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Hell doesn't make sense to me.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by wblastyn, Jul 29, 2003.

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  1. AJ88

    AJ88 New Member

    37
    +0
    Christian
    Hi again,

    Hey blasty.....I have a word for you..... just RELAX .....O.K?


    Consider this:
    GOD PROMISES THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.....TO ALL WHOM THE LORD CALLS TO HIMSELF.
    It's not up to man's freewill.......God does the calling.

    The Question one should be asking is.......whom is the Lord calling unto Himself?
    And how long will this call be in effect?
    ----------------

    A portion of the following is from a study by Jan Antonsson.

    On the Day of Pentecost, Peter's sermon ended with this bold statement:
    "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, for all whom the Lord our God will call" (Acts 2:38,39, NIV).


    For years, I failed to see that God's promise of forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy
    Spirit is for all whom the Lord calls to him.

    Did you see that?
    AS MANY AS WHOM THE LORD CALLS TO HIMSELF.


    The divine initiative is quite plain there, but it took me decades to move beyond the
    instruction to repent and be baptized, and get to the real reason I was compelled to do so:
    the Lord had called me to it!

    This is the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy, "and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag) all men to myself" (John 12:32, RSV).

    Jesus was lifted up on the cross, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (I John 2:2).


    Therefore, the inescapable conclusion is that in Christ, God calls and reconciles the whole
    world, all men to Himself.
    There's no time parameter given for this calling, nor any limitation about whether it occurs in heaven (spirit), on earth (living now) or under the earth (the dead).

    (See Phil. 2:10-11.) The Apostle Paul speaks plainly of this calling, drawing, or dragging
    process:

    "All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
    And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation" (II Cor. 5:18,19, NIV).



    his passage is the nugget of gold found in the gospel. God is the one who calls us, the one who reconciled us to Himself through Christ.

    Additionally, He gave us the ministry of reconciliation. To me, this is the great commission,
    the highest calling of a son of God.

    What greater privilege could He have bestowed upon us than to call us ministers of
    reconciliation. We are to carry the bread of life to the hungry world.


    ----
    AND:
    ----


    For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, 'I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, thatyou may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.'" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:46-48, RSV).


    Do you see that?
    AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED, destined, called to eternal life, believed.


    Do not despair or fear that you might not be ordained.
    What God has planned to do, He will do. Paul says that God preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, that in his seed (Christ) ALL nations would be blessed (Gal. 3: .

    Nothing is more secure than God's oath that He will bless all nations Through Christ. "....so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive" (I Cor. 15:22, RSV).

    =========================================


    Acts 16:14:
    "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that
    worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.

    Did you see that?
    WHOSE HEART THE LORD OPENED TO GIVE HEED...


    Consider this:
    Paul went down to the riverside to pray and preach.
    There were probably many people there, that’s why he went to preach.

    The Lord opened Lydia's heart, to give heed unto the things Paul was saying.
    Now, why didn’t the Lord open everyone’s heart to give heed – to the gospel message?

    Furthermore, what would have happened if the Lord had NOT opened Lydia’s heart?

    It seems likely to me, that after listening to Paul, she probably would have shrugged her
    shoulders and gone back to washing clothes and went home.
    That is probably what would have tranpired, if left to man's (so-called) freewill alone.

    And according to some modern day theologian, she would've had her 'chance' to get saved,....because Paul had preach to her.

    So now according to many modern preachers, once she dies, it's off to the eternal furnace she goes.

    The intervention of God, dealing with a heart, is almost invisible, so it may be hard to
    appreciate or discern what is really happening in a persons life most of the time and why.


    CONCLUSION:
    As many as the Lord our God ordains, He calls them to hear the word spoken by his servants, i.e. the gospel message....and He also opens their heart to believe and become saved during this Gospel age.

    The rest of humanity must wait until their appointed time of resurrection.


    .
     
  2. Crusadar

    Crusadar Criado de Cristo

    485
    +12
    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    If you are questioning God then I can't help you. You must find the answer to that question by examining your own life and how much you have changed because of Christ. When it comes to the question of whether or not anyone is worthy to be saved no one can be on their own account. The gift of salvation is free, that is why it is futile to think you can earn your way to heaven because we all fall short of God's glory. Why other religions are invalid are that none offer any form of restitution for the moral dept of sin. That is why we need Christ, so if one rejects to only way to God what other way is there? When it comes to the judgement of God on nonbelievers we must leave that up to God.

    As the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. We can lead others to Jesus but we cannot make them believe - we can only reveal Christ to them by our fruits. Christianity cannot be forced on people like other religions are. We all chose to be Christians because of our own free will and because how JC has changed our lives. Unlike those who are born into other religions and are slaves to their religion, Christianity does not make us slaves to it - God gives us a choice in following Him and blesses us when we do.
     
