He probably does not want to go through His creation
ever being disobedient again. What does seem to me odd though is
the lake of fire will exist with occupants before the 1000 years start, so
why do people still sin after that point? The devil will have been bound.
People will still have freewill to choose doing right things.
Jesus said that the everlasting fire was "prepared."
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Daniel9v9 Am I right to understand that the sum of your conviction is based on the idea of a first resurrection where Christ in body rules for a 1000 literal years on earth (Millennium), and all, even those who rejected Christ, have a chance to repent at that time? Can they sin in those days? Can they still reject Christ? If they can't reject Christ in those days, but are indeed saved, that amounts to the same as salvation outside Jesus Christ.
Laz: Those who have rejected Christ will not be resurrected until the 1000 years are ended, IMHO. Can they sin? Rev. 22:15 mentions bad people (dogs) outside the Holy City, but I'm not sure exactly why they are there or at what time, except that it is after the City has come down. These people obviously reject Christ as well, but the bulk of humanity (again, IMHO) is still dead, awaiting the GWTJ. If in fact, the Lake of Fire (compare with the Temple's Brazen Sea) is for refining/purification/salvation, then their salvation does not occur outside the ministry of the Christ.
Daniel9v9 Just as gentle disclaimer, it's certainly not my intention to put words in your mouth, but if this is how you see it, then this view is also unorthodox and problematic with regards to the gospel and what has been revealed to us about God's kingdom and His righteousness - as they have been made known to us through our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles.
Laz: I see where you are coming from, but my digging into the KJV and realizing the inserted trickery (again, God bless center-column references!), I began to see thing differently. Hints turned into questions, questions impelled answers, and I began to connect the dots (something I'm very good at) in ways that were consistent, but not always in line with official Theology and/or Orthodoxy. You see, it became more and more obvious to me that the Hell theology could not be part of the Gospel, if the Gospel was really Good News. I saw how neutral words were weaponized (to use current jargon), such as "judgment" being turned into "condemnation" or "damnation"; "zeal" turned into "wrath," and the like. I saw clearly how the Holy and Good Creator was made up to be a God of wrath and torture and damnation. Toward the end of my search, I finally found the source of Hell in our English Bibles - in Norse mythology, there is the "goddess" Hel and her realm, Helheim (House of Hel). I also found analogues to "Hell" in several ancient languages of northern Europe, from the days when they were all pagans.
Now if this is problematic to you, all I can say from my POV is that it is all coming together in a consistent way. I have a growing vision of a Good News Gospel, the revelation of a Good and Holy Creator, and His Son Jesus, our Righteousness. I see His parables, such as the 99 sheep + 1 lost sheep in a whole new light. I identify with Jesus, knowing that He was also not in line with the man-approved Theology and Orthodoxy of His day. I hope this rambling discourse answers your question - it's not easy, as we are not on the same page yet, but we will be.
Daniel9v9 Also, I'm curious to how you solve my previous problem: Why do you believe that those who reject Christ are saved when God didn't even spare the angels who abused their free will? Do you think Satan will be saved? Scriptures teach us otherwise. See 2 Peter 2
Laz: I can only answer that we are of much more value than the angels, as we were made in the image of God. We get to judge angels, so "didn't even spare" is not quite on track. Satan saved? We are not told, so speculation is not very useful. I re-read II Peter 2, and it's a matter of interpretation - unlike the damnationist, I believe that God burns away the dross and saves the person, not burns the person in Hellfire forever.
Daniel9v9 Finally, I want to explain the verses you point to in OP in their context:
Leviticus 25:8-13 - In light of the New Testament, we can know that Jesus is the Sabbath rest for Christians. Matthew 12:8 Matthew 11:28 Hebrews 4
Isaiah 1:18 - In light of the New Testament, we know that this too refers to the washing of sins through Christ Jesus. Revelation 7:14 Titus 3:5 1 John 1:7 Titus 2:11-14 Acts 22:14-16 Hebrews 9:14 1 John 1:7
Romans 6:7 - This verse is real key in this particular argument, and I'd like to stress this: Though it reads "For one who has died has been set free from sin" it ONLY applies to people who have died WITH and INTO Christ. In fact, before and after it clearly says:
"For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." Romans 6:5-11
So, we can NOT read these verses to include people who in their sin and rebellion reject Christ.
Laz: You are probably correct here. I recall Jesus telling the Pharisees that they risked dying in their sins, so that implies they would be resurrected in their sins and then probably be tossed into the LoF. They will suffer loss, but yet be saved when Death is destroyed (the last Enemy) and the LoF will give up its dead just as the literal sea had done so long before.
That is very good advice. Surprisingly we often wonder why those posting here apparently don't follow it.Put short, I would be very careful to hinge any opportunity for salvation outside the Gospel on an idea that is a modern interpretation of the end times, lest we born speculation out of speculation.
I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions:
Say what you will about hell, the point is this: Heaven is good, hell is bad; Life is good death is bad, G-ds commandments are good, braking the commandments is bad,Ignorance can be bliss, but temporary arrangements come to an end, and righteousness is good, but sin is bad.
Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Mar 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Without fear of retribution, there is no need of obedience, unless you are perfect in the love of G-d. But children have to start somewhere, usually experiencing the difference between good and evil, and experiencing the rewards of both.
