Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[JulieB67]

. Do you believe this annihilation is immediately after death, or is it at the Last Judgment?

I believe at the last judgement. Christ called it the second death.

And if at the Last Judgment, what is the condition of the psyche until the final judgment, unconscious or being in some sort of torment?

I believe there is a gulf as Christ described. And I believe after Christ was quickened/made alive in the Spirit he went to that side to preach to the spirits in prison.

 

[Andrewn]

I believe there is a gulf as Christ described. And I believe after Christ was quickened/made alive in the Spirit he went to that side to preach to the spirits in prison.

Thank you for the explanation. I'm trying to think how this scenario would fit with my understanding that distinguishes the soul / psyche / nefesh and the spirit / pneuma / ruach

1Pe 4:6 For this was the reason the Good News was proclaimed even to those now dead, so that though they are judged in the flesh before humans, they might live in the Ruach before God. (TLV)

It seems that the Lord Jesus went in the spirit and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison. So, here, as in the parable of Rich and Lazarus, the spirits are conscious.

Do you believe those in the spirit prison have a chance to repent and go to paradise?

 

[timothyu]

So, here, as in the parable of Rich and Lazarus, the spirits are conscious.

He was talking to the captive rebellious elohim

 

[JulieB67]

Do you believe those in the spirit prison have a chance to repent and go to paradise?

Sorry, I was at work but Christ taught them the gospel so it stands to reason they were given a chance after Christ died and rose again. For what other reason would he preach the good news to them? What are your beliefs? I know many believe in soul sleep but I don't see why Christ would even mention a gulf that divides them. Yes, it's a parable but I believe the gulf is based in reality.

 

[Jipsah]

Thus it has become evident to me that that image is an extremely carnal one that desires neverending vengeance over any Godly sense of justice, but with those such as Hentenza and Dan1998, they mistakenly assume that endless vengeance is God's brand of justice against sin and iniquity, when Scripture simply has not indictated that.

Hey, it's about Good Guys and Bad Guys. We're the Good Guys (whoever "we" are). They're the Bad Guys (whoever "they" are). We want the Bad Guys tortured forever an our (Good) Guys rewarded for being such superior critters. You don't think so? Well just you wait and see, sinner-boy. We'll see who's laughing then, won't we? We deserve to win because you're probably OK and I know I am.

And it just seems odd to me when they claim in so many ways that Jesus Himself was all for eternal torment, when He is the same Man who taught us to "love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you", AND rebuked one of His disciples when he used a sword to strike off the ear of one of the folk who had come to arrest Him and eventually lead Him to a painful death at the cross!

That was then, but the Revelation gave us a dramatically different image of Jesus. No more love and forgiveness, just mass slaughter. Not a subject I'm willing to pursue, as I see no possible way for any good to come of it,

 

[Jipsah]

He was talking to the captive rebellious elohim

I hadn't heard that idea offered before. Interesting.

 

[Jipsah]

The Word of God is a sweet smelling aroma to those of "us' who believe. But it is the stench of death to the unbelievers. The unbelievers can't obey any commandment, because they hate god and all of His commandments. God knows this and He doesn't expect them to obey, He knows it's impossible for them to obey.

So they're just proeprogrammed NPCs, wandering around committing sins for the devout to take a dim view of. Never real people at all.

 

[SarahsKnight]

That was then, but the Revelation gave us a dramatically different image of Jesus. No more love and forgiveness, just mass slaughter. Not a subject I'm willing to pursue, as I see no possible way for any good to come of it,

Well, that's definitely the picture of Jesus that the Left Behind writers and fans want us to have, yes.

 

[Jipsah]

Let me assure you that God is not seeking your advice, or approval for anything He does. In fact you have nothing to offer Him at all, so it's not as though His Church is missing your service.

And the same may as easily b said of you, so you don't really accrue many Eternal Life Brownie Points for having been created a Good Guy instead of a Bad Guy, do you? It's also worth pondering whether one can actually know which uniform they're wearing.

The Bible doctrine of "Eternal Conscious Torment" is abundantly clear.

