Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[Light of the East]

I’ve heard this argument quite a few times before. It still does not hold water. You presume that the furnace is a smelting furnace but “smelting” does not appear in the verse and yet you make your argument on the properties of a word that is not there.

This is why I have a loss of respect for Bible thumpers. They insist that every word must appear in order for them to believe in something, rather than looking at what the meaning of the word is, the analogy, the metaphor, etc.

Sir, the Greek word here is "KAMINOS!" A kaminos is SPECIFICALLY A SMELTING FURNACE!!! It is used for nothing else than purifying gold or other precious metals. Honestly! (*shaking my head).

“and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭42‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 13:42 and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

bible.com

I can make the case and I did. There is no invitation for the wicked. The wicked remain outside of the wall. You cannot make the argument that the wicked are included in the invitation otherwise why make such a distinction between the two and use the image of clean robes.

Again, you are not looking at the chronology of the events that take place. The invitation to drink if you are thirsty comes AFTER the Lake of Fire. Hellists state that this is the end of the world and the beginning of all eternity. This simply cannot be, because those who are saved do not thirst for God. Only the lost have that thirst within them. There can only be one class of people after the Lake of Fire who are thirsting - those who are in the fire.

Secondly, the verse is clear who has the right to the tree of life and who may enter the city gate. Those outside do not have the right to the tree of life nor do they have an invitation to enter the city gates.

The invitation is open to all because the gates are always open and never shut. You don't know ancient history either. The gates of a city/kingdom would be shut at night to keep out the unwanted and enemies. That these gates are not shut shows that there is a general invitation for anyone who wishes to enter into the city of God. This city, the New Jerusalem, is the Church. The congregation of God's people. All eternity is the invitation and coming of millions from sin into holiness by the cleansing fire of the Lake of Fire.

BTW - the Lake of Fire is said to have sulphur in it. Sulphur was a CLEANSING AGENT, used in the olden times for purification. So once again, if you understand the cultural context, you understand the the Lake of Fire is for cleansing, not destruction.

Look, God wants everyone to be saved. He provided the means for everyone to be saved the same way that He provided Israel the means to be saved. Just as Christ lamented for Jerusalem that they were not willing and were then left desolate (Matt 23:37) so are a number of people that are not willing to accept the gift of salvation and remain in their sins. I hope and pray that all will accept the gospel within their lives.

No, wrong yet again. He doesn't WANT everyone saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 says that He WILLS that all men be saved. There is a vast difference between wanting something and sitting there saying "Awwwww . . . I didn't get what I wanted." and being the all-powerful, all-wise God who WILLS that all be saved and will make it come to pass because He is love and love does not torture its creation forever.

I don't have the room to post this, so I will put up a link, but the Christian philosopher Thomas Talbot has written about the free-will theodicies of eternal conscious torment and the idea that some will use their will to turn from God. Here is the link:

Free-will Theodicies of Hell | Thomas Talbott

Christians have traditionally viewed hell as a form of eschatological punishment, a divinely imposed retribution for sins freely committed during an earthly life. But during the 20th Century in particular, some Christian thinkers began revising this traditional understanding by replacing the...

www.mercyonall.org

 

[Light of the East]

I'd suggest it's more like an anti-heaven for antiChrist spirits. Heaven in reverse

I don't care what fancy term you try to put on it, the fact of the matter remains that God foreknows all that will happen, that foreknowing the fall of man, if ECT is true, this means that God foreknew the torment of billions of sentient beings and yet went ahead with the creation, which means that it was His will that they suffer. In short, the Calvinist heretics are right and God is a monster and not love.

 

[Light of the East]

Let me get this straight for the record.

Are you promoting Satanic salvation or not?

I don't believe any of official orthodoxy goes that route that I'm aware of.

I'm not addressing the spirits. That is above my pay grade. I was simply speaking of the souls of the wicked being cleansed in the Lake of Fire.

Unfortunately, the majority of Orthodox clergy are still holding tenaciously to this Roman Catholic fantasy called "eternal conscious torment," which was started in earnest by Augustine (one of his less brilliant ideas, along with the idea that unbaptized babies go to hell and are tormented forever).

I find it somewhat bizarre to hear those in Orthodox carry on about how important Holy Tradition is, yet they jettisoned a massive tradition called "Universal Restoration" which had been the majority belief of Christians for the first 500 years of Christendom until Augustine began his attack on it. Seems a tad hypocritical to me.

 

[Hentenza]

This is why I have a loss of respect for Bible thumpers. They insist that every word must appear in order for them to believe in something, rather than looking at what the meaning of the word is, the analogy, the metaphor, etc.