A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS
1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”
2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.
3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.
4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.
5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.
6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.
7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.
8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.
9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.
11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.
12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.
13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.
14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.
15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…
17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.
18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.
19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.
20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.
21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.
22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.
23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.
24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.
I've never been to a damnationist church. I imaging it would have a sign like this one:I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions:
Lazarus Short said: ↑
Daniel9v9 Am I right to understand that the sum of your conviction is based on the idea of a first resurrection where Christ in body rules for a 1000 literal years on earth (Millennium), and all, even those who rejected Christ, have a chance to repent at that time? Can they sin in those days? Can they still reject Christ? If they can't reject Christ in those days, but are indeed saved, that amounts to the same as salvation outside Jesus Christ.
Daniel9v9 said: ↑
Put short, I would be very careful to hinge any opportunity for salvation outside the Gospel on an idea that is a modern interpretation of the end times, lest we born speculation out of speculation.
Very informative.........Thanks for that......That is very good advice. Surprisingly we often wonder why those posting here apparently don't follow it.
(The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book
House, 1950, p. 96.)
German theologian - Philip Schaff writes :“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.”
One of the best clues to early Christian theology is in artwork discovered at the Catacombs in Rome . Graves of common people were adorned with drawings of Jesus as the Good Shepherd - beardless and virtually indistinguishable from the Greco-Roman savior figure Orpheus. Other popular images there were the Last Supper and the Magi at the birth of Jesus. Occasionally in early Christian art, Jesus is shown working miracles using a magic wand! Significantly, the crucifix is noticeably absent from early art, as is any depiction of judgment scenes or Hell.
Dr. Ken Vincent;
"As we move into the middle of the 2 nd Century, a shift takes place from writing works considered "Holy Scripture" to interpretations of it. The first writer on the theology on Christian Universalism whose works survive is St. Clement of Alexandria (150 - 215CE). He was the head of the theology school at Alexandria which, until it closed at the end of the 4 th Century, was a bastion of Universalist thought. His pupil, Origen (185 - 254 CE), wrote the first complete presentation of Christianity as a system, and Universalism was at its core. Origen was the first to produce a parallel Old Testament that included Hebrew, a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew, the Septuagint, and three other Greek translations. He was also the first to recognize that some parts of the Bible should be taken literally and others metaphorically. He wrote a defense of Christianity in response to a pagan writer's denigration of it. Prior to the Roman Catholic Church's condemnation of all of Universalist thought in the 6 th Century, Church authority had already reached back in time to pick out several of Origen's ideas they deemed unacceptable. Finally, he was condemned by the Church because his concept of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not agree with the "official" Doctrine of the Trinity formulated a century after his death! After the 6 th Century, much of his work was destroyed; fortunately, some of it survived."
I like the Hebrew.Welcome to the world of Hebraic logic; used all thru the bible.
It does not fit western logic. Never did, never will.
And that is a GOOD thing.
http://www.thelogician.net/3_judaic_logic/3_chapter_02.htm
BLOCK LOGIC (An Introduction to Hebrew Thought) - Sermon Index
http://www.hoshanarabbah.org/pdfs/heb_grk.pdf
...
1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. ...
<KA>The bible canon has had several books removed by humans that believed those books are uninspired, and/or unimportant to other human's spiritual growth and relationship with the Most High God.● ● ●
A lot of theories and opinions but zero scriptures, historical or ecumenical facts.● ● ●
Bible also doesn’t speak of cars and computers, and yet they exist. That Bible doesn’t mention everything doesn’t mean that nothing else can be.
Bible speaks of “hell”, that is why I believe it exists.
Bible also doesn’t speak of cars and computers, and yet they exist. That Bible doesn’t mention everything doesn’t mean that nothing else can be.
Bible speaks of “hell”, that is why I believe it exists.
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means."
<KA>The bible canon has had several books removed by humans that believed those books are uninspired, and/or unimportant to other human's spiritual growth and relationship with the Most High God.
This is not controversy; it is historical and ecumenical fact.
With that said, you may want to look everywhere to ascertain the validity of Hell. In fact, you may want to look everywhere to ascertain that the pedestrian and religious definition of Hell is legitimate - considering what the Most High God has said. Some of us have, (un)fortunately, had experiences with elements of the Hell dimension to let us know that the location is very real, and is not somewhere anyone wants to be (despite the fact the Word of God Himself said that many will fall by the wayside.)
There is already an "election," and everything that will happen has already happened. So, it truly is a "gift" to receive the Spirit and be saved, because it shows who we are as well - that we have always been His.
In my opinion, there exists a Hell - it is a place of refinement that is separate from the Father. The analogy of the foundry (fire) is to show that impurities must be "burned" out in order to make the ore "pure". However, someone that is wicked has deep-rooted, voluminous impurities - that require long times to burn out. If you are all impurities (reprobate), then you will "burn forever" by consequence of your iniquity. The goal of Hell is to refine impure spirits, or to put them in a place where their impurities cannot dope other pure substances. It is a mercy to both the righteous and the wicked.<KA>
A lot of theories and opinions but zero scriptures, historical or ecumenical facts.
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