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marineimaging

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Something came to mind, that being that many of the references here are to hell as a punishment. I heard a parent tell his child to come away from the fishing rods as they weren't looking for rods and the child said "no" and continued playing with one. The parent said, "Well, suit yourself. Stay here and I will leave. You can make up your mind if you want to play alone or come see what I have in mind for you." The child, faced with that decision, happily bolted and caught up with the parent. I won't argue it one way or another but it is manifested through scripture hell is a result of not believing. It is not a punishment. The cause of punishment is to drive one toward being better the next time around. Making a better decision when faced with a repeat of the same behavior or opportunity. Well, there is no next time when the idea of hell comes into play so there is no way to be better next time. We are warned away from hell as a final resting place for the soul and as I said before, it is evident to me that hell is a state of being without God and that comes thorugh our choices. It is not Gods desire that we be commended to hell for not believing, it is the natural result of not believing that we will find ourselves there.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I examined every statement Jesus made in the NT about why He was here and what His mission was. Saving us from our sins and from death were mentioned (IIRC), but He never said He came to save us from Hell.

Anyway, there is a problem with the concept of a "future eternal home." The ancient concept of death was that when you're dead, you're really dead. Now our culture has long absorbed the Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul. Given that, folks believe that your soul zips off to Heaven or Hell the moment you "die." Be aware that Immortality of the Soul comes to us from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. Get free of that, and you have no choice but the ancient yup yer dead. If so, you need God to be anything else.
 
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xlr8ing

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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life". I know that John 3:16 gets thrown around a lot, but how can you have issue with this verse in relation to a future eternal home?
 
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SkyWriting

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Where in all of the universe do you go that God is not? King David said "If I make my bed in hell, thou are there."
The idea of a place called "hell" where God is not is a fallacious piece of human reasoning not consistent with Scripture.
There are a few people who live without God in their life.
But I wonder if King David was referring to the reality
of Hell rather than God keeping him company, ie playing
rounds of pinochle, in the lake of fire.
 
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Lazarus Short

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That's a fair question, and I have no problem with John 3:16, but one verse almost never settles a matter. Let me add this: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." I Timothy 4:10. It would seem, if both verses are true, and they are, that all men will come to believe in Him, be saved, and have everlasting life. As I posted elsewhere, the teaching of the salvation of all (and of the non-existence of Hell) harmonizes with the whole counsel of God vastly better than the damnation of the wicked to Hell.
 
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Lazarus Short

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You have just about called me a disciple of Satan. Do you realize how un-Christian that is? Since you post your conclusion FIRST, it only means that an eternal Hell may be the core of your Belief System, when it should be Jesus. Do you realize that millions of unbelievers out there are unbelieving because they "get" the disconnect between a God who loves them (so they are told), and an eternal Hell they will be sent to if they don't believe? These are intelligent, honest people, and one can hardly blame them. Hell makes the Gospel (Good News) Bad News for most of humanity. Do you suppose that Christianity spread to the far ends of the known world in just the first century by preaching Hell? No, quite the opposite!

No, I twisted nothing. I merely listed a set of Scriptures which did not quite go your way. I mistranslated nothing - again just listed Scriptures, and drew a valid conclusion from them. I took nothing out of context, for I stress keeping things in context, like the one point which covers Exodus thru Deuteronomy. I did not "spin a yarn" - I made a methodical, careful study of the Scriptures with a view to discern if they supported the existence of Hell, or not. I know that for many Christians, Hell is axiomatic, but it is not.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I am not impressed. You left out one important Greek-speaking Church Father, Paul. Paul never used the word Hell, and for all the insertion of the word into the KJV, "hell" does not appear in his epistles. On the other hand, Paul did write this, in II Thessalonians, chapter 2: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" Could the strong delusion and lie be the Hell theology? Given what you have posted, yes, I think it could be.
 
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Light of the East

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There are a few people who live without God in their life.
But I wonder if King David was referring to the reality
of Hell rather than God keeping him company, ie playing
rounds of pinochle, in the lake of fire.

No one lives without God in their life. Without Him, you wouldn't take the next breath or have the next heartbeat. They may ignore, insult, and turn from Him all they want, but He is right there, closer than their own skin.
 
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Light of the East

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Here's what I was wondering after I read all those quotes. Do they read that way in the original Greek of the Early Fathers, or are we reading some sort of skewed Greek to Latin translation. We know that the Latin Church Fathers were notoriously bad at translating the Greek, which makes me ask this question.