Sir, the Greek word here is "KAMINOS!" A kaminos is SPECIFICALLY A SMELTING FURNACE!!! It is used for nothing else than purifying gold or other precious metals. Honestly! (*shaking my head).

This is why I lost respect for those that assume what words mean without further study.

Strong’s Definitions
κάμινος káminos, kam'-ee-nos; probably from G2545; a furnace:—furnace.

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 4x
The KJV translates Strong's G2575 in the following manner: furnace (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. a furnace
   1. for smelting
   2. for burning earthen ware
   3. for baking bread

No, kaminos can be a different type of furnance and the actual meaning is gleaned by the context. And here there is no context of the furnace being used with metals. My brother, you continue to grasp at straws to defend your unorthodox belief. (*Shaking my head)

Again, you are not looking at the chronology of the events that take place. The invitation to drink if you are thirsty comes AFTER the Lake of Fire. Hellists state that this is the end of the world and the beginning of all eternity. This simply cannot be, because those who are saved do not thirst for God. Only the lost have that thirst within them. There can only be one class of people after the Lake of Fire who are thirsting - those who are in the fire.

Once again, assumption. Even the grammar of the verse works against your interpretation.

The invitation is open to all because the gates are always open and never shut. You don't know ancient history either. The gates of a city/kingdom would be shut at night to keep out the unwanted and enemies. That these gates are not shut shows that there is a general invitation for anyone who wishes to enter into the city of God. This city, the New Jerusalem, is the Church. The congregation of God's people. All eternity is the invitation and coming of millions from sin into holiness by the cleansing fire of the Lake of Fire.

Again, the ONLY ones that are free to partake of the tree of life and the ONLY ones invited in are those that washed their robes.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th | New American Standard Bible

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th

bible.com

I doubt that the wicked outside washed their robes. You continue to grasp at straws.

BTW - the Lake of Fire is said to have sulphur in it. Sulphur was a CLEANSING AGENT, used in the olden times for purification. So once again, if you understand the cultural context, you understand the the Lake of Fire is for cleansing, not destruction.

Another assumption.

No, wrong yet again. He doesn't WANT everyone saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 says that He WILLS that all men be saved. There is a vast difference between wanting something and sitting there saying "Awwwww . . . I didn't get what I wanted." and being the all-powerful, all-wise God who WILLS that all be saved and will make it come to pass because He is love and love does not torture its creation forever.

You are the second universalist today to make the same absurd argument. This is a fallacy called reductio ad absurdum. Read about it.

I don't have the room to post this, so I will put up a link, but the Christian philosopher Thomas Talbot has written about the free-will theodicies of eternal conscious torment and the idea that some will use their will to turn from God. Here is the link:

Free-will Theodicies of Hell | Thomas Talbott

Christians have traditionally viewed hell as a form of eschatological punishment, a divinely imposed retribution for sins freely committed during an earthly life. But during the 20th Century in particular, some Christian thinkers began revising this traditional understanding by replacing the...

www.mercyonall.org

The problem with his argument, in short, is that it assumes two outcomes, either free will or determinism. But I will argue that there is a third option that our finite minds cannot fathom or understand. Talbot is trying to rationalize an infinite, supernatural being but our understanding or his will never reach the capacity to do so. God says that His ways are His ways. Who are we to argue with that?

 

[Hentenza]

I find it somewhat bizarre to hear those in Orthodox carry on about how important Holy Tradition is, yet they jettisoned a massive tradition called "Universal Restoration" which had been the majority belief of Christians for the first 500 years of Christendom until Augustine began his attack on it. Seems a tad hypocritical to me.

There were many that did not agree with UR like Ignatius and Irenaeus just to name a couple off the top of my head. You make it seem that the majority of the early church was for UR but while it certainly had some adherents many were against it.

 

[Light of the East]

This is why I lost respect for those that assume what words mean without further study.

Strong’s Definitions
κάμινος káminos, kam'-ee-nos; probably from G2545; a furnace:—furnace.

---

KJV Translation Count — Total: 4x
The KJV translates Strong's G2575 in the following manner: furnace (4x).
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. a furnace
   1. for smelting
   2. for burning earthen ware
   3. for baking bread

Okay, first of all, kudos to you for doing your due diligence regarding the word "kaminos." What I notice is that it is nonetheless a furnace which is creative in its use. It is not used for destroying or torturing people. Smelting, burning earthenware, and baking bread are all positive and creative acts. The hell of those who believe in ECT is not exactly in any sense either creative or positive as an experience.