Sure, once you accept your belief that God created 2 different kinds of beings to populate this planet. Real People who were created to live forever in God's realm, and Evil Robots who exist only as foils to the Real People and to be maintained as object lessons to the Real People They illustrate to the Real People that He could as easily have made them Evil Robots doomed to be tormented forever so as to demonstrate to the Real People how fortunate they are the God didn't decide to give them the same treatment He gives the Evil Robots.

You just can't get around it, because Jesus did describe it in great detail.

Except that He said that the Father could destroy us in hell. Oh, I forgot, He didn't really mean destroy, He really meant something else that wouldn't interfere with your doctrine.

And yes it is eternal torment, and yes the pain of burning alive is not metaphorical, it's just as real as we feel it in this life, only mush worse than we can imagine.

"Praise ye the Lord, Whose hatred/malice/vengeance/viciousness endure forever."

It's not healthy or safe to for you to put yourself in Gods place, and say it's not fair.

But it is fair for you to paint God as a malevolent oriental despot. Right.

but les not pretend that God has to obey our dictates

I'm grateful for that,

and lets remember that His ways are infinitely higher than ours,

THat doesn't appear to be the way you actually view it.

If I could encourage you in anything, it would be to trust in the Lord

Because He's either created you to live forever in Heaven or live forever in Hell. Not a thing you can do about it either way, so do whatever you feel like doing; it makes not an iota of difference in the end.

I'm not going to give you a long list of scriptures confirming the bible doctrine of hell, because I feel you won't approach them to be edified or instructed, but you will instead try to deny them.

Doesn't matter in any case, does it? You're an NPC that does what the code make it do.

 

[Dan1988]

What is out of context?



Do you believe people can know things that are revealed by the Holy Spirit or not? You seem to believe that there are things revealed by God to people, while also that if anyone thinks they know those things, that is "witchcraft"?


How am I excempting myself from a rule?

I made the point that God is a mystery and we know very little about Him. I also made the point that God has deliberately hidden many things from us. I'm not sure why you didn't agree, and chose to reject those bible doctrines. You then attempted to apply unrelated verses, to support your unbiblical view.

No, I don't "believe people can know the things that are revealed by the Holy Spirit". The things of God, are foolishness to "people". The Holy Spirit doesn't reveal anything to "people" He only reveals certain things to born again believers.

You can't find out anything about God, unless you have been regenerated, quickened to life, received the git of grace, received the gift of faith, received the gift of repentance, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, received the gift of being born again, received the gift of a sound mind and many other gifts.

Nobody gives themselves these gifts, which are all necessary for salvation, everyone is born dead and helpless and unable to get these gifts, since dead men can only stink. God must chose to give them to the individual, and we know He only gives them to His elect, (you know, those He chose before time began).

 

[RamiC]

I made the point that God is a mystery and we know very little about Him. I also made the point that God has deliberately hidden many things from us. I'm not sure why you didn't agree, and chose to reject those bible doctrines. You then attempted to apply unrelated verses, to support your unbiblical view.

This website might cover it,

"The Bible tells us that God reveals Himself to humans in four primary ways. All that God has created in nature discloses who He is. Our consciences (the human mind and heart) bear witness to the existence of God. He reveals Himself to us through His Word and the person of Jesus Christ. The first two ways that God reveals Himself to us are general and limited. But the second two avenues of revelation are personal, full, and complete."

Your post #638 says "If you seek to get into the mind of God, then you are guilty of practicing Witchcraft." Attempting to understand God is not the definition of witchcraft, reading the Bible and repenting of sin and using the Lord's Prayer are all entirely acceptable ways of reaching out to God, who most certainly does desire for us to understand him (while of course respecting the fact that He is God and we are not). None of those things are "witchcraft".

Trying to know the mind of God via witchcraft is wrong.

Your post #626 says "God never gave anybody a choice, you have no choice. There is no such thing as free will," as opposed to Billy Graham UK website, here - Which says "At the same time, the Bible does tell us two very important truths about Adam and Eve’s sin. First, it tells us that they were completely free to love God – or to reject Him. In other words, they weren’t robots! God’s warning was clear: “You must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die” (Genesis 2:17). So, the Bible says God did give the human race a choice, and right from the beginning of the human race. " (bolding mine).

