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Hell doesn't make sense to me.

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wblastyn

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Hell doesn't make sense to me, Jesus said we should forgive others even when they don't forgive us, but we have to ask God for forgiveness or be thrown into hell, seems a tad hypocritical.

Another thing, how can God expect unbelievers to believe in Christianity when there are thousands of other religions all claiming to be the "Truth". What makes Christianity any more real than all of those other religions? A muslem has just as much faith in Allah as a Christian has in Jesus.

Ok so Christians have their own personal experiences that allow them to believe in God but obviously unbelievers don't have that so why should they believe in God?

Hell doesn't seem fair on people who just can't believe in God.
 

ZiSunka

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Heaven is the place where you will constantly be in the presence of God. That is the definition of heaven. If you can't believe in God, why would you want to constantly be in his presence??

The answer to your question is: No one who has any trace of sin can be in the presence of God. The only way to get rid of all sin is through faith in God. If you can't believe in God, you won't have faith in Him, thus you can never be clean enough to be in his presence.

That's it. We are made holy by faith, and holiness is what gets you into heaven. Therefore, faith is essential to getting into heaven.
 
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wblastyn

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I know all that but how can you expect an unbeliever to believe that when they see no reason to believe in God? Or why should they chose Christianity over Wicca, etc. We may have personal experiences that tell us Christianity is true but what about people who never have those personal experiences?
 
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TCapp

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I guess my short answer is that Mohommad is still in the grave. Buddha is still in the grave. Dead Wiccans are still in the grave. So-and-so is still in the grave. Jesus, however, is not in the grave. (Yes, I realize you might say that it is only a myth or whatnot, but I'm only telling you my thoughts, here.) :)
 
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TheScottsMen

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The idea of a loving God sending people to hell for eternity is not easy to accept. Why would God, who is full of mercy and grace, send people to a place of torment for ever and ever for not trusting in Jesus even though they are nice people, or never heard of Jesus, or were sincerely trying to find God? Is that fair? Is that right?
When people ask these questions, they are appealing to what they perceive as fairness. They are looking at the issue from their human perspective. But this perspective is not necessarily the right one. If God exists, and He does, then it is He who is the One who says what is right and fair, not us. So, we need to see what the Bible says about what is right regarding sin and salvation and make a decision afterwards.
The Bible tells us that God is holy, "You shall be holy, for I am holy," (1 Pet. 1:16). Holiness is incorruptibility, perfection, purity, and the inability to sin, all of which which are possessed by God alone. Holiness is the very nature of God's character. His character is perfect, without flaw, and He is the standard of all that is right and good.
The Bible also says that God is infinite , "Great is our Lord, and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite," (Psalm 147:5). If God's understanding is infinite, then God is infinite in nature.
The Bible tells us that God is love. "And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him," (1 John 4:16). God cares about us and seeks our well being and security. His thoughts about us are infinite and His love is too. This is why God does not desire that anyone go to hell, but that all come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).
The Bible tells us that God is righteous. "God is a righteous judge," (Psalm 7:9). His righteousness is part of His character just as are mercy and love. Righteousness deals with justice and justice deals with the Law. This means that God will always do that which is right and He does so according to the righteous Law that He has set forth. God cannot do anything wrong. God must do that which is right, otherwise He would not be righteous.
Jesus said that "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks," (Matt. 12:34). So too with God. He speaks out of the abundance of His heart. God spoke the universe into existence, "Let their be light," (Gen. 1:3) and He also spoke forth the Law (Exodus 20 - the Ten Commandments, etc.). Therefore, the Law of God, is a reflection of God's character, because it comes out of what He is, holy, perfect, righteous, and good. Therefore, the Law is a standard of perfection. It is perfect and if we do not keep it perfectly, then we have offended the God who gave it; after all, it is a reflection of His character. To break God's Law is to offend (sin against) God. Since it is law, there is punishment because there is no Law that is a law without a punishment. This means that when we break the Law of God, we fall under the judgment of the Law of God. Since He is infinite, our offense against Him is takes on an infinite quality because we have offended an infinitely holy and righteous God.

