Hell is a correctional jail

[Tavita]

Yes, the time Christ came as Messiah IS "the last days", and we're given signs to know the times by as they approach His 2nd coming.

Also, you're forgetting one HUGE chunk of information here; THE BIBLE ITSELF!

We've given you dozens (at leat 15) scriptures & passages where it's taught the permancence of judgment/condemnation (after death). It also refutes the very NECESSITY OF SALVATION RIGHT NOW. As if we get saved anyways, so enjoy your sins folks, live it up, you get in anyways, yoU DON'T HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN RIGHT NOW.
You still FAIL to be able to show me your evidence from the bible that explains this in any detail - as it so richly and vividly explains & describes the details of the processes of their judgment & being SENT to hell then put into the Lake of Fire.

Who are you talking to Nadine? Are you saying I enjoy being in my sins? Are you saying I think nothing of sinning against the Lord? Why do you make these charges at me and others? It does NOT refute the necessity of salvation right now. I think you may have 'saved' this type of response and use it whenever you want to stop your ears from hearing anyone. I DO BELIEVE PEOPLE SHOULD BE SAVED RIGHT NOW!

You call this charging people with loving to be in their sin as debate? You have accused the brethren, Nadine.

All of the scriptures you have used have been refuted in this thread, but you don't hear them. We all USE TO believe those same verses as you do, until we came to see them in a new light.

So you can quote me your Wikipedia, but I have other sources that don't support this. As I stated, I don't 100% accept everything Wikipedia puts out - it can be helpful, but not the "end all" of truth.

.. I told you in the last post that it was NOT from Wikipedia... do you really read other people's posts?

Until you have the proper evidence FROM THE BIBLE ITSELF that explains God forcing them to serve their time, THEN LETTING THEM OUT & TELLING US EXACTLY WHEN AND WHERE THEY REJOIN THE SAINTS OF GOD WHO DID ACCEPT CHRIST, (or anything that remotely even claims this clearly) you have little to nothing to stand on but a concept & theory. (a theory that refutes other clearly stated doctrine).

Well, this is my last post in this thread. Of course, you can believe whatever you want the scriptures to say. I just pray one day your heart and mind will be opened to truth.

God bless you, Nadine.

 

[Nadiine]

Who are you talking to Nadine? Are you saying I enjoy being in my sins? Are you saying I think nothing of sinning against the Lord? Why do you make these charges at me and others?

I made no judgments about you, any you perceive are read in by you.

It does NOT refute the necessity of salvation right now. I think you may have 'saved' this type of response and use it whenever you want to stop your ears from hearing anyone. I DO BELIEVE PEOPLE SHOULD BE SAVED RIGHT NOW!

WHY? Why do they NEED salvation when they're going to ultimately get it anyways?? Why not live in the sins they desire here and GAIN BOTH LIVES?
What nonChristian who doesn't care about God & obeying His moral laws is going to rush to God so they can "put their flesh to death & take up their crosses" to live for Him & SUFFER down here, when they attain BOTH worlds?
It makes no sense to a lost soul who enjoys life their own way. They WILL get heaven later - so they may as well enjoy this one too.
It does defeat the necessity of salvation if anyone would bother to think it thru in the worldview of a lost soul.

You call this charging people with loving to be in their sin as debate? You have accused the brethren, Nadine.

And you've read in more than what was given - outside its context (which universalists often do).

All of the scriptures you have used have been refuted in this thread, but you don't hear them. We all USE TO believe those same verses as you do, until we came to see them in a new light.

I don't hear you becuz you're taking the verses you use OUTSIDE their contexts, READING MORE INTO THEM, deciding how God's attributes are applied outside what HE says they are, and ignoring blatant scriptures that spell the process out; both directly and thru parables.
Even an annihilationist disagrees with Universalism... that should speak volumes.

YOU HAVEN'T GIVEN ME THE VERSES I ASKED YOU TO GIVE ME to prove your case! And until you do, I reject this doctrine as FALSE. You can't say I should "SEE" something, when you haven't provided the scriptures necessary.
Just saying "God is merciful" isnt' support! Bcuz your'e READING IN that He's merciful to everyone in every way.

Using that isn't proof for your doctrine! (namely when I stated Heb. 10 that declares they will die WITHOUT MERCY from God. A direct refutation to your support.
(ignored by you guys).