Where you say "Nobody can escape Satan's grip on them, if God doesn't free the captive, then nothing else can.", also in post #626, I agree with you, but if we do choose to ask God to free us from Satan's power, He is going to free us from Satan's power, He told us how to pray...

“This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’

Matthew 6:9-13 NIV (Bolding mine).

No, I don't "believe people can know the things that are revealed by the Holy Spirit". The things of God, are foolishness to "people". The Holy Spirit doesn't reveal anything to "people" He only reveals certain things to born again believers.

The "born again believers" are people. They do not cease to be people and become something else by becoming "born again", they are human beings. I do not believe that all are saved, but that the people who are, are people.

You can't find out anything about God, unless you

If someone walks past a bit of graffiti that says "John 3-16" and then looks it up and starts to seek out what that means, that person made a pretty good start on finding something out about God. To get "regenerated" they need to start somewhere.

 

[Dan1988]

I figured you couldn't answer direct questions found in the bible and would completely sidetrack in another direction. And I was correct in that assumption.


You have pulled this statement out of nowhere. And it's a lie. I didn't state anything about anyone saved by works. Works come naturally by way of faith. But when someone doesn't have answers I guess they have to make something up.


The entire bible has to be taken as a whole -chapter by chapter and verse by verse to not lose context. Something I doubt you've ever seriously done. But by all means break down the scripture I have posted and tell me what's been taken out of context and tell me your beliefs about those verses. If one can't have a serious discussion on here about scripture, this is pointless.


No, again, I take the bible as a whole. I don't cherry pick a few verses to produce a doctrine and reject the rest. That's not sound at all to do so.


Lies. Show me one post where I have ever stated one must do works in order to be saved? I've always talked about repentance, etc. Christ taught repentance over and over. I follow God's word. Not man's. I've never even read Jacob Arminius beliefs. Why would I when I have God's word? I've heard of Arminians, but I don't follow man's word like you and others. I've went down that path before.

I was indoctrinated years ago in a church with many false doctrines and left mine because of it. I follow nothing but God's word. It's good to have certain teachers but one should always test man's word verses what's being told in God's Word. We can't spend our lifetime sitting on a church pew receiving only a few verses surrounded by a personal sermon written by man. If one does that they are most likely coming away with just milk. I've learned much more with just my Bible (and Hebrew/Greek study tools) than from my Baptist church over many years. I'm not stating all churches are like that but we have to be careful.

Again, I do not believe works will get you salvation. I believe upon true repentance, works "naturally" come from the heart. They are proof in many times of our salvation, not the other way around.

Are you stating this isn't you?

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


If someone hasn't found true repentance than I doubt they have as John states the truth in them. You can't just say I'm saved and have no real change come upon you and go about your merry way. Living your life without a care in the world putting your will over his own. That's not salvation. And if you believe God chose you for that purpose of doing just that then you obviously haven't read. But hey, to each his own....

Thank you for sharing your testimony and your private opinions, which are obviously not consistent with the Word of God.
You said, "to each his own", I take you believe that everyone has their own truth and truth is a subjective thing. And everyone's opposing truth is equally valid, as there is no absolute truth.
The "New Age" Guru's teach, that philosophy but it's Antichrist.

You admit that you have shunned Gods order, and you're not a member of the Body of Christ. You can't be in Christ and out of Him at the same time, it's one or the other. God has appointed shepherdess to teach you and protect you, but you have shunned Gods design and order to set yourself up as your own highest authority.

Rebelling against Gods order, has serious consequences. One is, you now have no defence against the most powerful creature in the universe. It's now you V Satan, He's roaming around like a hungry lion seeking to devour defenceless lost sheep.

 

[Dan1988]

This is someone making a choice-


Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

We have a choice whether or not to be conformed to this world and to prove what is the good and acceptable perfect will of God. If what you're stating is true, Paul would not even have to tell them not to be conformed to this world. He would not have to tell them to "be ye transformed by the renewing on their minds."

That's just one verse. As Christ would state, have you not read? Apparently not.....

None of that is true, because the truth is nobody has ever had free will or free choice. You were born dead in your sin, how can a dead person exercise their free will and chose to serve Go, while the god they serve has blinded them to the truth, so it's foolishness to them.

