Hell is a correctional jail

[Tavita]

it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart, nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift is the agency of man's believing. [/quote}

Amen and Amen!!

 

[LJSGM]

You are not giving scripture; you are giving me your logic.

Acts 7

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him—

well, there's one for you. I'll see if I can find some more

btw: that wasn't mine, that one came from one of my favorite theologians

 

[Ben12]

Acts 7

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him—

well, there's one for you. I'll see if I can find some more

btw: that wasn't mine, that one came from one of my favorite theologians

Amen; religious people murdered him; reject him; are the stiff neck people; but we are talking about salvation being a choice. Jesus said repent; that means change your mind. That is the last thing a self righteous Jew or Christian will ever do. That is why God has to drag us.

 

[LJSGM]

Amen; religious people murdered him; reject him; are the stiff neck people; but we are talking about salvation being a choice. Jesus said repent; that means change your mind. That is the last thing a self righteous Jew or Christian will ever do. That is why God has to drag us.

It is in fact showing that one can resist the Holy Spirit, and also showing that we are not "forced," now that's your own logic working

 

[Tavita]

Amen; religious people murdered him; reject him; are the stiff neck people; but we are talking about salvation being a choice. Jesus said repent; that means change your mind. That is the last thing a self righteous Jew or Christian will ever do. That is why God has to drag us.

I believe we have no choice in salvation but we have choice in how we work out that salvation. Yes, we can resist, but in the end God's will is greater than our will and He will accomplish that which He desires.

 

[LJSGM]

I believe we have no choice in salvation but we have choice in how we work out that salvation. Yes, we can resist, but in the end God's will is greater than our will and He will accomplish that which He desires.

so, you're saying then, based on your logic, that it was God's will that his people kill his prophets and persecute believers (his children)? They not only resisted the Holy Spirit, but killed His prophets and all sorts of other things. Why didn't he "force" his will or force his Holy Spirit on them in these instances if you say that's what God does? Why then are there STILL unbelievers?

52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One

 

[Nadiine]

I believe we have no choice in salvation but we have choice in how we work out that salvation. Yes, we can resist, but in the end God's will is greater than our will and He will accomplish that which He desires.

As I said many times before, GOD ALSO WILLS THAT WE NOT SIN, yet He allows sin and allows all the heinous crimes we see today to exist.

God's WILL IS TO LET PEOPLE REJECT HIM. Romans 9 also says that God appoints some to destruction - and even still, we cannot JUDGE GOD. So even in Calvanism God's WILL may be that none perish, but He does either allow it to come to pass for ultimate reasons or causes it to happen for His ultimate purposes that we may not fully know.
Either way, according to Romans 9, even if God DOES create souls FOR destruction, man cannot Judge God.

You are basically saying that GOD OWES ALL CREATION an eternal life of peace and rest (that's not even mercy - your claiming that He OWES IT just becuz He created it). That's NOT biblical.

Rather than allowing His sovereignty to do as He chooses for reasons you can't comprehend. The bible clearly uses the words condemnation & destruction - not release later from it.
Universalism is a heretical false doctrine.

 

[Tavita]

As I said many times before, GOD ALSO WILLS THAT WE NOT SIN, yet He allows sin and allows all the heinous crimes we see today to exist.

God's WILL IS TO LET PEOPLE REJECT HIM. Romans 9 also says that God appoints some to destruction - and even still, we cannot JUDGE GOD. So even in Calvanism God's WILL may be that none perish, but He does either allow it to come to pass for ultimate reasons or causes it to happen for His ultimate purposes that we may not fully know.
Either way, according to Romans 9, even if God DOES create souls FOR destruction, man cannot Judge God.

You are basically saying that GOD OWES ALL CREATION an eternal life of peace and rest (that's not even mercy - your claiming that He OWES IT just becuz He created it). That's NOT biblical.

Rather than allowing His sovereignty to do as He chooses for reasons you can't comprehend. The bible clearly uses the words condemnation & destruction - not release later from it.
Universalism is a heretical false doctrine.

Can you show using the scripture that God's will is to let people reject Him?

And I could easily say over and over that Calvanism is heretical too.

 

[LJSGM]

Can you show using the scripture that God's will is to let people reject Him?

And I could easily say over and over that Calvanism is heretical too.

It's not God's will that people reject him, of course not.

But that wasn't the argument.

 

[Nadiine]

I'm also removing my subscription once again, bcuz I find this useless to continue with hearts that refuse to accept God's sovereignty; while also refusing to let GOD define what His love and mercy are.

I call this MAKING A gOD FOR YOURSELF. One you like and feel comfy with - that fits in YOUR ideal of what a God should be rather than what God clearly defines of Himself.