  3. AJ88

    AJ88 New Member

    37
    +0
    Christian
    .
    Greeting

    It has been my experience.....that men today simply do not know how to address the issue of the destiny of those who die as 'lost souls' or live a life of unbelief
    against the knowledge of the gospel.

    Frankly, if God wanted to save everybody on this earth in the next two minutes – he could do easily.

    How?…….
    Well, there are little glimpses, as how this could occur.

    I would like for you to considered the following (3) situations - concerning how God dealt differently with certain men 2000 years ago, than He does with you and I
    and others today.

    ---------------------
    .
    (1.) DOUBTING THOMAS said -" I WILL NOT BELIEVE"

    Remember – that Jesus had spoken extensively to His disciples about his approaching death (being killed) and resurrection.
    Therefore when one of Jesus’ own disciple (Thomas) said:

    Jn 20:24: - “But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.”
    Jn 20:25: - “The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord.
    But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my
    hand into his side, I will not believe.”


    Why.......if an unsaved person would say something like that today......Oh My......Preacher’s would label him as an agnostic unbeliever and surely **** him to an
    eternal HELL because he certainly had used up his CHANCE to believe and get saved.


    Yet Thomas, held firm and dogmatically said ‘he would NOT believe until he saw’..... so Jesus did something special for him,.....because he loved Thomas so much,
    he revealed himself to Thomas and even asked him to come and touch his wounds.
    Once Thomas saw and fully understood and believed, he uttered, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!”
    You see....now Thomas’ belief wasn’t by faith, but rather by SIGHT, it was by what he saw.

    That my friend..... is how I believe that our loving Savior will deal, with each unbeliever, each one who died as a agnostic. There will be a marvelous revealing, that
    will be special and unique to each individual at the time of their resurrection.
    Resulting in the fulfillment of Phil 2:9 – when EVERY knee bowing and EVERY tongue confessing that Jesus Christ as Lord, to the glory of God.

    -----------------------

    (2.) THE UNBELIEF OF JESUS' OWN BROTHERS.....they thought Jesus was a crazy man:

    According to many theologian today, they theorize that the majority of humanity will be in an eternally hell, forever lost, …..if so, then I wonder how many of Jesus’
    half brothers and sisters might be in Hell right now and are being tormented?

    Mark 6:1-3 (NIV)
    1 Jesus left there and went to his hometown accompanied by his disciples.
    2 When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed. "Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's
    this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles!
    3 Isn't this the carpenter? Aren’t this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sis here with us?"

    So here we see that Jesus had 4 half brothers and at least 2 half sisters.



    Mark 3:20-21 (NIV)
    20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat.
    21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

    This happened while Jesus was ministering at Galilee, near where his family lived and where he had grown up.
    Here we see that they thought their brother (Jesus) was out of his mind.
    If an unbeliever said something like that today...........WHY......he would be labeled as the worst unbeliever on earth.


    John 7:1-5 (NIV)
    1 After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life.
    2 But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near,
    3 Jesus' brothers said to him, “You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do.
    4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.”
    5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.


    Here we see definite unbelief in Jesus’ brothers, as they could not accept Him as their Savior and Messiah.

    So, at least according to the teaching of today’s theologians, his brothers and maybe even his sisters too, were given an opportunity to be saved, but they refused to
    believe, so therefore they used up their “CHANCE” to be saved, - RIGHT?

    What is quite apparent to me is, that many who believe and teach an Eternal Torment and Torture for the lost...... at how they can rationalize the destiny of the
    masses of humanity to an endless torment, because all ‘those lost people’ appear to them as nameless and faceless.

    Which makes it quite easy to discard of them, as one would a dirty diaper.

    But when one reads as in the above, when we put real names on people and include them into a family, it become a lot tougher to sweep with just the slight of hand
    ‘these unbelievers’ away to Endless Torture, especially if they are the half brothers and sisters of our LORD.

    -----------------------.

    (3.) THE NEXT EXAMPLE IS - O’ PAUL a.k.a. SAUL:
    .
    Paul also, was given a unique and special drawing by our Lord.
    Paul even spoke of it as ‘one being born out of due time’.
    His salvation was like an unusual birth, during a pregnancy that had occurred, yet not in a usual manner, time or way.

    Remember……Saul hated Christians more than anyone who probably has ever lived.
    All by himself, he was a WEAPON of MASS DESTRUCTION against Christians.
    He had many of them arrested, stole their belongings and imprisoned them and had some of the killed.
    Paul, even said of himself that he was ‘the greatest of sinners.’