Must God punish?

Yes, God must punish those who break His law because it is the right thing to do. Just as a parent should punish a child for doing something wrong (intentionally), so God must punish those who do wrong. You see, if God did not punish the person who does wrong, then He would be unjust and unrighteous. He would be breaking His own law -- which He cannot do. But, someone might say that the punishment of a parent on a child is temporary whereas God's punishment is eternal. Why the difference? The answer is two fold. First, God is infinite and a parent is not. Second, God is the standard of all righteousness and the parent is not.
Because God is infinite, when we sin, we are offending an infinite God. This is incredibly significant. The reason sin is so bad is not so much because of the one committing the sin, but because of the One who is offended. In other words, sin is so incredibly bad because it takes on a horrible quality by the very fact of who it is against: an infinitely pure, holy, and righteous God.
A parent is not the standard of righteousness. God is. A parent is (or should be) using the righteous standard of God in raising children. Therefore, though a parent's punishment is temporary because it is instruction and correction, the punishment of God is eternal because our sin is against an eternal God. There is a big difference.

Can we please God on our own?

Is it possible to earn one's place before God by what we do (being good, etc.)? Is it possible for a finite being to please an infinite one? If so, then that means a sinner who has offended an infinite God, is able please God by his efforts. But, if he is a sinner, then aren't those "good" things he does also touched by sin since they are motivated out of the heart of a sinner? Yes. This is what the Bible declares since it says that our hearts are deceitful and not to be trusted (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23).
But then someone might say that if the person is sincere when he does the good works, then that should be acceptable to God. But, saying it should be acceptable doesn't mean it is. Remember, according to the Bible we cannot trust our own hearts (Jer. 17:9). This means that we cannot even trust our own sincerity.
God is the judge, not us. If we could please God by our efforts or sincerity, then it would mean that a finite person can appease an infinite God by doing good works. It further means that sincerity becomes a meritorious condition of the heart. It would be like saying, "God, I am worthy to be with you because of the good works I have done and the good and sincere condition of my heart." Can any mortal who has fallen into sin ever do anything good enough to please an infinite God? The answer is no. Gal. 2:21 says, "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.” In other words, if we could get to heaven by what we do, then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross. Therefore, God has established that our works and sincerity cannot be good enough.
Finally, for those who still maintain that we can please God by our efforts, we must ask how many good works must he perform in order to undo an offense against an infinitely holy God? Is there a standard by which we can judge which sin requires how many goods works to cancel out? There is none. Therefore, he is left in a predicament. Since God must punish the sinner for offending Him (breaking His holy and righteous law), and our works cannot undo the offense against God, then how are we going to escape so great a righteous judgment?

The way of escape

The only way to escape the righteous judgment of God is to trust in the provision He has made. This provision is found in Jesus. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life," (John 3:16). Jesus is the only way to salvation (John 14:6). Jesus is also God in flesh (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9). Therefore, Jesus' life is of infinite value. This means that His sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse you of your sins. It is capable of satisfying the infinitely righteous standard of God that is required to match His infinite holiness.
Jesus' sacrifice is the only provision acceptable to God the Father. If you want to escape the eternal judgment of God, you must put your trust in Jesus and what He did on the cross and in nothing else. Without Him, there is no hope of escape on the Day of Judgment. How do you do this? You receive Jesus (John 1:12). You trust in Him alone. You can ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins (John 14:14). Trust Him alone.
(CARM - http://www.carm.org/evidence/sendtohell.htm)
 
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Crusadar

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wblastyn said:
Hell doesn't seem fair on people who just can't believe in God.

It won't surprise me if you also doubt the existence of hell, since you believe not in what God tells you but only what you choose to believe about Him and since you are convinced that God did not create the world as He has told us why stop there? why not say that hell is also only allegorical?
 
