hell from scripture

[AnimateDream]

One of the things that's always bugged me is the mainstream notions of heaven and hell. Things like the circles of hell and the orders of angels. They seem almost completely derived from milton's "paradise lost" and "dante's inferno" and his the divine comedy or something like that. I'm to clear on the specifics of such ancient works of literature. I was wondering if anyone could help me find actual scriptural mentioning of such things. All I remember seeing in the bible included few details as to the nature, purpose, history or really any details at all of such things.

 

[DanteRisen]

mainstream notions of heaven and hell.

That's all they are, mainstream. I found two descriptions of hell in the NT. In Jesus' tale of the rich man and Lazarus, he describes the rich man in hell and being in torment and "agony in this fire." But 2 Peter 2:4, Peter talks of the Angels that sinned and had sided with Satan having been sealed in gloomy dungeons for judgement.

I think what true hell is, is when those that have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior are in the end ultimately destroyed. It talks repeatedly of eternal hell and that's what you always hear the "bible-thumpers" calling out. But I believe that at the final judgement that those who are not in the Book, will be put into the fires and destroyed, much as Jesus spoke once of God thowing the birds into the fire once they are gone. If our souls were to reside eternally in hell, why would He put his lesser creatures who do not have a choice. Once a soul is given over to the fires, it is gone. The true definition of Hell is out of the sight of the Lord. So if you are gone, He can't see anymore.
I think I have rambled long enough.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

First off, Orders of Angels come much earlier than those works. In fact, a lot of angeology was in place before Christ!

Second, in regards to Heaven and Hell, the mainstream notions are very new. Whether it be the common fire and brimstone, annihilationism, or universalism, these are were not accepted in the early Church.

As for what Heaven and Hell really are: experiences of God. Those who love God experience Heaven, those who hate God experience Hell. Both Heaven and Hell are experiences of God's love: one as the River of Life, one as the River of Fire. The same Fire that purifies the righteous burns the evil.

 

[Sketcher]

The Bible doesn't include a lot of details, it only tells us what we need to know: hell is a nasty place, and it is forever. So you don't want to go there. Satan and his demons do not torture you in hell - they are recieving a worse punishment than you are. This doesn't make hell any nicer, though.

 

[holo]

Sorry I can't give much of an answer to the OP, but I think like this: God is fair. You either accept mercy or you get what you deserve. How and where hell is, isn't too important IMO.

 

[DanteRisen]

First off, Orders of Angels come much earlier than those works. In fact, a lot of angeology was in place before Christ!

Not true... John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

Since the Word is Jesus, and "the Word was God," if Angels came before Christ then you are saying the Angels begot God.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Not true... John 1:1-2 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

Since the Word is Jesus, and "the Word was God," if Angels came before Christ then you are saying the Angels begot God.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Before Christ as in BC, such as OT times. I in no way want to imply that angels came before God

 

[DanteRisen]

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Before Christ as in BC, such as OT times. I in no way want to imply that angels came before God

Ahh, easy misunderstanding. I see now.

 

[St. Worm2]

That's all they are, mainstream. I found two descriptions of hell in the NT. In Jesus' tale of the rich man and Lazarus, he describes the rich man in hell and being in torment and "agony in this fire." But 2 Peter 2:4, Peter talks of the Angels that sinned and had sided with Satan having been sealed in gloomy dungeons for judgement.

I think what true hell is, is when those that have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior are in the end ultimately destroyed. It talks repeatedly of eternal hell and that's what you always hear the "bible-thumpers" calling out. But I believe that at the final judgement that those who are not in the Book, will be put into the fires and destroyed, much as Jesus spoke once of God thowing the birds into the fire once they are gone. If our souls were to reside eternally in hell, why would He put his lesser creatures who do not have a choice. Once a soul is given over to the fires, it is gone. The true definition of Hell is out of the sight of the Lord. So if you are gone, He can't see anymore.
I think I have rambled long enough.