.. I told you in the last post that it was NOT from Wikipedia... do you really read other people's posts?

Yes I do, I read Wiki on it... I guess I was seeing things that day.

Well, this is my last post in this thread. Of course, you can believe whatever you want the scriptures to say. I just pray one day your heart and mind will be opened to truth.

& that's all I am open to: TRUTH. Until the bible is clear on it without self refuting itself, I cannot consider it to BE any truth.
Proof wasn't provided - and if it were, it would contradict the clear scriptures elsewhere that spell out the process of judgment for the lost who reject their Saviour's payment.

I'll leave this conversation with the same thought pattern I gave earlier, GOD IS LOVE, GOD IS MERCIFUL, GOD GIVES GRACE.... but He still allows evil to rear it's ugly head; He still allows little children to be kidnapped & sold into prostitution, molested, raped and people to be tortured and maimed.

God is love, and God wills that NONE should perish - but HE ALLOWS them to perish in His permissive will; as they have chosen in this life to reject Him.

Just claiming God is love doesn't remove His condemnation on the soul, just like it doesn't stop children from being harmed in evil ways. WOULD YOU / COULD YOU SIT BY & WATCH A CHILD BRUTALIZED IF YOU LOVED THEM? Probly not... I couldn't either! AND I DO LOVE THEM!

We can't read in what we think and attach that to God as we will.

 

[Ben12]

Yes, the time Christ came as Messiah IS "the last days", and we're given signs to know the times by as they approach His 2nd coming.

Also, you're forgetting one HUGE chunk of information here; THE BIBLE ITSELF!

We've given you dozens (at leat 15) scriptures & passages where it's taught the permancence of judgment/condemnation (after death). It also refutes the very NECESSITY OF SALVATION RIGHT NOW. As if we get saved anyways, so enjoy your sins folks, live it up, you get in anyways, yoU DON'T HAVE TO BE BORN AGAIN RIGHT NOW.
You still FAIL to be able to show me your evidence from the bible that explains this in any detail - as it so richly and vividly explains & describes the details of the processes of their judgment & being SENT to hell then put into the Lake of Fire.

You can quote me any church you want, but it's NOT IN THE BIBLE outside verses being yanked out of their contexts and READ IN by you guys.
What you believe isn't supported in the Bible.

And I'll give you yet another article on the history of Universalism:


So you can quote me your Wikipedia, but I have other sources that don't support this. As I stated, I don't 100% accept everything Wikipedia puts out - it can be helpful, but not the "end all" of truth.

Until you have the proper evidence FROM THE BIBLE ITSELF that explains God forcing them to serve their time, THEN LETTING THEM OUT & TELLING US EXACTLY WHEN AND WHERE THEY REJOIN THE SAINTS OF GOD WHO DID ACCEPT CHRIST, (or anything that remotely even claims this clearly) you have little to nothing to stand on but a concept & theory. (a theory that refutes other clearly stated doctrine).

I would point you briefly to one plain and positive illustration which proceeded from the lips of our Lord Jesus Christ. Luke 12:36 "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be BEATEN WITH FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Lk. 12:45-48).

In this parable it is plain that Christ is teaching degrees of punishment. The Christ teaches that those who have committed things worthy of many stripes, will receive many, and those who were ignorant, and with lesser light did not know or understand the will of God, yet did things worthy of stripes, shall receive but a few. Here is set forth in the plainest of language not only varying degrees of punishment, but also varying lengths of time for the punishment. What ever the judgment typified by the "stripes," it takes longer to inflict many stripes than just a few, so it should not be difficult to understand that some men are punished for a longer period of time than others. The Word of God declares that the Judge of all the earth shall do right, and I believe that He shall do just that. As our children were growing up we did not have one stock punishment for all their misdeeds. We suited the punishment to the disobedience, yet we haven't granted the same privilege to God! We have said that everyone is to receive the very same common punishment, hell fire, and that that judgment would endure for the very same length of time for all - eternity! How, then, I ask, can some be beaten with "many stripes" and others with "few stripes" if all receive the same punishment of endless hell fire? How foolish can we be! It is always extremely foolish to hold to a doctrine that clearly contradicts the Word of God
There would be no answer to your argument; I would be forced to throw up my hands and admit that these words of our Lord apply only to the correction and discipline of servants of the Lord, and have absolutely no bearing whatever on the judgment of unbelievers, or on hell, or on the lake of fire, were it not for one significant statement that appears in verse forty-six. The Lord says, "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for Him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S." Do you see that? Ah, the punishment of this SERVANT is the SAME PUNISHMENT as the UNBELIEVER receives! He is appointed his portion WITH THE UNBELIEVERS! The punishment, therefore, of this servant of the Lord and the punishment of the unbelievers is equal, identical, of the same intensity, for the same length of time, the very same punishment, and that punishment is? -MANY STRIPES! Not unending stripes; not everlasting whipping; not eternal torment under the hands of the tormentors; but - many stripes. And of what precise judgment speaks our Lord when He commands "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers?" What is the "portion of the unbelievers?" Hear it! "But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING ... shall have their part (portion) IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE" (Rev. 21:8). The "portion of the unbelievers" is the lake of fire. And not only are the unbelievers judged there, but the unfaithful servants of God are dealt with there, too! And, by Jesus' own words, this punishment is called "many stripes," and is shown to be limited in its duration and corrective and remedial in its nature.