    Paul was blinded with a bright light, he fell to the ground, and was spoken to directly, by our Lord.

    You see my friend,.... Paul’s salvation, didn’t occur like yours and mine.... Did it?
    He believed by SIGHT or should I say by a special unique revealing, specifically and directly, by Jesus himself.

    There was no intervention of men.....to preach to him or lead him in a ‘sinner’s prayer’(whatever that is) or all other kinds of tricks of the trade that evanglists use
    today.

    Yet in a moment of time, he quickly became a most ardent supporters of Christ.
    So, why was he given such a special drawing or calling ?

    Again....I believe it was done, to show all who read or hear of Paul’s conversion,.... that there lies ahead, a very real, also a very unique and special drawing of
    Jesus Christ himself, to all who died as lost.

    There is now left a precedent for us....that the masses of mankind will be saved.....not by grace through faith.....but rather by grace through sight, -- when they
    appear before their loving Savior, and it is revealed unto them, what He has done for them.

    I don’t believe there will be a single soul of men, who will not humbly and reverently bow and confess adoration and glory unto Him.
    I hope this sheds a little light, about how any and all unholy folks, may enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

    And because EXACTLY what will occur.....is not specially spelled out in the Scriptures, therefore it certainly leaves us with using some speculation. Obviously God
    intended it to be this way for us……..or else He would have or could have made it very clear.

    In other words ----- after all the lost have been resurrected, I believe there will be an awesome revealing of our Lord unto the lost, at which point all will believe.......
    so there simply won’t be any unholy folks left....therefore all will eventually enter the Kingdom of Heaven and the New Jerusalem.

    At least that's how I see it.

    .
     
  4. Photini

    Photini Gone.

    +522
    Seeker
    Married
    I believe our God is the same in the past and before time, now and forever and unto the ages of ages. Amen. This is why I absolutely cannot accept this explanation of the "atonement" in such legalistic terms. Should we really be attributing human emotions to God who is unimpassioned? How can WE as humans offend God? IMHO, God is not affected by us or by anything we do. God is Love. Love is not an emotion. To say that God is Love, and that He never changes, but then say that he became angry and offended at our sins, is to say that yes, He indeed changes...and that furthermore, He owes that change to us humans. Therefore, we actually have power over the mood of God. IMHO, Christ was not crucified in order to heal the All-Holy Ego of God. I neither believe in existence of Hell as an actual created place for humans to be condemned to. Hell is the consequence and state that you will find yourself in according to the health of your soul at the time of your death. The healing of our souls can only be found in Christ. He heals our wounds, and frees us from our sins so that our walk may become level and we will be dispassionate. This is truly the life of struggle, and why Christ said to take up your cross and follow me. By entering into the life of repentance and the healing through Christ, then on that dreadful day of judgement, God's love, which will rain upon us ALL freely. (Matt 5:45) It is according to the condition of your soul that you will experience His love as illuminating or as hot coals on your head.
    We will all stand in His presence and our hearts will be opened up like a book. The essence that is YOU will be revealed before everyone, all the secrets of your heart. David said "the heart is deep" in one of his Psalms. When starting this journey into your heart, you will find many scorpions and snakes...but take comfort! "Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you." (Luke 10:19)
    We should be spending this short time here not learning how to live, but learning how to die. Shortly we will stand before Him, not to be sent here or there....but to all be drawn back to Him. Those not prepared, as the wise virgins were, will suffer eternally because of their own negligence with their souls.
    As far as those outside of the Church...who knows for sure but God? God sees the hearts of men. He is merciful and loving. You cannot be held accountable for that which you don't know. In Heaven there are many mansions... but are they necessarily all as extravagant as the next? I heard once that our souls are like mirrors that reflect the Love of God like a light beam bounces off the mirror. Surely those who have a pure and clean heart will be shining bright and the next one, who may have a little cloudiness will not be so bright....

    Sorry for rambling on so long....Forgive me.
     
  5. Rafael

    Rafael Only time enough for love

    +302
    Christian
    Married
    Even those that die without knowledge of God will be judged according to what they have been given, and that account only. Why would we suspect God is not able to judge with perfect justice. And as far as His creation and us thinking we could have done a better job by not allowing sin into the picture - well, I just suppose that He knows a whole lot more about eternal things than we do. It does no good to judge God. We are the clay and He the potter.

    Rom 9:19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
    Rom 9:20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me this way?
    Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?
    Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;
    Rom 9:23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;
     
  6. Zorobabel

    Zorobabel Gardener King

    157
    +2
    Calvinist
    Engaged
    AJ88 explained it perfectly. Free will and the Bible don't mix.
     
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