You have taken Paul's exhortation to born again believers, and turned it into a commandment, and condition which must be met to earn salvation. But that's silly because Pauls brethren were already saved, so it's silly to set these conditions for salvation which Paul never did. Let me guess, your trying to make you Arminian version of the gospel float.

I know your opinion seems right in your own eyes, but there is a way that seems right to men, but it leads to death. God has not given you the authority to lead yourself and teach yourself, especially when you haven't been ordained as a Minister/Shepherd/Pastor/Teacher/Theologian/Bible Scholar.
Your just a self appointed expert who knows everything about nothing.

 

[SarahsKnight]

You admit that you have shunned Gods order, and you're not a member of the Body of Christ. You can't be in Christ and out of Him at the same time, it's one or the other. God has appointed shepherdess to teach you and protect you, but you have shunned Gods design and order to set yourself up as your own highest authority.

Can you please show me where Jipsah said anything in the post you were quoting from him that sounded anything like he shuns God's order or design? Or are you again just making such a wild accusation because he disagrees with you not on who Jesus Christ is, that He is our Savior and died on the cross for our sins and raised from the dead, but disagrees with you on the nature of death and/or hell? You know, like you've already done multiple times with me, him, Julie, and probably numerous others outside of this thread?

I know your opinion seems right in your own eyes, but there is a way that seems right to men, but it leads to death.

Yeah, noticed how you quoted Scripture there, and it used the word death - NOT "eternal torment", "eternal conscious suffering", "spiritual death", etc.

 

[RamiC]

Let me guess, your trying to make you Arminian version of the gospel float.

Why are you "guessing" when JulieB67 already said "I've never even read Jacob Arminius beliefs. Why would I when I have God's word? I've heard of Arminians, but I don't follow man's word like you and others." post # 650, you can read it, there is nothing to guess.

I know your opinion seems right in your own eyes, but there is a way that seems right to men, but it leads to death. God has not given you the authority to lead yourself and teach yourself, especially when you haven't been ordained as a Minister/Shepherd/Pastor/Teacher/Theologian/Bible Scholar.

Again, in post #650 you have been told otherwise - "I follow nothing but God's word. It's good to have certain teachers but one should always test man's word verses what's being told in God's Word."

 

[Dan1988]

The plain speaking is refreshing, anyway.


It's not so much His not saving everyone, it's that He has designed it so that most of those He ever creates are condemned to hell before they ever draw breath. To some of us that's an impossible idea to believe. The idea that our Lord, God Incarnate, came to save sinners from the horrific results of a system He designed Himself.

Now the Bible makes a clear distinction between those who are given the gift of eternal life, and those who are not. The damnationists belief is that everone who ever lived has eternal life, for some to be enjoyed in paradise, but for most to be tortured forever for having failed to make the cut.

The non-damnationist belief is that the saved live forever in bliss, while the unsaved cease to ever have lived, I.e., God "never knew them". But Scripture would at least suggests that the number of those not "saved" is either very very small, or zero.


Making up rules for God is folly, but ignoring what God has revealed of Himself is even more presumptuous, or to be less charitable, stupid.

And a great deal of what He hasn't hidden at all we ignore if it doesn't fit what we already believe. For instance, doesn't the idea that God has predetermined that most people who He has created will live a brief life on earth and then be tortured without mercy forever seem a bit out of character? Scripture says that He wants everyone to be saved (1 Timothy 2;4, 2 Peter 3:9), but here;s a doctrine that says "Nah, He's already condemned the majority of those who'll ever live to eternal life under torture". Hmmm.... Somehow it's a little difficult to reconcile those two positions, don't you think?

Nice bit of well-poisoning there (which, com to think of it, is a pretty witchy thing to do, innit?) I think most of us would say that the best way to know the mond of God is to read His Word and try to understand what it tells us.

Who actually consulted a witch, as I recall.

I'll make a note of it.

All of that is based on private opinion, the bible refutes all of your entire theology, because it's fundamentally flawed.

I have no idea where you heard the lie that God created people for hell. You made the fatal error of "presuming upon the Lord". God chose a remnant (small number) for salvation, before He created the world. You automatically assume that He must have also chosen the rest for hell. But nobody is claiming this nonsense, and it's just a reflection of your ignorance of what God has said.