 

[Ben12]

Until you have the proper evidence FROM THE BIBLE ITSELF that explains God forcing them to serve their time, THEN LETTING THEM OUT & TELLING US EXACTLY WHEN AND WHERE THEY REJOIN THE SAINTS OF GOD WHO DID ACCEPT CHRIST, (or anything that remotely even claims this clearly) you have little to nothing to stand on but a concept & theory. (a theory that refutes other clearly stated doctrine).[/quote]

Show me one verse where sinners choose salvation; or the word freewill; or that man is a free mortal agent?

God draws us or drags us; or in my word FORCES us to come to Him; do I need to show you the verses again.

Romans 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. ​

John 6:44

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day​

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);drag​

Jeremiah 18:2
Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made ofclay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.​

​

Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).) 14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

You refuse to acknowledge the above because it makes no sense to send sinners to hell; and that is your whole point.

 

[LJSGM]

I would point you briefly to one plain and positive illustration which proceeded from the lips of our Lord Jesus Christ. Luke 12:36 "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be BEATEN WITH MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be BEATEN WITH FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Lk. 12:45-48).

In this parable it is plain that Christ is teaching degrees of punishment. The Christ teaches that those who have committed things worthy of many stripes, will receive many, and those who were ignorant, and with lesser light did not know or understand the will of God, yet did things worthy of stripes, shall receive but a few. Here is set forth in the plainest of language not only varying degrees of punishment, but also varying lengths of time for the punishment. What ever the judgment typified by the "stripes," it takes longer to inflict many stripes than just a few, so it should not be difficult to understand that some men are punished for a longer period of time than others. The Word of God declares that the Judge of all the earth shall do right, and I believe that He shall do just that. As our children were growing up we did not have one stock punishment for all their misdeeds. We suited the punishment to the disobedience, yet we haven't granted the same privilege to God! We have said that everyone is to receive the very same common punishment, hell fire, and that that judgment would endure for the very same length of time for all - eternity! How, then, I ask, can some be beaten with "many stripes" and others with "few stripes" if all receive the same punishment of endless hell fire? How foolish can we be! It is always extremely foolish to hold to a doctrine that clearly contradicts the Word of God
There would be no answer to your argument; I would be forced to throw up my hands and admit that these words of our Lord apply only to the correction and discipline of servants of the Lord, and have absolutely no bearing whatever on the judgment of unbelievers, or on hell, or on the lake of fire, were it not for one significant statement that appears in verse forty-six. The Lord says, "The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looks not for Him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S." Do you see that? Ah, the punishment of this SERVANT is the SAME PUNISHMENT as the UNBELIEVER receives! He is appointed his portion WITH THE UNBELIEVERS! The punishment, therefore, of this servant of the Lord and the punishment of the unbelievers is equal, identical, of the same intensity, for the same length of time, the very same punishment, and that punishment is? -MANY STRIPES! Not unending stripes; not everlasting whipping; not eternal torment under the hands of the tormentors; but - many stripes. And of what precise judgment speaks our Lord when He commands "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers?" What is the "portion of the unbelievers?" Hear it! "But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING ... shall have their part (portion) IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE" (Rev. 21:8). The "portion of the unbelievers" is the lake of fire. And not only are the unbelievers judged there, but the unfaithful servants of God are dealt with there, too! And, by Jesus' own words, this punishment is called "many stripes," and is shown to be limited in its duration and corrective and remedial in its nature.

