HELL IS NOT A SECRET TO BE KEPT

[Der Alte]

Not to your biased requirements, no.
If we provide history, you claim it's not credible, or verifiable.
If we provide grammar, you claim it's not credible, or verifiable.
If we provide lexical, you claim it's not credible, or verifiable.
Your biased library is your fortress where you fight to uphold Damnationism.
No interest in the truth. Just more of the party line.

Typical rubbish. Historical evidence is something written at or near the times in question by participants or direct eye witnesses. For example, evidence about Constantine. Two historians lived concurrent with Constantine Eusebius and Lactantius.
Some scholar writing in the 19th - 21st century, without such evidence, is not "Historical" evidence.
If you don't have access to a Hebrew or Greek grammar you cannot provide grammatical evidence. Strong's is not a lexicon, it is a concordance which only shows where words occur and it has been found to ahve about 15,00 errors and omissions.
Joseph Henry Thayer was a Unitarian so his lexicon reflects his bias.
If you don't have a Greek or Hebrew lexicon you cannot provide lexical evidence. There are dated but adequate lexicons available free online.

 

[Saint Steven]

Oh, I'm sure it came out right. Just like your false hell.

What is the purpose of hell in your opinion?

 

[Skidder]

So do you believe that those who reject the payment, who is Christ, are under God's wrath?

 

[Skidder]

What is the purpose of hell in your opinion?

Hell is the penalty of sin. Jesus took that penalty for everyone.

 

[Skidder]

I didn't start this you did. I said THESE scripture and you kept on and on like it was my mistake. Twisting this back on me is not the act of a "godly person". This is not my first rodeo, I know manipulation when I see it. Maybe you should read those scriptures and then look back on how this all started.

 

[Skidder]

James 1:19 ESV
Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;

Matthew 5:9 ESV
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."

James 4:6 ESV
But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

Colossians 3:12 ESV
Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,


In light of these verses, I can tell you with fair certainty that you definitely are not coming off as quick to hear, kind or humble. Regardless of how you intend it, you seem to come off as aggressive, stubborn, and with an inflated sense of importance in your own words. Perhaps in the Bible, religious figures such as Prophets, the Apostles, and Jesus Christ could righteously be aggressive in preaching the Gospel and rebuking others--and certainly, there are times when being as such is appropriate in these times. However, they had the direct voice of God guiding them; you, like the rest of us, are also just a helpless sinner. You preach the Gospel, but your theology was shaped by hundreds of men before you, wasn't it?

Galatians 6:1 ESV
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.


'Your opinion' is also a very common argument used by gentiles when they do not want to hear the truth, just so you're aware.

I didn't start this you did. I said THESE scriptures and you kept on and on like it was my mistake. Twisting this back on me is not the act of a "godly person". This is not my first rodeo, I know manipulation when I see it. Maybe you should read those scriptures and then look back on how this all started.

 

[Saint Steven]

So do you believe that those who reject the payment, who is Christ, are under God's wrath?

I asked you earlier about the billions who have never heard and you blew off my question as a liberal position. Which it is not.
Now you come with a question about another subset. I'll answer your question and you should answer mine. Unless you prefer to play with a stacked deck. (probably)

All of humankind is under the wrath of God at birth. Born in Adam's race.
We are not under wrath for rejecting Christ, we were ALREADY under wrath.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hell is the penalty of sin. Jesus took that penalty for everyone.

Wow. I thought you said you weren't a Universalist. I misjudged you.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Skidder said: ↑
Hell is the penalty of sin. Jesus took that penalty for everyone.

 

[Skidder]

I asked you earlier about the billions who have never heard and you blew off my question as a liberal position. Which it is not.
Now you come with a question about another subset. I'll answer your question and you should answer mine. Unless you prefer to play with a stacked deck. (probably)

All of humankind is under the wrath of God at birth. Born in Adam's race.
We are not under wrath for rejecting Christ, we were ALREADY under wrath.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

I didn't blow it off, did your read the whole thing...

(((When these choices happen for some, I don't know? But the bible clearly says...

Collosians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which WAS PREACHED to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.)))