I can't tech you the basic fundamentals of systematic theology here and now. But I would suggest you join a bible class, which is led by an ordained Minister.

I'm not a Minister, so I don't have the gift of teaching and I wouldn't know where to begin with you because it obvious to me that you're no where near the truth. .

 

[Dan1988]

Are you hearing yourself?

This is what the Gospel is to you (you know, the GOOD News)? Bitter medicine and an awful truth?

Yes I was once like you, and the gospel was hard to swallow. It was awful and bitter, but God kept drawing me back to it over and over again. I kept running back to the comfort of those who preached a false gospel and the doctrine of demons. Their man centred version of the gospel, teaches that God loves everyone unconditionally and He loves them just as they are.

There are many different Christian denominations and organisations, teaching radically different and opposing versions of the gospel. They all claim to be the only ones who possess the truth, but they can't all be right while they're vehemently opposed.

The gospel to me is, what the Holy Spirit reveals to me. The Holy Spirit has led me to a faithful Shepherd, who has been teaching me, watching me and protecting me from the wolves in sheep's clothing who seek to deceive me.
God has always raised up faithful servants to lead His flock.

 

[Dan1988]

So they're just proeprogrammed NPCs, wandering around committing sins for the devout to take a dim view of. Never real people at all.

Who said anything about programming, you seem to have a wild imagination

 

[JulieB67]

Thank you for sharing your testimony and your private opinions, which are obviously not consistent with the Word of God.

It's quite apparent now that you most likely have never read the Word of God. Maybe some verses here and there that have been fed to you sitting on a church pew. You can't even answer simple questions about scripture. I asked you to show me where I took the verses out of context and your beliefs about those verses. Can you even do that? Can you have an honest conversation about scripture without insults and judgement? And you are accusing others of not being Christian?

I take you believe that everyone has their own truth and truth is a subjective thing.

No, it just means we are all on our own journey and path. I choose God's Word. Do I claim to know everything about it? No. But I have at least read it and am continuing to study it each and every day. I don't let man's word override what God's Word states. You seem very very indoctrinated at this point. That's why you won't discuss scripture and resort to insults.

You admit that you have shunned Gods order

Why, because I believe this simple verse? A verse you have to add upon and twist to suit your doctrine? We are not to add to God's word and yet I'm the one shunning it??

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
​

. God has appointed shepherdess to teach you

There's your problem right there. We have to test them and obviously you blindly accept them. Not every teacher has been sent of God.

and order to set yourself up as your own highest authority.

We have to study ourselves and check out the teachers to see if what is being taught is true. We won't be able to drag anyone else with us on Judgement Day.

But that's silly because Pauls brethren were already saved,

I know you don't want to believe this truth but there is such a thing as apostasy. People do fall away, etc. Apparently you don't take Christ's letters to the churches with any kind of seriousness. Apostasy is defecting from the truth. Meaning they had the truth at one point and forsook it. Why did Christ tell the churches to repent and he who overcomes would not have their names blotted out of the book of life? They were in the book of life but could be blotted out. So your doctrine is false.

Why are we told to walk in the spirit and then we will not cave into the desires of the flesh if it didn't matter anyway?

your trying to make you Arminian version of the gospel float.

Are you going with that again? LOL

Minister/Shepherd/Pastor/Teacher/Theologian/Bible Scholar.

Yep, indoctrinated. How about getting back to me when you've actually read the bible for yourself and then maybe we can have an honest discussion.

 

[JulieB67]

I can't tech you the basic fundamentals of systematic theology here and now. But I would suggest you join a bible class, which is led by an ordained Minister.

Yeah, that'll teach him. I'm indoctrinated so let's just indoctrinate someone else. Just because someone is an "ordained" minister doesn't mean they have the truth. You're still young and maybe haven't realized that yet. Heck, even Jim Bakker admits he didn't even read the bible in it's entirety for the first time until he was in prison. Some of these bible colleges are just the blind leading the blind. Not all but again, we have to be careful. Even in the Bible, the people read the scriptures to see if what they were being taught was true. It's our own responsibility to do so.

Hopefully, you'll realize that one day.