Hey Dante, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. First off, where can I find the verse or passage where Jesus is speaking about His Father "throwing the birds into the fire once they are gone". I looked at both a topical index and a concordance and was unable to find anything like that in the Gospels (though I am pretty tired right now and could have missed it I guess).

Also, you talk of the "Bible-Thumpers" doing their 'thumping' thing about "eternal Hell", a subject that you correctly state the Bible talks about "repeatedly". How then, knowing this, do you justify and *BIBLICALLY* support your view that the reprobate will be destroyed (or "Annihilated") rather than eternally punished (as the Bible seems to clearly indicate)?

Finally, how can the "true definition of Hell" be "out of the sight of the Lord"? Does God somehow lose His ubiquitous attribute of omnipresence at the end of the Age? And, if you are right about this, what does one do with Scriptures such as these?

"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there" (Psalm 139:7-8)

"Sheol and Abaddon lie open before the Lord, how much more the hearts of men" (Proverbs 15:11)

Thanks for your help!

Yours and His,
David

 

[ertsky]

sheol = the grave
hades = the grave, the unseen or imperceptible
gehenna = valley of hinnom, a garbage dump.
lake of fire = symbolic figure of "our God is a consuming fire" "terror of the Lord" and "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

so we see that none of hebrew and greek words translated hell in the english bible translations speak of a place of eternal torture of all non born-again christians.

judgement yes purifying spiritual fire yes these can be supported from scripture but eternal torture of all non born-again christians is non scriptural, unscriptural even anti-scriptural and causes great damage to many people seeking to serve God, may He set them free from fear and despair over the plight of lost loved ones.

and may we all repent of unscriptural traditions of man which insult our God

for He is good His mercy endures forever

Amen

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

so we see that none of hebrew and greek words translated hell in the english bible translations speak of a place of eternal torture of all non born-again christians.

judgement yes purifying spiritual fire yes these can be supported from scripture but eternal torture of all non born-again christians is non scriptural, unscriptural even anti-scriptural and causes great damage to many people seeking to serve God, may He set them free from fear and despair over the plight of lost loved ones.

"Born again Christians" and "getting saved" are modern inventions.

They choose to suffer. God can only provide the purifying fire, we choose whether to be purifyed or just keep burning.

 

[AvgJoe]

sheol = the grave
hades = the grave, the unseen or imperceptible
gehenna = valley of hinnom, a garbage dump.
lake of fire = symbolic figure of "our God is a consuming fire" "terror of the Lord" and "it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"

Why not give the whole meaning of each word?

sheol: hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

hades: properly unseen, that is, "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

Sheol & Hades is the same word. Sheol is Hebrew and Hades is Greek.

gehenna: Of Hebrew origin; valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

Gehenna is the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the final destination of death, hell and everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life (Revelation 11:15).

Tartaros: (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

so we see that none of hebrew and greek words translated hell in the english bible translations speak of a place of eternal torture of all non born-again christians.

Just like English words, Greek & Hebrew words can have more than one meaning, depending on the use and context of the word. So we see that partial word definitions can be given in order to validate unscriptural views of hell, eternal punishment or any other subject.

 

[Adoniram]

"Born again Christians" and "getting saved" are modern inventions.

What? I don't know how you can say that.

Jesus said to Nicodemus (John 3:3): "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he canot see the kingdom of God."

Paul and Silas, in jail when an earthquake occurred, responded to the jailor who asked "What must I do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:30-31)

May I respectfully suggest that you get your facts straight before you start giving advice to those who are seeking the truth.

 

[DanteRisen]

Hey Dante, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. First off, where can I find the verse or passage where Jesus is speaking about His Father "throwing the birds into the fire once they are gone". I looked at both a topical index and a concordance and was unable to find anything like that in the Gospels (though I am pretty tired right now and could have missed it I guess).

Also, you talk of the "Bible-Thumpers" doing their 'thumping' thing about "eternal Hell", a subject that you correctly state the Bible talks about "repeatedly". How then, knowing this, do you justify and *BIBLICALLY* support your view that the reprobate will be destroyed (or "Annihilated") rather than eternally punished (as the Bible seems to clearly indicate)?