It's good that you've pointed out that "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers," because this clarifies things for us. Those that he is taking to and are his servants are BELIEVERS and these parables were written for them.

1 Corinthians 3
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

when in context and in these verses, this clearly is speaking of BELIEVERS or those IN Christ.

1 Peter 4
18 "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

 

[LJSGM]

Show me one verse where sinners choose salvation; or the word freewill; or that man is a free mortal agent?

It's pretty clear to me that men are free moral agents, but heres a chapter that pretty much spells it out for us.

Romans 1
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 

[LJSGM]

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

to me, this is pretty apparent that the choice and the covenant is established by what we have chosen to believe.

 

[Ben12]

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

to me, this is pretty apparent that the choice and the covenant is established by what we have chosen to believe.

John 3:16
I have always hated the way traditional teaching has used this awesome verse in the Bible on one hand to point to salvation which it does; but on the other hand condemn the rest of humanity which it does not

: Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,
"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all,
any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

AP Adams: The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all,
believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe");
to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator

AP Adams Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of
the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow,
shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save
the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators
of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[Ben12]

It's good that you've pointed out that "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers," because this clarifies things for us. Those that he is taking to and are his servants are BELIEVERS and these parables were written for them.

1 Corinthians 3
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

when in context and in these verses, this clearly is speaking of BELIEVERS or those IN Christ.

1 Peter 4
18 "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

Yes; on the day of Pentecost believers got cloven tongues of fire; because we are not perfect; this fire has grown and grown and grown to a Lake of Devine Purging at the end of the age that will burn up all the wood hay and stubble; but not the people. . Yes; Gehenna or the Lake of Fire is for believers as well as non believers.

 

[Ben12]

It's pretty clear to me that men are free moral agents, but heres a chapter that pretty much spells it out for us.

Romans 1
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

How true is the word, "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23). If MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT. Let me call attention to the fact that the phrase "free moral agent" is not a Scriptural one, any more than the term "rapture" is Scriptural. Free moral agency is simply a theological expression, man-manufactured for his own convenience, and like most human inventions, and extra-biblical terminology, is not the truth at all. But briefly let us examine these three words: free moral agent.
1. An AGENT is an actor, one who is able to act or perform.
2. A FREE agent is one who can act as he pleases without any restraint of any kind placed upon him.
3. A free MORAL agent is one who is free to act as he pleases and without any restraint on all moral issues, i. e. all questions involving the qualities of right and wrong.
I do not believe that the Bible anywhere teaches that man is a free moral agent. That teaching is a figment of the imagination of the harlot church system. In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, "It is NOT of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16). The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land/muslin land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents!
The preachers claim that when God made man in the first place, He endowed him with freedom of will, the ability to accept God's love or reject it, to keep God's laws or break them, and that the decision here and now is a final choice. But our Lord says, "No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him" (Jn. 6:44). Let us think a moment of just how free man is, how far his freedom reaches. A little observation and study will show that man's freedom has very narrow limits. One is able to wish or desire or purpose as he pleases, but when he comes to carry out his wish or desire or purpose, he finds that he faces a problem. One is not free in the physical realm. Just let him try to jump off the Earth and land on Mars, for example. One is not free in the social realm. Not every man can marry the woman he wishes. One is not free in the economic realm. Not every person who dreams of being a millionaire can become one, no matter how hard he tries. One is not free in the moral and spiritual realm. He may desire with all his being to rid the world of drunkenness and vice, of greed and hate and war, but who has yet accomplished that? Many are not able to free even themselves from a little weed called tobacco!
Life neither begins or ends by choice and free will. Consider the matter of your own physical birth. What did you have to do with it, my friend? May I remind you that you were not consulted in the matter; you were absolutely passive in it; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into. Did someone say to you, "Tell me, sir - or would you rather be madam? Would you like to have black hair, or blond hair, or perhaps no hair at all? Would you like to have brown eyes or blue? Would you like to have white skin, or black, or would green, or red, or yellow suit you better? And where would you like to live? In Miami, or Hong Kong, or Siberia, or maybe in the Congo?" Nothing of the sort! You were not even consulted. The sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth brought you into existence and ordained your path without so much a how-do-you-feel-about-it. And you had no choice as to how you would be born, in what condition or state of being. The Psalmist declared, "Behold, I was brought forth in a state of iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me and 1, too, am sinful" (Ps. 51:5, Amplified). Well did the apostle Paul write . ..... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... for by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:12,19). If any man had brought himself into being, then we can conceive of the possibility of his having something to say about his condition and destiny. But mankind had absolutely nothing whatever to do with his coming into this world. It was the choice of God. God chose to bring this creature into existence because He had a definite plan for him in His creative purposes in the whole universe. It was God who formed man of the dust of the ground. It was God who breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. It was God who placed man in the Garden of Eden. It was God who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the Garden. It was God who gave the law that man should neither touch this tree nor eat of it. And it was God who made the serpent and put him in the Garden and sent him along one beautiful day to tempt the man. It was GOD!
Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent. If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices. If God made man a free moral agent, He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent as He would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that He had made. Man's free moral agency, even if it were true, would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts since God is his Creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be. If God's will is ever thwarted, then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. If His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, must be working toward some wise and wonderful end!