God help those are who are put in a complacent attitude about salvation becuz they're FALSELY told 'you don't have to get saved now, you get it later anyways!";

Undermining Jesus' most important statement:

YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN.​

(not, 'I'll make you born again later after you see Me in person so you can't deny the truth & avoid the punishment that awaits you - then you'll believe me & come to your senses; in the meantime, have fun down here kids bcuz you'll eventually figure it out')
God help anyone believing that such a thing.

 

[LJSGM]

If we had no will of our own, or were not "free moral agents" (as Ben12 so calls it), then the world would naturally be perfect, for God is perfect. There would be no sin, because there is no sin in him. You either believe that humans are "free moral agents" or believe that God is the author of ALL evil on earth (don't tell that to the child down the street that is being molested).

Why did God bring about the fall, and bring about sin into the world? What is your logic in this?

 

[Tavita]

Draw
NT: #1670
helkuo (hel-koo'-o); or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to NT:138; to drag (literally or figuratively).
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 21:6 they answered him, `No;' and he said to them, `Cast the net at the right side of the boat, and ye shall find;' they cast, therefore, and no longer were they able to draw it, from the multitude of the fishes.


There are fish in the net, and the fish do not have a whole lot of free will to escape once they are caught in the net. The fish do not know this, but we of higher intelligence know it. You also find this same word in James 2:6,
Jam 2:6 But you dishonored the poor one. Do not rich men oppress you and draw you before the judgment seats?

Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.

Here, Jesus uses that same word – drag. It does not sound like men have much to say in the matter. In other words, if the expression “to drag” implies the rich and powerful are dragging you into court or the net is dragging fish into the boat, then the ones being dragged are having their "free will" overruled by a higher will. Therefore we can say that if Jesus was lifted up, that is on the cross – which He was – He will drag all men unto Himself just as He plainly said He would do.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.

God has chosen them, so they will in turn choose God seemingly of their own free will. God preserves this illusion of free will, and this gives us the idea that we all have decided our own course. We hold this illusion of free will in our immaturity. Once we begin to understand who God is, and see His sovereignty and His glory and understand that He really is the Sovereign of the universe, then we begin to see that our will is merely a response to His will. The more we come to know Him, the more sovereign He seems to become, and the less free our will seems to be.

18 ¶ I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself, ‘Thou hast chastised me, And I am chastised, as a heifer not taught, Turn me back, and I turn back, For thou art Jehovah my God.
19 For after my turning back I repented, And after my being instructed I struck on the thigh, I have been ashamed, I have also blushed, For I have borne the reproach of my youth.

First it is God who turns Ephraim, then He gives repentance, then He gives instruction.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


God does ALL things after the counsel of His will...

Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

After the counsel of HIS will, not ours.

Who is Really Sovereign Here on Earth?

 

[Tavita]

As I said many times before, GOD ALSO WILLS THAT WE NOT SIN, yet He allows sin and allows all the heinous crimes we see today to exist.

God's WILL IS TO LET PEOPLE REJECT HIM. Romans 9 also says that God appoints some to destruction - and even still, we cannot JUDGE GOD. So even in Calvanism God's WILL may be that none perish, but He does either allow it to come to pass for ultimate reasons or causes it to happen for His ultimate purposes that we may not fully know.
Either way, according to Romans 9, even if God DOES create souls FOR destruction, man cannot Judge God.

You are basically saying that GOD OWES ALL CREATION an eternal life of peace and rest (that's not even mercy - your claiming that He OWES IT just becuz He created it). That's NOT biblical.

Rather than allowing His sovereignty to do as He chooses for reasons you can't comprehend. The bible clearly uses the words condemnation & destruction - not release later from it.
Universalism is a heretical false doctrine.

God's WILL IS TO LET PEOPLE REJECT HIM.

On the one hand you say it's man's free will and he has the choice, and on the other hand you say, as in Calvanism, we are predestined and have no choice.. only a few saved, the rest suffer eternal torment for something beyond their control...

 

[Ben12]

No the world was created by God not to be perfect; including us.

Romans *:20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,


No one said we have no will; BUT the only will we have is bound up by the carnal mind. God is God and if God is not in control of all evil OR the evil is greater then God.

Isa. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (KJV)

1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Why did God bring the fall; because we are God’s sons; Ben-Elohim (son of god/God) God does not want innocent sons (Adam) but overcomers; first Jesus the Christ after that the Benjamin Company/Body of Christ/Tabernacle of David/Melchisedec Priesthood. God is not calling all people now; the remainder of man kind is within His timing not some fundamental doctrine.

People of God hear religion, their pastor or priest; few have grown to the level of maturity where that stop nearing man; and hear God. I have explained this in bits in pieces in these FORUM; but religious man already have their minds set in the concrete of hard religious, carnal walls made of the hardest maternal known to man (religion). This was the reason for the first fall. God is using this world to establish a priesthood order under Melchisedec; a people that will no longer hear another voice like Adam; but will hear God.