No, kaminos can be a different type of furnance and the actual meaning is gleaned by the context. And here there is no context of the furnace being used with metals. My brother, you continue to grasp at straws to defend your unorthodox belief. (*Shaking my head)

Smelting in the Bible is associated with metals. I think I can make that assumption here also.

Once again, assumption. Even the grammar of the verse works against your interpretation.

Again, the ONLY ones that are free to partake of the tree of life and the ONLY ones invited in are those that washed their robes.

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th | New American Standard Bible

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, th

bible.com

I doubt that the wicked outside washed their robes. You continue to grasp at straws.

No, the wicked didn't wash their robes in the blood of the lamb. Of course, millions never even heard of the One who is the Lamb of God and takes away the sin of the world. But that's their fault for not being born in the right place and the right time, so to hell with them.

You keep insisting that after death and after being cast into the Lake of Fire, there is no further chance for repentance and a change of heart. Why? Is God that mean-spirited that the only time one can repent is in this short and terrible lifetime we have now?

The problem with his argument, in short, is that it assumes two outcomes, either free will or determinism. But I will argue that there is a third option that our finite minds cannot fathom or understand. Talbot is trying to rationalize an infinite, supernatural being but our understanding or his will never reach the capacity to do so. God says that His ways are His ways. Who are we to argue with that?

So you are saying that God gives us a moral law and an understanding of love that He Himself is neither subject to nor bound by? People insist that Hitler is in hell because he tortured people and killed them by the thousands, but if God Himself does it, He is above and beyond the same moral law that would condemn Hitler? I find that a bit preposterous.

I find that so many who believe in and insist upon and eternal hell of conscious torment are like Tertulian and Aquinas, both of whom rejoiced in the idea of their enemies suffering forever. Nice guys!

 

[Hentenza]

Okay, first of all, kudos to you for doing your due diligence regarding the word "kaminos." What I notice is that it is nonetheless a furnace which is creative in its use. It is not used for destroying or torturing people. Smelting, burning earthenware, and baking bread are all positive and creative acts. The hell of those who believe in ECT is not exactly in any sense either creative or positive as an experience.

The problem with this theory is that you are back to assuming. A furnace can also be used to torture those that refuse to worship a king like the three that refused to worship the image of Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 3.

Smelting in the Bible is associated with metals. I think I can make that assumption here also.

No, you can’t make that assumption. That would be quite the hermeneutical error.

No, the wicked didn't wash their robes in the blood of the lamb. Of course, millions never even heard of the One who is the Lamb of God and takes away the sin of the world. But that's their fault for not being born in the right place and the right time, so to hell with them.

You are making an argument from emotion and your conclusions are again assumptions. God is a just and loving God. I am sure that whatever His plan it will be just. There are places in scripture that suggest that God’s call goes to everyone. Paul teaches in Romans 1 that no one has an excuse because God can be seen in His creation. Even in the Old Testament prior to the Mosaic law being given and even before the Noahide Laws people knew God so why would it be any different now? Salvation remains by faith and was by faith back then not by works as it is now. I know you being an EO will disagree with me there but think of Abraham.

You keep insisting that after death and after being cast into the Lake of Fire, there is no further chance for repentance and a change of heart. Why? Is God that mean-spirited that the only time one can repent is in this short and terrible lifetime we have now?
So you are saying that God gives us a moral law and an understanding of love that He Himself is neither subject to nor bound by? People insist that Hitler is in hell because he tortured people and killed them by the thousands, but if God Himself does it, He is above and beyond the same moral law that would condemn Hitler? I find that a bit preposterous.

I find that so many who believe in and insist upon and eternal hell of conscious torment are like Tertulian and Aquinas, both of whom rejoiced in the idea of their enemies suffering forever. Nice guys!

But once again your finite mind blames God. I would suggest that you go seek guidance in your church. I learned something a while back as I was studying theology with a pastor friend of mine and before I became a deacon in my church. It is absolutely true that there is an infinite difference between a finite being and an infinite being. God is an infinite being, you are a finite being. The scriptures teach God‘s attributes and it includes loving and just. I’m pretty sure that once you get to heaven and learned all truth you will fully agree with God’s plan.

BTW- You touched on another fallacy, Godwin’s law.

 

[Jipsah]

Literally everything belongs to Caesar before the rebellers stole it. The titles as well.

Hmmm... I doubt my ancestors in Korea ever heard of him, or gave him much thought even if they did.

 

[jonojim1337]

Hmmm... I doubt my ancestors in Korea ever heard of him, or gave him much thought even if they did.

Heard of the Yellow Emperor?

 

[Jipsah]

They weren’t judged by their flesh.

References, por favor.

 

[jonojim1337]

References, por favor.