 

[LJSGM]

Yes; on the day of Pentecost believers got cloven tongues of fire; because we are not perfect; this fire has grown and grown and grown to a Lake of Devine Purging at the end of the age that will burn up all the wood hay and stubble; but not the people. . Yes; Gehenna or the Lake of Fire is for believers as well as non believers.

You speak a different gospel.

This gospel that I'm hearing is not found in the scriptures, and not the one that I'm hearing from the Holy Spirit either.

What further do I have to say?

"this fire has grown and grown and grown to a Lake of Devine Purging at the end of the age that will burn up all the wood hay and stubble; but not the people"

scriptures please?

 

[LJSGM]

How true is the word, "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23). If MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT. Let me call attention to the fact that the phrase "free moral agent" is not a Scriptural one, any more than the term "rapture" is Scriptural. Free moral agency is simply a theological expression, man-manufactured for his own convenience, and like most human inventions, and extra-biblical terminology, is not the truth at all. But briefly let us examine these three words: free moral agent.

You seem to use a lot of extra-biblical terminology as well. Terminology is just a way to help us understand each other, it's not something "evil" like you make it out to be. Besides, I have never used that terminology until you used it yourself and I used it to comunicate back to you.

1. An AGENT is an actor, one who is able to act or perform.
2. A FREE agent is one who can act as he pleases without any restraint of any kind placed upon him.
3. A free MORAL agent is one who is free to act as he pleases and without any restraint on all moral issues, i. e. all questions involving the qualities of right and wrong.
I do not believe that the Bible anywhere teaches that man is a free moral agent. That teaching is a figment of the imagination of the harlot church system.

I've given you verses showing that we are. Romans Chapter One STARTS out saying this very thing making it clear before he even begins that men are without excuse.

In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, "It is NOT of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16).

how many times will I have to cover this? I can't do anything about you misunderstanding this verse I guess.

The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice?

Yes, our environment seduces us to sin, this is why God is destroying sin and those that chose to engage in it.

If an adulterous woman seduces you into sinning, do you now not have the will to chose whether to go with her or not? Are you saying that since we are seduced to sin, then it no longer our fault if we do because we are "slaves" to it? and it was God's fault for allowing the seduction, so we are no longer to blame?

In the same way, if Christ seduces us (draws us as you call it), then you are also saying that we do not have a choice in the matter?

Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime?

No, I wouldn't call children free moral agents, but who knows, maybe they are, since I know that children are corrupted from the beginning. Perhaps it is better that the child grow up in sin, for then they have a better chance at knowing forgiveness for their sins, whereas a person that is relatively "good" never thinks they are in need of anything, nor if they have everything they want and are comfortable in this world, then they are more likely to not know that they have nothing and will not cry out to God for more. Perhaps God places children and people in certain conditions in order to have them cry out to him, and he will save them.