And as far as your opinion on God's wrath...

I believe the best way to explain why those who reject Christ are still under God’s wrath is by explaining the two covenants. The letter (old) and the Spirit (new). Only those who are born of the Spirit are IN CHRIST and freed from the law (letter).

Romans 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in THE SPIRIT, not in THE LETTER; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the LAW, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of THE SPIRIT and not in the oldness of the LETTER.

2 Corinthians 3:6
who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the LETTER but of the SPIRIT; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

In these verses we clearly see that the two covenants are of the Law and the Spirit. So which one of these covenants is by grace?

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are NOT UNDER LAW but UNDER GRACE.

Matthew 26:28
For this is MY BLOOD of the NEW COVENANT, which is shed for many for the REMISSION OF SINS.

Ephesians 1:7
IN WHOM we have redemption THROUGH HIS BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the RICHES OF HIS GRACE;

Now let's take a look at why those who reject Christ are under god’s wrath and not under grace….

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH OF GOD abides on him.”

Romans 4:15
because THE LAW brings about WRATH; for where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION.

Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED when there is NO LAW.

There is only one way to die to the old (law) and be born of the Spirit (new) and that is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. To die to the law is to die to sin, and those who are free from the law are no longer under God’s wrath.

Romans 7:1-2
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the HUSBAND DIES, she is RELEASED FROM THE LAW of her husband.

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become DEAD TO THE LAW through the BODY OF CHRIST, that you may be MARRIED TO ANOTHER—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God

Romans 10:4
For CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES.

Romans 6:5-11
For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For HE WHO HAS DIED has been FREED FROM SIN. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be DEAD INDEED TO SIN, but ALIVE TO GOD IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.

Colossians 1:21-22
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 IN THE BODY OF HIS FLESH THROUGH DEATH, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

Summary:
A person is either under the law (letter) or under grace. There is no in-between. When a person believes in the Lord Jesus Christ they die to the law through the body of Christ and are married to another. They must first die to the old to be born of the Spirit. The Spirit is of the New Covenant and the letter is of the Old. The law (letter) brings wrath because NO ONE can fulfill its righteous requirements. But we have a blessed hope in all this hopelessness. We have the Lamb of God who is the end of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes. He was the only one who could fulfill these requirements, and those requirements were met when this righteous lamb of God was crucified on a lonely hill called Calvary. So those who reject Christ are under God’s wrath because they are still under the law, therefore still under the condemnation of sin. Their sins are still counted against them because they have rejected the end of the law.. Who is CHRIST JESUS… the PAYMENT for ALL SINS!!

He is the RESURRECTION and the LIFE because HE IS THE PAYMENT FOR OUR SINS... THE SACRIFICE! Remember ONLY IN CHRIST do we have redemption through His blood the forgiveness of sins. And if anyone is IN CHRIST, OLD THINGS have PASSED AWAY, ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW!! They have to be IN CHRIST to be REDEEMED. There is no “sin free zone” outside of Christ because HE IS THE ATONING SACRIFICE... HE IS THE PROPITIATION… HE IS REDEMPTION… HE IS OUR SANCTIFICATION… HE IS OUR RECONCILIATION… HE IS OUR JUSTIFICATION… HE IS OUR FORGIVENESS… HE IS OUR REDEEMER!! HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE!! Therefore HE IS OUR ALL IN ALL!!

 

[Saint Steven]

I didn't blow it off, did your read the whole thing...

(((When these choices happen for some, I don't know? But the bible clearly says...

Collosians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which WAS PREACHED to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.)))

Two problems with that response.
1) How is it that the same gospel the Colossians (note spelling) heard was preached to every creature under heaven? Like all the animals and bugs? Seems like a translation issue.
2) Why would that still apply today?

 

[Saint Steven]

And as far as your opinion on God's wrath...

Was that supposed to be a rebuttal? (the tirade that followed)

 

[RaymondG]

Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

2 Corinthians 10:12
We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise.

Im not saying that the consequences are real.....Im saying that , because the speaker has no power.....no evidence..... the only way to get people to follow them is to add consequences. Believe what I say, or face God's wrath.......