Is God not all knowing; such a thing as sin as big as it has effected God’s creation are you saying happened without God’s approval; God is not so mortal. God had a savior before He had a sinner for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. In other words it was the beginning of God’s plan for humanity. Without a sinner there is no need for a savior; God wants mature overcoming sons; not innocence. (My two year old grandson is innocent and there is not anything more dangerous then a innocent child near something like traffic) The first Adam was innocent; the last Adam overcame all things.

1 Peter 1: 20 He​

indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world,​

but was manifest in these last times for you ​

​

Revelation 13:8.b​

Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​

God wanted/ordained Adam to sin; so that God’s people will be changed/mature and grow. If God created Adam a perfect spiritual being with no defects which He did in Genesis 1, Adam would not of fallen; but in Genesis 2 God changed Adam’s nature to the dust of the earth etc. With out the fall Adam would have just like many you disagree with ; a puppet. God desires obedience more then sacrifice; this takes a process of (SPIRITUAL) growth.

It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan. If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing.

 

[LJSGM]

Draw
NT: #1670
helkuo (hel-koo'-o); or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to NT:138; to drag (literally or figuratively).
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 21:6 they answered him, `No;' and he said to them, `Cast the net at the right side of the boat, and ye shall find;' they cast, therefore, and no longer were they able to draw it, from the multitude of the fishes.


There are fish in the net, and the fish do not have a whole lot of free will to escape once they are caught in the net. The fish do not know this, but we of higher intelligence know it. You also find this same word in James 2:6,

Jam 2:6 But you dishonored the poor one. Do not rich men oppress you and draw you before the judgment seats?

Here's the previous verse to James: 5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Oh course we don't REALLY love him, it's more of a "forcing" us to love Him?

Joh 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.

If this word draw means for "force" (not sure why he wouldn't just say force ), then why aren't all men believers? Does he chose some to be believers now and others to perform evil as a part of his will?

Here, Jesus uses that same word – drag. It does not sound like men have much to say in the matter. In other words, if the expression “to drag” implies the rich and powerful are dragging you into court or the net is dragging fish into the boat, then the ones being dragged are having their "free will" overruled by a higher will.

Now here you are making a persumption that our wills are overruled by His will in that he forces us. You get all of that from that one little verse that says he draws us?

from the strong's
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The bible says that he gave us over to our own wicked wills, the opposite of overruling our wills.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.

God has chosen them, so they will in turn choose God seemingly of their own free will. God preserves this illusion of free will, and this gives us the idea that we all have decided our own course. We hold this illusion of free will in our immaturity. Once we begin to understand who God is, and see His sovereignty and His glory and understand that He really is the Sovereign of the universe, then we begin to see that our will is merely a response to His will. The more we come to know Him, the more sovereign He seems to become, and the less free our will seems to be.

Ok, you believe that we have free will. Well, that's better I guess.

Oh, I saw this in John 6

27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

God does ALL things after the counsel of His will...

Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,


After the counsel of HIS will, not ours.

Of course

Who is Really Sovereign Here on Earth?

God

 

[LJSGM]

No the world was created by God not to be perfect; including us.

Romans *:20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly,but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Scriptures please... unless you mean Romans *:20. I wonder why you do that, to be decieving? Is it these verses that you meant to post?

Romans 8
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

If this is the verse you were refering to, then it does not prove your point that God caused us to sin and to fall.

No one said we have no will; BUT the only will we have is bound up by the carnal mind.

well, good, at least you admit now that we are free moral agents, and bad ones at that.

God is God and if God is not in control of all evil OR the evil is greater then God.

God is in control, but that doesn't mean that he ordained it. He foreknew, that's doesn't mean he caused it. He planned around it, that doesn't mean that he is the author of evil.

Isa. 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

proper interpretation would reveal that it's not evil that he says, but unrest that he creates, and no one's denying that, for sometimes he brings suffering for good.

1 Sam 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Or injurious spirit

Why did God bring the fall; because we are God’s sons; Ben-Elohim (son of god/God) God does not want innocent sons (Adam) but overcomers; first Jesus the Christ after that the Benjamin Company/Body of Christ/Tabernacle of David/Melchisedec Priesthood. God is not calling all people now; the remainder of man kind is within His timing not some fundamental doctrine.

scriptures please? because from scriptures it seems he does want a righteous people, who are innocent.

People of God hear religion, their pastor or priest; few have grown to the level of maturity where that stop nearing man; and hear God.

I have no man preaching to me, am I still hearing men (or nearing them as you call it?) and not God?

I have explained this in bits in pieces in these FORUM; but religious man already have their minds set in the concrete of hard religious, carnal walls made of the hardest maternal known to man (religion).

called scriptures? Is that what you think of them?

This was the reason for the first fall. God is using this world to establish a priesthood order under Melchisedec; a people that will no longer hear another voice like Adam; but will hear God.