Finally, how can the "true definition of Hell" be "out of the sight of the Lord"? Does God somehow lose His ubiquitous attribute of omnipresence at the end of the Age? And, if you are right about this, what does one do with Scriptures such as these?



Thanks for your help!

Yours and His,
David

I may have mispoken about the birds, I had it in the back of my mind and thought I remembered it something similar to Matthew and us being worth more than the sparrows and for some reason thought I remembered it saying to the affect of '...while they are thrown into the fire.' I have no idea where I got it, I was obviously wrong.

Now as to "eternal Hell," first of, God is a loving God and wouldn't make you suffer in that way for all eternity. It would be more acceptable for Him if you felt nothing at all AFTER the final judgement. I am not saying they wouldn't suffer in hell up to the final judgement, but the verses I have found to back up my reasons for the ultimate destruction are as follows:

Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Revelations 20:14 "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

As humans, and God's creation, we are both body and soul. If the body is destroyed, as it is at the moment of death, all that is left is the soul. For a second death, or to destroy the soul, is to leave nothing. We are gone forever.

 

[Adoniram]

To those who speak of a consuming fire suggesting that the punishment of the unbeliever is not an eternal torment for them, may I remind you of two cases in the OT of fire not consuming what was burning. First, the burning bush, from which the angel of the Lord spoke to Moses (Ex. 3:2). Second, the time when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were cast into the fiery furnace and were seen to be standing in the midst of the fire, alive and unburned, with the Son of God (Dan. 3:19-28).

Hell, Hades, whatever you want to call it, is a different place than the Lake of Fire. Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14).

Now consider, if the rich man in hell (Luke 16:19-31) was consumed by the flame which was tormenting him, how could he have called to Lazarus to cool his tongue? Yet, there he is carrying on a whole conversation. Jesus was describing a real and horrible place. Unbelievers do not pass into nonexistence when they die.

And in the end, when death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, all that are contained therein will be resurrected for judgement, and falling short, will suffer torment for eternity. Rev. 20:10-15

"10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Hell and the Lake of Fire are real places, not just something in the "mind of God." The Bible never says that death, first or second, is the end of the soul. Quite the contrary.

Jesus would not have willingly given his life to save us from some imaginary place. He gave his life to save those who will trust him from what he knows to be an eternal torment.

 

[ertsky]

it is not His torture that endures forever (tantamount to blasphemy)

it is His MERCY that endures forever!

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

AMEN!

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

one of these works of the devil that the Son of God was manifested to destroy is this hideous doctrine of demons that says God will torture people forever and ever! aaaargh!!!

may God deliver us from the traditions of men!

AMEN!

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

What? I don't know how you can say that.

Jesus said to Nicodemus (John 3:3): "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he canot see the kingdom of God."

Paul and Silas, in jail when an earthquake occurred, responded to the jailor who asked "What must I do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:30-31)

May I respectfully suggest that you get your facts straight before you start giving advice to those who are seeking the truth.

I didn't say you can't pull scriptures out to support them, I said they're modern terminologies and inventions. Search old writings for "born-again Christians". "Sorry, there are 0 results to display"

Also, as for getting saved, the early Church viewed this as a process, and not an event.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

ertsky, God does not torture sinners. They are in charge of their torture, so to speak. They have control over what they feel, yet they choose to feel pain. God is not evil because He doesn't torture them, this is a misonception. It is they who torture themselves: it is not that God won't release them, they will not release themselves!

 

[ertsky]

The following is a cut and paste from a website

Anonymous
Re: sick concepts
Sat May 20 00:48:18 2000

"If eternal torment {hell} were true, then would abortion be a righteous act?

'Such a horrible thing as being burned alive forever would be on nearly every page of the Bible, you would not have to tear out a few verses and try to make them fit the teaching that God will burn people alive forever.'