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

I didn't start this you did. I said THESE scriptures and you kept on and on like it was my mistake. Twisting this back on me is not the act of a "godly person". This is not my first rodeo, I know manipulation when I see it. Maybe you should read those scriptures and then look back on how this all started.

I do believe I said that I agreed with you on everything else, just not the child part. In my first post, #69, however, I never even addressed what you said apart from that because everything else I agreed with. I also acknowledged that I partially misread what you stated originally--and apologized for doing so--but then added that, in general, I thought my point still stood. Even more so after your defensive reaction. My point, originally, was that a child could not understand ANY scripture on their own. Furthermore, the phrases 'even a child could understand' and 'carnal intellect' is a very obvious passive-aggressive jab at those who do not see things the way you do. I wanted to warn you about using that argument because I want you to succeed in future debates, and not give people grounds to discredit you.

Even now, instead of humbling yourself and meeting me in the middle ground as this being a miscommunication, what are you doing? 'Twisting this back on me is not the act of a 'godly' person', and then you proceed to do the exact same thing by throwing it back at me. That is my problem with your posts. Your points in this thread have been pretty solid, but your attitude has not been. And even past that, calling this a 'rodeo' and accusing me of manipulation hardly makes your intentions seem righteous or pure. From this thread alone, one could get the impression that the only time you're kind is when someone is agreeing with you.

In case it hadn't occurred to you or anyone else, I'm going out of my way to point this out because I also suffer from not holding my tongue and becoming aggressive with people. If you sift through my posts, you'll see numerous examples, I'm sure, of me being a very overly-aggressive and self-righteous person when I clash with someone who would be considered a polar opposite to me. It's something I struggle with because I am aware of how I come off and I pray every day for the strength and foresight to stop that habit. Even in my post, #69, I did have to edit it quite a bit because I didn't want it to sound condescending--though it probably still did since a lot of my humor comes out as sarcasm, unfortunately. I apologize for that as well.

But just as God does not look upon the proud with approval, those who need to be saved will not accept help from nor will be willing to listen to such a person. I do not wish to see you or anyone else struggle with the same thing I do, and that is why I'm not 'tiptoing around tulips' with you about it. Even if I had been much worse, I would hope that you'd treat me with calm sternness without pride or unfit judgment, as we Christians are supposed to do. And if that fails, you would be the bigger person and leave it be.

 

[Saint Steven]

Im not saying that the consequences are real.....Im saying that , because the speaker has no power.....no evidence..... the only way to get people to follow them is to add consequences. Believe what I say, or face God's wrath.......

Right, I agree with that. Reminds me of this scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

 

[Skidder]

Was that supposed to be a rebuttal? (the tirade that followed)

Did you read why those who reject Christ are still under God's wrath?

OK, here it is again. What verse do you disagree with? Do you not understand what it means to die to the law through the body of Christ? When we die to the law we are no longer under God's wrath because we are IN CHRIST. And only IN CHRIST is there redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins... The law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression, and the only place where this exists is IN CHRIST.

Now let's take a look at why those who reject Christ are under god’s wrath and not under grace….

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH OF GOD abides on him.”

Romans 4:15
because THE LAW brings about WRATH; for where there is NO LAW there is NO TRANSGRESSION.

Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world: but SIN IS NOT IMPUTED when there is NO LAW.

There is only one way to die to the old (law) and be born of the Spirit (new) and that is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. To die to the law is to die to sin, and those who are free from the law are no longer under God’s wrath.

Romans 7:1-2
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the HUSBAND DIES, she is RELEASED FROM THE LAW of her husband.

Romans 7:4
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become DEAD TO THE LAW through the BODY OF CHRIST, that you may be MARRIED TO ANOTHER—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God

Romans 10:4
For CHRIST IS THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES.

 

[Saint Steven]

Did you read why those who reject Christ are still under God's wrath?

Still?
Obviously rejecting Christ has NOTHING to do with it if they are STILL under wrath.
It means they were ALREADY under wrath, as I said in the first place.