Consider the matter of your own physical birth. What did you have to do with it, my friend? May I remind you that you were not consulted in the matter; you were absolutely passive in it; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into. Did someone say to you, "Tell me, sir - or would you rather be madam? Would you like to have black hair, or blond hair, or perhaps no hair at all? Would you like to have brown eyes or blue? Would you like to have white skin, or black, or would green, or red, or yellow suit you better? And where would you like to live? In Miami, or Hong Kong, or Siberia, or maybe in the Congo?" Nothing of the sort! You were not even consulted. The sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth brought you into existence and ordained your path without so much a how-do-you-feel-about-it. And you had no choice as to how you would be born, in what condition or state of being. The Psalmist declared, "Behold, I was brought forth in a state of iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me and 1, too, am sinful" (Ps. 51:5, Amplified).

Well did the apostle Paul write . ..... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... for by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:12,19). If any man had brought himself into being, then we can conceive of the possibility of his having something to say about his condition and destiny. But mankind had absolutely nothing whatever to do with his coming into this world. It was the choice of God. God chose to bring this creature into existence because He had a definite plan for him in His creative purposes in the whole universe. It was God who formed man of the dust of the ground. It was God who breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. It was God who placed man in the Garden of Eden. It was God who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the Garden. It was God who gave the law that man should neither touch this tree nor eat of it. And it was God who made the serpent and put him in the Garden and sent him along one beautiful day to tempt the man. It was GOD!

Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent. If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices. If God made man a free moral agent, He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent as He would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that He had made. Man's free moral agency, even if it were true, would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts since God is his Creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be.

I'm amazed that you can judge God so, for no man knows what God has done, and noone can say that God is at fault. Were you there when God decided these things, and do you understand the reasoning behind them? I don't know, and expect I might find out when I get there, but for now, you make a lot of persumptions about God. For all you know, there could have been a war in heaven, and men were collateral damage. Who really knows?
I don't think you do either in order to judge God's actions.

If God's will is ever thwarted, then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. If His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, must be working toward some wise and wonderful end!

can the potter then not destroy what he doesn't like that was made through the earth if the clay was not right? Are you limiting him this act?

 

[Ben12]

You speak a different gospel.

This gospel that I'm hearing is not found in the scriptures, and not the one that I'm hearing from the Holy Spirit either.

What further do I have to say?

"this fire has grown and grown and grown to a Lake of Devine Purging at the end of the age that will burn up all the wood hay and stubble; but not the people"

scriptures please?

There is no good new in eternal hell and torture; The good news is all flesh; can't get lower then flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Luke 3: 6 (amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

 

[Ben12]

The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by nature! We were born into this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!
There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his total inability to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God. When man insists that he still has a "spark" of divine good resident in his heart the Bible says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). When man contends that he is a free moral agent and can accept or reject the Lord by his own volition, the Word of God contradicts him, declaring, "There is none righteous, no not one! There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" (Rom. 3:10-11).
Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free." It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will never make a decision for Christ. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth. In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.
Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, until God ses fit to give them life and understanding. Faith follows the giving of Life. The giving of Life is by the will of God. Notice the order: "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)" (Eph. 2:4-5). Man is not saved by some mythical act of his own free will. He is saved by grace, the divine enablement of God who first gives him Life and then imparts faith in his heart as a free gift. Paul continues: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the Gift of God. It is not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).
Observe! Saving faith is the gift of God, not an exercise of man's free will!" Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart, nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift is the agency of man's believing. God has decreed that the works of the flesh shall have no part in the "so great salvation" which He Himself provides. It is His work through the Gift of Life. He regenerated us when we were dead in sins. Life is His Gift. Faith is His Gift. We are saved by a faith which "is not of ourselves." We believed by the faith which GOD gives, not by our own free will! Until a man has been quickened by the Holy Spirit the word is: "Why do ye not understand My speech? Even because ye cannot hear My word! Ye are of your father the devil" (Jn. 8:43-44). But once God quickens us by the Gift of Life and the Gift of Faith the word is: "It is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

 

[LJSGM]

"If the Holy Spirit’s work by default would bring a person to salvation, then man’s part in his salvation is to not resist the Holy Spirit."

 

[hiumble1]

Sorry Ben12 it is a choice.....
When you look throughout the Bible OT... you have Noah.... It did not say he was without sin, but did not give into the society he lived in.... Choice....

 

[Ben12]

"If the Holy Spirit’s work by default would bring a person to salvation, then man’s part in his salvation is to not resist the Holy Spirit."