Matthew 11:20-24 says:
20 Then began He to upbraid the towns where most of His mighty works had been done--because they had not repented.

21 "Alas for thee, Chorazin!" He cried. "Alas for thee, Bethsaida! For had the mighty works been done in Tyre and Sidon which have been done in both of you, they would long ere now have repented, covered with sackcloth and ashes.
22 Only I tell you that it will be more endurable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of Judgement than for you.

23 And thou, Capernaum, shalt thou be exalted even to Heaven? Even to Hades shalt thou descend. For had the mighty works been done in Sodom which have been done in thee, it would have remained until now.
24 Only I tell you all, that it will be more endurable for the land of Sodom on the day of Judgement than for thee."

Here Jesus says that if the people of Tyre and Sidon had seen the mighty works that He had done 'they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Since the residents of Tyre, and Sidon never received that which would cause them to repent, the mighty works that Jesus did, they will be given that which would cause them to repent. Many Christians believe our opportunity to respond to God's offer of salvation is limited to our mortal lifetime.

Since Jesus says that Tyre, and Sidon would have repented if they had seen His mighty works, we know that not everyone is given the circumstances that would bring them to repentance in their physical lifetime.

Do you think that God is a respector of persons in that He does not give everyone that needs it, the same proof for believing that He gave to Paul on the Damascus road or to Thomas who would not believe until he put his hands in the wounds?
All those people that 'would have repented' many consign to endless torment because God did not do that which was necessary to persuade them. Jesus said that they would have believed if they had seen the mighty works that Chorazin and Bethsaida had seen.
Those people did not get the same opportunity to believe.

When Jesus Christ was revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus, Paul believed.
When Thomas was told to put his hand in the side of Jesus Christ, he believed.
The truth will win out. Jesus Christ is the Truth, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world." {adapted message of jdwells}.
This may come as a shock to most Christians today, but universal salvation was a widespread view before the "Dark Ages". In fact, it may have been the majority view:

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge (1908) by Schaff-Herzog says in volume 12, on page 96, "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Thomas Allin quotes St. Basil the Great {c. 329-379}:
"The mass of men {i.e. of christians} say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." - Conc. xiv. De. fut. judic.

St. Jerome (342-420) made it clear that most persons understood scripture to teach the "the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures."

The last person I want to quote regarding what the average early Christian believed, is the very champion of the doctrine of "Eternal Torment" himself--Saint Augustine. He stands right next to Emperor Constantine as a key figure leading the church away from the original teachings of the Old and New Testaments. Augustine was in the Manichaean religion for nine years prior to becoming a Christian. This was an Eastern religion of fire worship. In this system, the universe would be divided forever between good and evil. His most famous writing was The City of God. Now listen to the champion of "Eternal Torment" regarding the view of Christian believers over this matter over four hundred years after Christ's resurrection: "There are very many (imo quam plurimi, can be translated majority) who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" (Enchiria, ad Laurent. c.29). "

The Ankerberg Theological Research Institute, of so-called 'orthodox' belief, said on their website:
"...opinion polls reveal that 70% of all clergy deny the doctrine of hell. Some highly respected evangelical scholars and educated laymen have also rejected the doctrine of hell. They teach that conditional immortality, annihilationism or Universalism are legitimate options for Christian belief..."

When a conditionalist text such as The Fire That Consumes is chosen as an alternate selection by the Evangelical Book Club and when, as some have claimed, "Over 50% of young evangelicals believe in Universalism and reject the doctrine of hell, we have to wonder."

Dr. J.I. Packer has noted that Universalism "has in this century quietly become part of the orthodoxy of many Christian thinkers and groups." D. B. Eller asserts in the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology that it is clear that "Universalism, in a variety of forms, continues to have appeal for contemporary faith, in both liberal and conservative circles." Theologian Steven Travis observes, "In recent years very few theologians have expounded and defended [the] traditional approach of eternal hell."