We don't have to reject Christ to come under wrath. We are BORN under wrath.
Through no fault of our own, I might add.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Skidder said: ↑
Did you read why those who reject Christ are still under God's wrath?

 

[Der Alte]

Two problems with that response.
1) How is it that the same gospel the Colossians (note spelling) heard was preached to every creature under heaven? Like all the animals and bugs? Seems like a translation issue.
2) Why would that still apply today?

That is known as hyperbole. When exaggeration is used for emphasis. Since in the first century the epistle to the Colossians could not possibly have been preached to to every creature under heaven. There are several instances in the NT where "all the world"/"the whole world" is used hyperbolically.

 

[Skidder]

I do believe I said that I agreed with you on everything else, just not the child part. In my first post, #69, however, I never even addressed what you said apart from that because everything else I agreed with. I also acknowledged that I partially misread what you stated originally--and apologized for doing so--but then added that, in general, I thought my point still stood. Even more so after your defensive reaction. My point, originally, was that a child could not understand ANY scripture on their own. Furthermore, the phrases 'even a child could understand' and 'carnal intellect' is a very obvious passive-aggressive jab at those who do not see things the way you do. I wanted to warn you about using that argument because I want you to succeed in future debates, and not give people grounds to discredit you.

Even now, instead of humbling yourself and meeting me in the middle ground as this being a miscommunication, what are you doing? 'Twisting this back on me is not the act of a 'godly' person', and then you proceed to do the exact same thing by throwing it back at me. That is my problem with your posts. Your points in this thread have been pretty solid, but your attitude has not been. And even past that, calling this a 'rodeo' and accusing me of manipulation hardly makes your intentions. From this thread alone, one could get the impression that the only time you're kind is when someone is agreeing with you.

In case it hadn't occurred to you or anyone else, I'm going out of my way to point this out because I also suffer from not holding my tongue and becoming aggressive with people. If you sift through my posts, you'll see numerous examples, I'm sure, of me being a very overly-aggressive and self-righteous person when I clash with someone who would be considered a polar opposite to me. It's something I struggle with because I am aware of how I come off and I pray every day for the strength and foresight to stop that habit. Even in my post, #69, I did have to edit it quite a bit because I didn't want it to sound condescending--though it probably still did since a lot of my humor comes out as sarcasm, unfortunately. I apologize for that as well.

But just as God does not look upon the proud with approval, those who need to be saved will not accept help from nor will be willing to listen to such a person. I do not wish to see you or anyone else struggle with the same thing I do, and that is why I'm not 'tiptoing around tulips' with you about it. Even if I had been much worse, I would hope that you'd treat me with calm sternness without pride or unfit judgment, as we Christians are supposed to do. And if that fails, you would be the bigger person and leave it be.

Yes, and I said your opinion was noted, and you wouldn't let it drop, just like now. Are you done rebuking me so I can continue exposing the false hell of ecumenism?

 

[Saint Steven]

That is known as hyperbole. When exaggeration is used for emphasis. Since in the first century the epistle to the Colossians could not possibly have been preached to to every creature under heaven.

Right. I agree with that.

 

[theoneandonlypencil]

Yes, and I said your opinion was noted, and you wouldn't let it drop, just like now. Are you done rebuking me so I can continue exposing the false hell of ecumenism?

No, your exact words were;

"Your version of a "Godly person" and "over-aggressive". Your opinion is noted."

It felt less like you were genuinely taking note of my opinion, and more that you were simply disregarding it as 'just my opinion' so I wouldn't bug you anymore. Again, whether or not this was how you intended it, this is how it came out--and how you come off to others is very important in debates. Your words are your own responsibility, not mine or anyone else's. Even then, I think that hardly excuses you for losing your temper with me afterward, accusing me of manipulation and trying to deflect any semblance of accountability by passing the blame onto me instead multiple times.

In any case, I won't reply to you after this. I personally don't find it pleasant to have civil debates with people who do not take responsibility for their own words and actions and instead treat others with passive-aggression and contempt. I pray that God will soften your heart in this area.

God Bless.