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ZiSunka

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wblastyn said:
I know all that but how can you expect an unbeliever to believe that when they see no reason to believe in God? Or why should they chose Christianity over Wicca, etc. We may have personal experiences that tell us Christianity is true but what about people who never have those personal experiences?

It's their choice. God doesn't intercept people's freewill choices.

It wasn't experiences that convinced me that Christ is the only way. It was deuctive reasoning, faith, hearing the word and the testimonies of others than led me to faith in the Lord.

That's why Christians have a responsibility to get the word out, so that others can hear and believe.

Also, God can be experienced through the glory of nature. There is no excuse for following other gods, or choosing to believe in no god at all.

People choose hell, it isn't thrust upon them unwilling.
 
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Yitzchak

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As long as the focus is on fairness, it will be difficult to understand. The gospel is based on mercy not on fairness. There is a parable in matthew 20 which explores this concept. The workers who got what they bargained for were angry that the employer gave extra to some.
If we "bargain" with God for fairness, we will certainly come out without enough bargaining power to gain entrance to heaven. Don't let anyone fool you with silly pride. The only access to heaven is thru the mercy of God. Christians are not saved because we earned it or we are so smart or have some special formula. We asked for God's mercy and found it in Jesus.
Whether a person is christian, jewish, muslim or whatever, they will all have to face giving an account someday to God.
My advice is to pursue mercy not fairness. Ask god for a covering for your sins. In this regard, you will find Jesus provides mercy and forgiveness.
 
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wblastyn

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Crusadar said:
It won't surprise me if you also doubt the existence of hell, since you believe not in what God tells you but only what you choose to believe about Him and since you are convinced that God did not create the world as He has told us why stop there? why not say that hell is also only allegorical?
Thankyou for taking the time out of your busy life to reply to my thread. :hug:

Thankyou to everyone else who replied too. :hug:
 
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wblastyn

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I don't know, I mean, no one asked to be born into a sinful nature, then we're expected to fix it by returning to God, despite the fact that I had absolutely no choice in turning away from Him in the first place.

I don't mean to sound offensive or anything but we're supposed to love God and be grateful that he saved us, that's great. However, the only reason He is saving us is because of some rule He made up that meant we are born into sin, if He's omnipotent then why couldn't He just zap away our sin nature so no one was born into sin. If no one is born into sin then they won't reject God or be sent to Hell, which is what God wants in the first place, yet he wants us to chose Him or go to hell. I'm sure everyone would chose God over hell but first they actually have to believe He exists, how can you just expect someone to believe in God when they see no evidence for Him?
 
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wblastyn

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lambslove said:
Ask yourself what heaven would be like if God let non-Christians in.

It would be just like earth is now. The sinning, the fighting, the prejudices, and all the bad stuff. It wouldn't be heavenly at all, it would just be earth in a different location.
But Christians can be like that too.

Maybe it's my depression talking but I think I would rather not exist than life forever :(
 
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AJ88

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Hi there wblastyn,

You said,
" I mean, no one asked to be born into a sinful nature, then we're expected to fix it by returning to God, despite the fact that I had absolutely no choice in turning
away from Him in the first place.
I don't mean to sound offensive or anything but we're supposed to love God and be grateful that he saved us, that's great.
However, the only reason He is saving us is because of some rule He made up that meant we are born into sin, if He's omnipotent then why couldn't He just zap
away our sin nature so no one was born into sin. If no one is born into sin then they won't reject God or be sent to Hell, which is what God wants in the first place,
yet he wants us to chose Him or go to hell.
I'm sure everyone would chose God over hell but first they actually have to believe He exists, how can you just expect someone to believe in God when they see no
evidence for Him?"

.
.
AJ says,
I understand your concern......it's the exact same things, I had considered for over 50 years myself.
I attended church since a baby, went to a Bible College, taught Sunday school for years, taught other classes also, and am presently ministering weekly to inmates in a prison ministry..........yet I wrestled with those same thoughts.

