration of God, would have been the scriptures of the Old Testament; most likely "The law and the prophets".

So where in the Old Testament do we find the doctrine of eternal torment?

And since faith in Jesus Christ seems to have been set for the standard here, as to what it takes to escape eternal torment, what about all those people before Christ came?
Do you think all these people are now in eternal torment?[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Do you see a pattern here? I have posted many, many scriptures, in addition to the 28 passages, spoken by Jesus and they have been totally ignored, except for one irrelevant cut/paste. And all the universalists demand that I address every scripture they post, "How about this verse, bet you can't answer it.?" "How about this verse, bet you can't answer it.?"

The people of the O.T. where are they now? I already answered that above, from the O.T. and the N.T., here are some more verses.
As for the doctrine of eternal torment in the O.T. I have already posted documentation several times. Also, read the 28 passages spoken by Jesus, he alludes to the O.T. several times.

Der Alter said:

The doctrine does not contradict any scripture when those out-of-context proof texts, by the apostles, are considered in their immediate context and the context of the entire Bible.
For example, all the proof texts by Paul are contradicted by his own writings. 1 Cor 3:17, 1 Cor 6:9,10, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:21.

Click to expand...

1Cor. 3: 17. "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."


This passage says that God will destroy that man. It does not say that He will torment him throughout eternity.


1Cor. 6: 9. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Where does these scriptures say that the unrighteous will be in eternal torment?

Ephe. 5: 5. "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Again, this scripture does not say that these people will be in eternal torment.

Galations 5: 21. "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

None of these scriptures that you have presented here say that anyone is going to be tortured throughout eternity.


Rev. 22: 14. "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. [the New Jerusalem - heaven?]
15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."


So I guess all dogs don't go to heaven after all. huh?

Der Alter said:

The Biblical doctrine of eternal punishment was believed by the Jews, before the Christian era,

Click to expand...

However, there was just one little problem with what the Jews believed in that regard. They had no "thus saith the Lord" to substantiate thier beliefs.


Jesus taught an "age lasting" punishment, chastisement or maybe correction. Ages have beginnings, and ages have endings. Eternity doesn't.

Der Alter said:

Do you see a pattern here? I have posted many, many scriptures, in addition to the 28 passages, spoken by Jesus and they have been totally ignored, except for one irrelevant cut/paste. And all the universalists demand that I address every scripture they post, "How about this verse, bet you can't answer it.?" "How about this verse, bet you can't answer it.?"



The people of the O.T. where are they now? I already answered that above, from the O.T. and the N.T., here are some more verses.

Luke 16:31 And [Jesus said] he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

​

As for the doctrine of eternal torment in the O.T. I have already posted documentation several times. Also, read the 28 passages spoken by Jesus, he alludes to the O.T. several times.

Click to expand...

I need scripture. Not the Jews'opinions, or your opinion.
One more time:
Where is eternal torment taught in the Old Testament?

Havahope said:

I need scripture. Not the Jews'opinions, or your opinion.
One more time:
Where is eternal torment taught in the Old Testament?

Click to expand...

The book of Isaiah has many references to God's vengeance.
Chapters 24, 28, 34
Isaiah 34:10 "It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again."

Tim, you didn't answer my last post to you...where I showed all your "loving" comments to others. Care to address it?

Der Alter said:

Rom 11:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Psalm 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
​

The Biblical doctrine of eternal torment has been proved beyond any doubt by the very words of Jesus, in 28 passages. Those 28 passages do NOT contradict anything Jesus said, in any other passage.

The one proof text, by Jesus, I have been shown, "If I be lifted up I will draw all men to me.," clearly does not mean every person will believe in Jesus. Because with only one exception, none of the crowd at the crucifixion, who actually saw Jesus lifted up, "came" to Jesus. The Romans and Jews continued to persecute and murder Christians throughout the N.T. and later.

The doctrine does not contradict any scripture when those out-of-context proof texts, by the apostles, are considered in their immediate context and the context of the entire Bible.

For example, all the proof texts by Paul are contradicted by his own writings. 1 Cor 3:17, 1 Cor 6:9,10, Eph 5:5, Gal 5:21.

The Biblical doctrine of eternal punishment was believed by the Jews, before the Christian era, it is clearly taught, in scripture, most specifically by Jesus, and it was taught by the early church, for the first 300 years, until many heresies arose and invaded the church.

Click to expand...

Note: I do not dispute that the doctorine exists. The fact that a doctorine exists does not make it true.

But You did not answer the question so I will ask again.

What happens to the merciful non-believer when s/he dies?

EchoPneuma said:

1 Peter 4:5

King James Version (KJV)
5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5who shall give an account to Him who is ready to judge living and dead, 6for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit.