Maybe they read what Chrysostom wrote and translated it as "hell" when Chrysostom used the word for grave in his speech.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Yes, just as I charge the KJV translators! Isn't it odd that our esteemed member, who prides himself on his Greek scholarship, offers us the early Church Fathers in only the English translation? At the same time, he omits the most important early Church Fathers, the writers of the New Testament. Some of us do see through that trickery.
 
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SkyWriting

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No one lives without God in their life. Without Him, you wouldn't take the next breath or have the next heartbeat. They may ignore, insult, and turn from Him all they want, but He is right there, closer than their own skin.

So He is with you in Hell as well. Doesn't sound
too bad then in your version. Knowing God is there
I have a pretty high pain tolerance.
 
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JacksBratt

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So, Christ taught that He was saving us 1/ from our sins and 2/ From death.

Since I will die some day as everyone on earth will, how is Christ saving us from "death" if it is not a second death?

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Since the bible is God breathed and a solid source of what God is telling us. This death that Christ is saving us from is easily seen as an eternal punishment.

It may not be the Hell of the OT, but it is what we refer to as hell.
 
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JacksBratt

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Hell is here and now for me
I feel sorry for you if you feel like your life is hell. My life is no cake walk and I face difficulties every day. I would not call it hell. I would call it "life". I suffer less than others and more than others. I have faith that Christ will give me the strength to persevere day by day.
 
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Goatee

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Dont feel sorry for me..............ta
 
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JacksBratt

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I have done nothing of the sort. I have pointed out that what you are proposing is contrary to the very core of the word of God.

You have, yourself, openly criticized the KJV of the Bible. The KJV, which is the foundational version of the word of God, used by solid God fearing Christians, the world over.

If you are feeling like I am calling you a disciple of Satan, that's not me doing that.

As for your methodical, careful study of scripture. If it concludes that their is not a consequence, for rejecting Christ, after death, then you have been deceived. This is due to the fact that this would totally negate the need for Christ's death and resurrection.

Do you understand that. The whole purpose of the OT is preparation for the coming messiah. If there is no need for salvation, no hell, no eternal punishment, then there is no need for Christ.

That is a lie of Satan.
 
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Der Alte

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I am not impressed. You left out one important Greek-speaking Church Father, Paul. Paul never used the word Hell, and for all the insertion of the word into the KJV, "hell" does not appear in his epistles.
Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Let's just ignore the words of Jesus because "Paul never used the word Hell!"
.....Paul did say that none of these could inherit the kingdom of God;
the unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners, flesh and blood, envious, murders, drunkards, revellers, whoremongers, unclean persons, covetous men and idolaters.

Your suppositions about what is or is not a delusion have zero merit! I could use the same verse to accuse UR or CI of delusion. You have posted nothing which disproves my supposition.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Jesus the Christ is saving and going to save us from death - we certainly cannot save ourselves from it. Further, I believe He will eventually save those in the Second Death when Death (the last enemy) is defeated. The Lake of Fire, of necessity, must at that time give up the dead that are in it.

I checked your verse, Matthew 25:46 on Biblehub - the word rendered as "eternal" in the KJV is a Greek word transliterated as "aionion," and meaning "age-long." Eternity sets in at the events of I Corinthians 15.
 
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Lazarus Short

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The KJV is NOT a "foundational version" - that distinction belongs to the body of extant Old Testament and New Testament books in Hebrew and Greek, respectively. Remember, always, that you are reading an English translation of those foundational documents. Professional Bible scholars and theologians have also done their study, and some have come to conclusions such as these verses don't belong, Jesus didn't say that, etc. Where is the hue & cry for that? Maybe Hell is a more important idol than what these scholars want to remove in violation of God's command not to add or take away from, His Word. I have not added or taken away, just exposed the intrusion of pagan terms and concepts into the Holy Scriptures. Be aware that I have traced Hell back to Norse mythology.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I contend that Jesus never used the word "hell" either, but that too will be rubber-stamped "Argument from silence." You may as well stamp the whole Bible, for except for deliberate insertion, there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of a place called "Hell." Limbo has already bit the dust - tell me, did babies go there until the Pope decided they didn't? There is truth and there is religion. I choose Truth.

In fact, I agree with Paul that so-and-so wicked people (in this life) will not inherit the Kingdom. He tells us in I Corinthians 3:15 that they will suffer loss, and I think one of the things they will lose will be the right to inherit in the Kingdom. They will still go on to age-long life then, or later.

You also, have posted nothing which disproves my "supposition." These things are spiritually discerned, yet you do not see them...?
 
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