The established churche tells me, that the 'lost' must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ during this lifetime, or else they’ll be ****** for eternity.
But I am left with a question that none of them can satisfactory answer.........and that is how can the masses (billions) of humanity have that relationship with the Savior - if they've never in their lifetime, heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

It's been estimated that between 90 and 120 billion people have lived or are living on this earth.......so then,
just how many of them, have actually heard the Gospel message
How many have had a good,
full and complete,
clear gospel message presented unto them,
about the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ?
Remember now, to be honest, we must include those who have lived from Adam until today.


And yet so many of our wonderful brother and sister in the Lord, want to eternally **** all these billions of people?…….Oh My!

I wonder how they would feel if they had been born in Iran?........and actually be one of these people that they so easily discards as rubbish.


O.K. dear brother and sisters, may I make this very personal?
- Lets say, you had the unfortunate circumstances of being born in the country of Iran.
-Lets say, you....like millions of your fellowmen, were constantly being told........ that the Christian God is utterly false.
-Lets say, that all you heard...... all your life, from your mom and dad, plus from the leaders of Iran, that the religion of Christianity is the Great Satan.
-Lets say, that you and millions,......probably billions of your fellow countrymen, never one time, hear of the true gospel of Jesus Christ........not even once in your entire lifetime.

Now you are born in a lost condition,… RIGHT?
You live your entire life as a lost person,…. RIGHT?
Then die as lost,…. RIGHT?

So at some point in the future, you'll be resurrected to stand before the great judge of all the earth.
Well now,......... according to the Christian religion of many folks here in the west,......God will look in the book of life,..........and horror of horrors........your name is NOT there.

And now according to the teaching of many Christians...........God has no choice but to **** you,...... to SEND you off to a boiling hot lake of fire, to be tormented and tortured, FOREVER and EVER and EVER.

So now, dear brother and sisters........just how would you feel about that.......if that really did happen to you?

.
After all, you were never ASKED or given a CHOICE:

- to be conceived or created in the first place......
- if you would want to be born at all......
- as to whom your parents might be....
- as to where to might live.….
- to have a body of flesh and blood.......
- about your physical characteristics and even what sex to be.....
- about one’s genetic composition…..
- about eye color, hair color, skin color, body type, level of intelligence…..
- about birth defects, mental illness, or retardation....
- to have "inherited" a weak and fallen nature of sin.......
- to be condemned by sin, from birth......
- to be bound onto disobedience......
- to be made sinners, ---- because, the angels were not......
- to be under the penalty of death, from the very beginning of their life.......
- to be made, - liken unto sheep, constantly going astray.......
- to be made an enemy of God, from your birth......
- to be bound in stubbornness.......
- to be tested by evil spirits.......
- to be enticed with numerous temptations.......
- for the many trials to tests you……
- to live under a curse of sickness and sin.......
- for a life of pain, sorrows, troubles and tears.......
- for life on this earth at all.......
- No one was ever asked ahead of time to be born, brought up and live in the kingdom of darkness.......

Therefore, again I ask....... just how would you feel about that.......if you really were ****** for all eternity, through virtually no fault of your own?


On top of that :
Why is it that God be invisible to man?
Why does He remain under a veil?

And furthermore:
Every unregenerate person is a sinner (Rom. 3:23),
dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
possessing a deceitful heart (Jer. 17:9),
is full of evi (Mark 7:21-23),
unable to understand spiritual truth (1 Cor. 2:14),
does not seek for God (Rom. 3:11),
is a slave to his own sin nature (Rom. 6:14-20),
is hostile in mind and deed to God (Col. 1:21),
and naturally and rightfully are objects of God's wrath (Eph. 2:3).

And Finally:
Because of their sinful condition (Rom. 6:14-20),
The unregenerate do not and cannot freely choose to believe the gospel (Rom.3:10-12; Rom. 6:14-20)
And that they cannot come to God unless it has been granted to them from the Father (John 6:65)
It is God alone who appoints them to eternal life (Acts 13:48 )
A God alone grants that they believe (Phil.1:29).