American Standard Version (ASV)
5 who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

English Standard Version (ESV)
5but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.

Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)
5 And they shall give reason to him, that is ready to deem the quick and the dead. 6 For why for this thing it is preached also to dead men, that they be deemed by men in flesh, and that they live by God in spirit.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition. (DRA)
5Who shall render account to him, who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.

________________________

I showed the verse in SEVEN different versions just so there was no mistaking what is said. All of them say the same thing.

The gospel WAS preached to the dead....and it was Jesus who did it. Who else could have preached to the dead but Him? There could be only ONE reason for the GOSPEL to be preached to the dead. They must have had a chance to accept it.

Now what were you saying about "Jesus DID NOT preach to those who are dead"? THis verse says NOTHING about "souls in prison". You are sorely mistaken.

Click to expand...

Those verses refer to the fact that those who were then already dead, had heard the gospel (good News) an therefore could be judged.
Hebrews 9:27,28
"And it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgement, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many..."

KCDAD said:

If so, I am not a universalist.
Good. One less label to worry about.
No one GOES to heaven. You either experience being in God's presence or you don't. You don't have to go anywhere, because God is already everywhere. The difference between you and me is I am experiencing God's presence now, I am in heaven. You think there is something better someplace else... where God is "more" there?

Click to expand...

at least the others try to support their beliefs with scripture, you just make it up as you go. I won't challenge your imagination.

Soul Searcher said:

[SIZE=-1]Note: I do not dispute that the doctorine exists. The fact that a doctorine exists does not make it true.

But You did not answer the question so I will ask again.

What happens to the merciful non-believer when s/he dies?[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Go back and read my post. I most certainly did answer your out-of-context, "Here is one question that totally, completely, absolutely destroys the doctrine of ET and no OC can answer it." I cited two parallel scripture one O.T. one N.T.

Now go back and start addressing all the scriptures and other sources I have cited. Just saying, "Did too, Did Not, Neener, neener, neener." answers nothing.

Soul Searcher said:

Could you define righteousness?

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Random House says righteousness is "the quality or state of being just or rightful"
It defines just as "guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness"
But I am sure those definitions fall short in describing our Righteous God; Adonai; Elohim.

Der Alter said:

Go back and read my post. I most certainly did answer your out-of-context, "Here is one question that totally, completely, absolutely destroys the doctrine of ET and no OC can answer it." I cited two parallel scripture one O.T. one N.T.

Now go back and start addressing all the scriptures and other sources I have cited. Just saying, "Did too, Did Not, Neener, neener, neener." answers nothing.

Click to expand...

I did not write any post such as you suggest. You must be thinking of someone else.

I simply asked a question about a merciful non-believer. You gave a lenghty post but did not address my question so I asked again. I am not making demands, nor am I stating anything out of context. I simply asked a question.

timlamb said:

Random House says righteousness is "the quality or state of being just or rightful"
It defines just as "guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness"
But I am sure those definitions fall short in describing our Righteous God; Adonai; Elohim.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, i was really wondering what it meant to you but that is ok.

In my own mind it means something like the act or state of doing right as in keeping the commandments in the spirit in which they were intended. In essence to obey/fullfill the law of love.

Noah Websters defines it as:
1. Purity of heart and rectitude of life; conformity of heart and life to the divine law. Righteousness, as used in Scripture and theology, in which it is chiefly used, is nearly equivalent to holiness, comprehending holy principles and affections of heart, and conformity of life to the divine law. It includes all we call justice, honesty and virtue, with holy affections; in short, it is true religion.
2. Applied to God, the perfection or holiness of his nature; exact rectitude; faithfulness.
3. The active and passive obedience of Christ, by which the law of God is fulfilled. Dan 9.
4. Justice; equity between man and man. Luke 1.
5. The cause of our justification.
The Lord our righteousness. Jer 23.

katallasso said:

Yes, repentance is needed from everyone who is to come into reconciliation with the Father. And that is exactly what the purifying fire of Hell will preform with them that go there, for the rest of us, obviously, we have already repented.

Click to expand...

The only way you could believe that a soul, in the fire of hell, seperated from God, could repent and be purified, is through the wishful thinking of a compassionate heart.
I am so glad you believe in the need for salvation by faith, and repentance; I appologise for lashing out at you.

Havahope said:

[SIZE=-1]1 Cor. 3: 17. "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

This passage says that God will destroy that man. It does not say that He will torment him throughout eternity.[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Let us remember this is part of a passage that universalists misquote trying to prove that every person ever born their work will be tried by fire but they will be saved.