I think you mean a preisthood under Christ by the order of Melschisedec. and I agree that once we are born again, we will hear God's voice and be lead by the Holy spirit

Is God not all knowing; such a thing as sin as big as it has effected God’s creation are you saying happened without God’s approval; God is not so mortal.

In order to create free will in us, he had to allow sin happen without his approval. Isn't that what sin is, but disobeying God's will?

God had a savior before He had a sinner for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. In other words it was the beginning of God’s plan for humanity

. Without a sinner there is no need for a savior;

I agree

God wants mature overcoming sons; not innocence.

No, he wants a people that are righteous, and as I said before, what is sin but disobeidance.

(My two year old grandson is innocent and there is not anything more dangerous then a innocent child near something like traffic)

So, instead of warning us and teaching us, he throws us into traffic and gets us run over so that we know better next time?

God wanted/ordained Adam to sin; so that God’s people will be changed/mature and grow. If God created Adam a perfect spiritual being with no defects which He did in Genesis 1, Adam would not of fallen; but in Genesis 2 God changed Adam’s nature to the dust of the earth etc. With out the fall Adam would have just like many you disagree with ; a puppet.

But what about the angels that did not fall? Are they not good enough for Him, somehow they are just puppets? Why didn't he make ALL of them fall then?

God desires obedience more then sacrifice; this takes a process of (SPIRITUAL) growth.

so, God causes men to be disobeidant in order to be more obeidant?

 

[Ben12]

Here's the previous verse to James: 5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Oh course we don't REALLY love him, it's more of a "forcing" us to love Him?



If this word draw means for "force" (not sure why he wouldn't just say force ), then why aren't all men believers? Does he chose some to be believers now and others to perform evil as a part of his will?



Now here you are making a persumption that our wills are overruled by His will in that he forces us. You get all of that from that one little verse that says he draws us?

from the strong's
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The bible says that he gave us over to our own wicked wills, the opposite of overruling our wills.



Ok, you believe that we have free will. Well, that's better I guess.

Oh, I saw this in John 6

27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."





Of course



God

I never used the word force until this forum; but I did use the word drag. The word force was my word. But God's Spirit is a force that no man can resist if God drags/draws you. Paul was such an awesome example if you look at the facts; he was so different then the other eleven. They were all chosen by Jesus in the flesh. But no Paul was different; God called Him; God knocked Him off his horse, God blinded Him. Saul had no intentions on following Jesus; he was a proud religous Pharassee. God is calling out a people; out of Baby lon, out of man made relgious creed, dogmas and systems. But not by your own freewill or choice; but by His soverign will.

 

[Tavita]

Here's the previous verse to James: 5Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Oh course we don't REALLY love him, it's more of a "forcing" us to love Him?

There are also many who are rich in the eyes of the world who are rich in faith.

Do all men love God before He calls them? Once He has drawn, once He gives the gift of repentance, once we are instructed... then we love Him.

If this word draw means for "force" (not sure why he wouldn't just say force ), then why aren't all men believers? Does he chose some to be believers now and others to perform evil as a part of his will?

I actually wouldn't call it 'force' either, He has great powers of persuasion, and knows how to soften a heart. All men aren't believer's now, only those who are the firstfruits. The firstfruits are the promise of the harvest.

1Ti 4:10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Now here you are making a persumption that our wills are overruled by His will in that he forces us. You get all of that from that one little verse that says he draws us?

from the strong's
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The bible says that he gave us over to our own wicked wills, the opposite of overruling our wills.

As I said I didn't use the word 'force'. It wasn't only one little verse with the word 'draw'. He gives us over to our own will for His own good purposes. That doesn't mean He can't override that same will 'when' He chooses.
Can you deny the convicting power of the Holy Spirit in drawing those whose wills are against Him.. while we were yet sinners?

Ok, you believe that we have free will. Well, that's better I guess.

Oh, I saw this in John 6

27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

Yes, I agree, we do have freewill in 'working out' our salvation. That is the basis of what we build on our foundation, and everything not of Him gets burned up. We have the choice of whether to obey or disobey, that is not in regards to our initial salvation.

 

[LJSGM]

I never used the word force until this forum; but I did use the word drag. The word force was my word. But God's Spirit is a force that no man can resist if God drags/draws you.

The parable of Lararus is a good for this theory.

Luke 16
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " (who rises from the but Christ, and still, they will not believe him! God can't even be bothered to send Lazarus because he already knows nothing can be done for them)

 

[Tavita]

The parable of Lararus is a good for this theory.

Luke 16
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' " (who rises from the but Christ, and still, they will not believe him! God can't even be bothered to send Lazarus because he already knows nothing can be done for them)

Even though we disagree on things, LJSGM, I love your gentle spirit that comes through in your posts!