As Dr. Vernon Grounds once commented, "Seldom, I suppose, do we find ourselves brooding over the awesome doctrine of eternal punishment. Only on rarest occasions and then fleetingly is our mood that of Roden's famous statue, The Thinker, who sits in mute amazement watching lost souls enter hell. What William Gladstone wrote about eternal punishment in the late 19th century is equally true today: it 'seems to be relegated at present to the far off corners of the Christian mind, and there to sleep in deep shadow."

Richard J. Bauckham, lecturer in the history of Christian thought at the University of Manchester also points out the neglect of this doctrine when he writes, "... Since 1800 this situation has entirely changed, and no traditional doctrine has been so widely abandoned as that of eternal punishment. Its advocates among theologians today must be fewer than ever before.... Among the less conservative, universal salvation, either as hope or as dogma, is now so widely accepted that many theologians assume it virtually without argument."

===============================================
If He will torture billions forever, as many believe, why does Lam.3:31, KJV, say the Lord will not cast off forever? Compare verse 22.

Following is a list of some of the Scriptures used to support the view that all mankind will be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 God desires all to be saved &
Job 23:13 Does what His soul desires
Isa.46:10 Does all His desire
John 12:32 Will draw all to Himself
1 Timothy 2:6 Christ a Ransom for all {the testimony in its own eras},
John 4:42 Jesus is the Savior of the world
John 1:29 Lamb takes away sin of the world
1Jn.2:2 Atoning sacrifice for sins of whole world
Romans 5:18-19 By Adam all condemned, by Christ all to be justified
1 Corinthians 15:22 In Adam all die, "in Christ" all shall be made alive
Ephesians 1:10 All to be "in Christ" at the fullness of the eras
1 Corinthians 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be abolished
Philippians 2:10 Every tongue to confess Jesus is Lord
1 Corinthians 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
Philippians 2:11 Shall confess to the "glory" of God the "Father"
Philippians 2:9 Confess "in" the name of Jesus {the Lord saves} &
2Cor.5:17 Those "in" Christ are a new creation
Colossians 1:16,20 All to be reconciled unto God
Romans 11:32 God locks all in stubbornness to have mercy on all
Romans 11:36 All out of God, through Him, and into Him
II Corinthians 5:14-15 Jesus died for all
I Timothy 4:9-11 God is the Savior of all, especially
[not exclusively] of them that believe
Isa.45:23 Every knee shall bow to God
Isa.45:23 Every tongue shall confess to God
Isa.45:24 They will say, In the Lord alone are righteousness and strength.
Isa.45:25 In the Lord all Israel shall be justified
Mat.11:20-24 Men would have repented seeing miracles
Matt.1:21 Shall save His people {Israel, 2:6}from their sins
Lam.3:22 His compassions fail not
Mt.5:44 Love your enemies {Lk.6:27,35}
Rom.14:11 Every knee shall bow
Rom.14:11 Every tongue shall confess to God
1Cor.13:8 His love never fails
1 John 4:14 Jesus is the Savior of the world
1 Corinthians 15:28 God to be all in all

AMEN!

 

[ertsky]

some people read the following scripture

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

and even though it plainly declares God will have mercy not sacrifice they see no contradiction in saying God prefers everlasting (think of it) TORTURE to mercy.

that is plain blindness ! they know not what spirit they are of !

read these verses you who say God prefers eternal TORTURE to mercy.

Luk 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luk 9:52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

if you read those verses and still believe in eternal torture of unbelievers then
in the name of Jesus i beg you to repent of this madness, this foul doctrine of demons !

He who says that even though Jesus commands us to "love your enemies" (in the power of the Spirit of Christ within us as part of the new covenant), yet this person then turns and says that God will torture His enemies for an (think of it!) eternity, the person who holds this position is ignorantly or knowingly accusing Almighty and Holy God of hypocrisy !

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

as i grow in the image of Him who loved me and washed me from my sins in His own blood i am convinced by the Spirit of Christ who lives in me that this doctrine (eternal torture of unbelievers) is a lie.

i'm serious repent of this lie !