And you believe that scripture, including, Paul teaches UR. Where is UR in 1 Cor 3:17?

[SIZE=-1]1Cor. 6: 9. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Where does these scriptures say that the unrighteous will be in eternal torment?[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Where does this scripture teach UR?

[SIZE=-1]Ephe. 5: 5. "For this ye know, that no whoremonger,
nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

Again, this scripture does not say that these people will be in eternal torment.[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Paul does NOT teach UR!

[SIZE=-1]Galations 5: 21. "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

None of these scriptures that you have presented here say that anyone is going to be tortured throughout eternity. [/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Paul does NOT teach UR!

[SIZE=-1]Rev. 22: 15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

So I guess all dogs don't go to heaven after all. huh.[/SIZE]

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"Dog" was a Jewish derogatory term for a pagan priest who practiced temple ritual sodomy.

[SIZE=-1]However, there was just one little problem with what the Jews believed in that regard. They had no "thus saith the Lord" to substantiate thier beliefs.[/SIZE]

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The only little problem is you did not read my previous posts from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Also the cut/paste someone posted from Lightfoot also documents that the Jews believed in a hell of eternal punishment.

Jesus reaffirmed the Jewish belief in what he taught. See the 28 verses I posted.

Here are most, if not all, the scriptures cited in the two articles I posted and a link to my post with the articles.

Gen. xix. 24; Ex. ix. 23, xi. 4, xii. 12; Josh. x. 11; Amos (iii. 2, v. 20).; Isa. ii. 12, x. 3, xxii. 5; Micah i. 3; Isa. xiv. 25, xxiv.-xxv.; Zeph. i-iii., iii. 8-12; Mal. iii. 2 et seq., 9; Isa. xxxiii. 14 et seq.; Isa. xxiv. 21-xxv. 8, xxvi. 19; Ezek. Xxxvii; Dan. xii. 2; II Esd. vii. 26-36, Ps. ix. 18, Ps. l. 4; Syriac Apoc. Baruch, lxxxv. 9-12; Book of Jubilees, xxx. 22, xxxvi. 10; Abot ii.; Zech. xiii. 9; Jonah ii. 3; Ps. lxxxviii. 12, xvi. 10, xl. 3, cvii. 14; Ezek. xxvi. 20; Isa. xxx. 33,

Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14; Enoch, xvii. 4-6; Enoch, lxvii. 6; Isa. lxvi. 16, 24; Job x. 22; Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Enoch, xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12; Isa. xiv. 9-10, x. 6, xci. 9, et al; Judith xvi. 17; Isa. xxxiii. 11; Enoch, xxvii,

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22892112&postcount=384

[size=-1]Jesus taught an "age lasting" punishment, chastisement or maybe correction. Ages have beginnings, and ages have endings. Eternity doesn't.[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

Garbage I have proved repeatedly from indisputable, historical Greek sources that "aion" always had the inherent meaning of eternal, forever, unending, everlasting. But universalists worship at the altar of tentbusters and hellmakers, and cannot, will not, see anything but the false, poison, biased, misinformation at those sites. No lexical or historical support for hellmakers "definition" but if it is posted there then it must be true, thus saith all the universalists.

The Biblical doctrine of eternal punishment is not based on one occurence of the Greek word "aion," in one verse, but the totality of what Jesus taught. Link to all 28 verses.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22940336&postcount=494

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22894158#post22894158

EchoPneuma said:

[SIZE=-1]1 Peter 4:5

King James Version (KJV)
5Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. ...

I showed the verse in SEVEN different versions just so there was no mistaking what is said. All of them say the same thing.

The gospel WAS preached to the dead....and it was Jesus who did it. Who else could have preached to the dead but Him? There could be only ONE reason for the GOSPEL to be preached to the dead. They must have had a chance to accept it.

Now what were you saying about "Jesus DID NOT preach to those who are dead"? THis verse says NOTHING about "souls in prison". You are sorely mistaken.[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

No, not sorely mistaken just had the wrong out-of-context proof text.

"The gospel WAS preached to the dead....and it was Jesus who did it." Is that the only interpretation? Then please explain to me how dead people in the grave bury other dead people?

Notice, also before men are saved they were dead in trespasses, etc.

Please show where Jesus ever taught preaching to and salvation after death? Pay particular attention to Luke 16:19ff.

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22940336&postcount=494

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=22894158#post22894158

Soul Searcher said:

[SIZE=-1]Note: I do not dispute that the doctorine exists. The fact that a doctorine exists does not make it true.

But You did not answer the question so I will ask again.

What happens to the merciful non-believer when s/he dies?[/SIZE]

Click to expand...

It is not my problem that you will not accept or do not like the answer.