You are not giving scripture; you are giving me your logic.

 

[Ben12]

Sorry Ben12 it is a choice.....
When you look throughout the Bible OT... you have Noah.... It did not say he was without sin, but did not give into the society he lived in.... Choice....

What does Noah have to do with man choosing Salvation? So me one scripture that says man choose salvation.

 

[Nadiine]

The message is clear - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by nature!
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" (Rom. 3:10-11).
Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free." It is a slave to the flesh. Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will never make a decision for Christ. Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40). Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth.
In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.
Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness.

According to THIS, NO ONE CAN EVEN BE SAVED RIGHT NOW bcuz it's absolutely impossible to choose God in our current "dead' position.

God calls us to Himself and gives us all a "measure of faith" to accept. We aren't inexcusable in rejecting God. (Romans 1:18-32)

MILLIONS & MILLIONS claim and have claimed Christ (who is God) during this physical life. WE ATTAIN SALVATION NOW. The Bible tells us that FEW HAVE IT. God even in the past has always kept His remnants while most others rebelled and left for their own way.

Matt. 7:
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

God's path is the least popular - yet it's the right path and the right road to eternal life with God.
WE CAN and DO find our salvation right now on this earth and after that life, comes JUDGMENT (sentencing) for all things we've done in the body. This IS what we are judged on right now. So God obviously expects that we live righteously if we're being JUDGED on how we live down here - and that includes accepting His Ransom for our sin.

We are not ALL "unregenerate" (reprobates) - God knows who the reprobates are - it's not any who have or will eventually come to Him in the future. It's for Him to know, not us.

 

[Ben12]

According to THIS, NO ONE CAN EVEN BE SAVED RIGHT NOW bcuz it's absolutely impossible to choose God in our current "dead' position.

God calls us to Himself and gives us all a "measure of faith" to accept. We aren't inexcusable in rejecting God. (Romans 1:18-32)

MILLIONS & MILLIONS claim and have claimed Christ (who is God) during this physical life. WE ATTAIN SALVATION NOW. The Bible tells us that FEW HAVE IT. God even in the past has always kept His remnants while most others rebelled and left for their own way.

Matt. 7:
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

God's path is the least popular - yet it's the right path and the right road to eternal life with God.
WE CAN and DO find our salvation right now on this earth and after that life, comes JUDGMENT (sentencing) for all things we've done in the body. This IS what we are judged on right now. So God obviously expects that we live righteously if we're being JUDGED on how we live down here - and that includes accepting His Ransom for our sin.

We are not ALL "unregenerate" (reprobates) - God knows who the reprobates are - it's not any who have or will eventually come to Him in the future. It's for Him to know, not us.

You cut the thread in half and acted as if that was all that I wrote; You act as if the narrow gate is some how the way you see things; the narrow gate is Christ; without any preconceived bias. No extra baggage religous because the narrow gate has no room to fit carnal, religous dogmas, creeds and doctrines of damnations. You are right about God's way being the least popular. You have no faith until God/Holy Spirit/Christ calls you/draws/drags or in my words forces you.

Unregenerate men cannot comprehend even that they should come to the Light. They are the unborn dead who know only darkness. They are totally depraved, wholly incapable of thinking, perceiving, or doing anything pleasing to God, until God ses fit to give them life and understanding. Faith follows the giving of Life. The giving of Life is by the will of God. Notice the order: "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)" (Eph. 2:4-5). Man is not saved by some mythical act of his own free will. He is saved by grace, the divine enablement of God who first gives him Life and then imparts faith in his heart as a free gift. Paul continues: "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the Gift of God. It is not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).
Observe! Saving faith is the gift of God, not an exercise of man's free will!" Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart, nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift is the agency of man's believing. God has decreed that the works of the flesh shall have no part in the "so great salvation" which He Himself provides. It is His work through the Gift of Life. He regenerated us when we were dead in sins. Life is His Gift. Faith is His Gift. We are saved by a faith which "is not of ourselves." We believed by the faith which GOD gives, not by our own free will! Until a man has been quickened by the Holy Spirit the word is: "Why do ye not understand My speech? Even because ye cannot hear My word! Ye are of your father the devil" (Jn. 8:43-44). But once God quickens us by the Gift of Life and the Gift of Faith the word is: "It is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).