So why, is MANKIND being told by PREACHERS that those who die as ‘the lost’, that they will be held ACCOUNTABLE for their SINS, when they RECEIVED against their WILL, not by their CHOOSING, an INHERITED SIN NATURE from the first MAN ADAM?

------------------

A couple weeks ago I was visiting my brother in another state……he is a leader in the fellowship that he attends.

His church is strong on denouncing the lost that die as ****** forever and ever…….so I asked him…….about how he’d feel if he had been born in Iran and died as lost.

He assured me that he would have to leave THAT in the hands of the merciful God,…….so then I asked him, why is it, nearly every time I visit him, I have to listen to a hellfire sermon?

Why does HE expect and hope for mercy from a merciful God if he died as lost…….yet that church, will not show that same kind of mercy to the billions that die in the very same condition.

Again he had no answer.

.
 
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wblastyn

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That was great, thanks!

That was exactly the point I was trying to make, how can God expect anyone to believe Christianity is any more true than all the other religions out there when He hardly ever provides evidence for His existance.

The person in Iran for instance would grow up thinking Islam is the true religion and all others are of Satan, which is exactly what Christians believe - they are the True religion and all others are from Satan. How is the Muslem supposed to know that Christianity is the truth, or on the other hand maybe Islam is the true religion, so how is the Christian supposed to know if Christianity is false.
 
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ElElohe

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TheScottsMen said:
The idea of a loving God sending people to hell for eternity is not easy to accept. Why would God, who is full of mercy and grace, send people to a place of torment for ever and ever for not trusting in Jesus even though they are nice people, or never heard of Jesus, or were sincerely trying . . .


Thank You!


I would add that the word of the day for this thread is Justice. God is Just, and must be.
 
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ElElohe

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AJ88 said:
The established churche tells me, that the 'lost' must have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ during this lifetime, or else they’ll be ****** for eternity.
But I am left with a question that none of them can satisfactory answer.........and that is how can the masses (billions) of humanity have that relationship with the Savior - if they've never in their lifetime, heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

.

See: Missions

See: Unreached People Groups (cproject.com)

See: Matt 24:14, Malachi 1:11 and you can ref. from there . . .

Get Involved! We are part of the fulfillment of the great commission. God does not want anyone to perish, even the wicked (I Peter 3:9).
 
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Crusadar

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blasty,

Do you doubt the justice of God? You have doubted Him enough in other matters are you simply being consistent now by doubting His wisdom?

Have you not read:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;" Romans 2:12-15

We are not condemned by God for what we do not know and do not do. We are condemned only for what we do know and do not do. Those who are aware of God's laws will be judged by them and yet of those who have never heard of Christ or seen a Bible - they still have a conscience that tells them what is right or wrong and will be judged accordingly. We question God's methods simply because of our false sense of fairness when we even violate our own standards, how much more difficult then it is to keep the standards of an infinitely holy God? Just be glad that we have been justified by Christ and will be spared from condemnation even when we fall short of God's laws.
 
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wblastyn

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TheScottsMen said:
The idea of a loving God sending people to hell for eternity is not easy to accept. Why would God, who is full of mercy and grace, send people to a place of torment for ever and ever for not (CARM - http://www.carm.org/evidence/sendtohell.htm)
Thankyou for that too, but it still doesn't explain how people who are born in Muslem countries are supposed to believe Christianity.
 
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wblastyn

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Crusadar said:
blasty,

Do you doubt the justice of God? You have doubted Him enough in other matters are you simply being consistent now by doubting His wisdom?
You're attempting to pull me into a flame war, but I won't let you, so instead I'll give you a :hug:

Have you not read:
Yes I have read it but it doesn't address why anyone who is non-Christian should think Christianity is any more true than all the other religions out there. Christians think other religions are false, yet other religions think Christianity is false, how are we supposed to convince them that it is true? It would be exactly the same if someone tried to convince you Christianity was false, you wouldn't even consider the idea, and they would be exactly the same.
 
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