I just told you they weren’t all deified. Or as we would call it in our lingua, made a saint.

 

[Jipsah]

Heard of the Yellow Emperor?

Sure, the legendary Chinese hero who was their first emperor, and who invented the written Chinese language that allowed an empire with bunch of different languages to form an imperial government. In his spare time, he invented just about everything else, and stayed busier than a one-armed paper hanger for all of his mythically long life. He's a mythical hero amongst the Han Chinese, but the Koreans, or "Hankooksaram" (my own made-up Romanization) didn't and don't set much store by him, or the Chinese in general. We have our own historical myths, thankee, and don't need to borrow any from the Junkooksaram, thanks very much. Now our KIng Sejong the great, however, was the genuine article, lived in the late 14th and early 15th century, really did design the Korean alphabet, and was acknowledged by most scholars as a legitimately great man. Totally worth studying. Not a fictional demigod, just an altogether remarkable man,

 

[jonojim1337]

Sure, the legendary Chinese hero who was their first emperor, and who invented the written Chinese language that allowed an empire with bunch of different languages to form an imperial government. In his spare time, he invented just about everything else, and stayed busier than a one-armed paper hanger for all of his mythically long life. He's a mythical hero amongst the Han Chinese, but the Koreans, or "Hankooksaram" (my own made-up Romanization) didn't and don't set much store by him, or the Chinese in general. We have our own historical myths, thankee, and don't need to borrow any from the Junkooksaram, thanks very much. Now our KIng Sejong the great, however, was the genuine article, lived in the late 14th and early 15th century, really did design the Korean alphabet, and was acknowledged by most scholars as a legitimately great man. Totally worth studying. Not a fictional demigod, just an altogether remarkable man,

Looks like the Imperial family to me.

House of Yi - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[jonojim1337]

Only problem I can see is here:

It’s possible that the legitimate hier is in the Kaesong Wang clan.

 

[Jipsah]

It always goes back to the emotional fallacy argument.

<Laugh> Have you ever looked up the word "fallacy"? You'll no doubt be amazed that if doesn't mean "stuff with which I don't agree".

And let’s not forget the straw man to give it flavor.

And you don't know the difference between a strawman and Batman.

 

[Jipsah]

The emotional fallacy comes from “attempting” to show an absurdity that is not present.

Strawman. No one here has argued that God is powerless and that people are too dumb.

Learn your fallacies.

<ROFL> Hey, I'll just let you make 'em up as you go. It's more entertaining that way.

 

[Neogaia777]

Bad people sleep without being aware of it and they are also reset without being aware of it and are brought back up into existing for a temporary time again when their program/person is needed again in other fallen worlds/planets/realities, and they cannot ever change that ever in any kind of world/planet/temporary existence/reality, which is why it is also said to always be happening or going on eternally, but is not so for those being cultivated/harvested always from there for heaven from those always, which is also eternally, as new people are always added/harvested from those for heaven always and continually always, but it's just not so for or with everybody always.

The ones getting to go to heaven always need to be afflicted first before they ever can always, which is why these kinds of places exist always, and is also why some people were needed that always just primarily do the afflcting always, but who never are meant for heaven ever always, but are reset and brought back up again without any remembrance or memory in other places that still need them to do some of the afflicting always, but who have no other kind of existence other than that forever always.

Everyone and everything's fates are already always known/decided for everybody and everything already from before any individual one of these (fallen) places are ever started or are ever made always, and none can ever change any of it/that or anything in these kinds of lower places always, but might only get any kind of true autonomy only in heaven maybe. etc.

God Bless.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

They weren’t judged by their flesh.

The whole batch was already determined guilty. Romans 3:9, Romans 3:19

One Sole Exception, of course

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I don't care what fancy term you try to put on it, the fact of the matter remains that God foreknows all that will happen, that foreknowing the fall of man, if ECT is true,

You seem to have missed my essential question:

Are you promoting Satanic salvation or not?

I accept the fact that all people will be saved, ways and means post death notwithstanding

this means that God foreknew the torment of billions of sentient beings and yet went ahead with the creation, which means that it was His will that they suffer. In short, the Calvinist heretics are right and God is a monster and not love.

You perhaps mistake antiChrist spirits for sentient beings. I don't think scripture presents them as possible choosers. They automatically resist, steal, destroy and kill, in quite ROBOTIC fashions. An essential killing machine.

At the end it's simply turned off from operations in creation and permanently set aside, in a containment area called the LoF

You also assume that torment is bad for them. I'd suggest it's the exact opposite "for them."

 

[Hentenza]

<ROFL> Hey, I'll just let you make 'em up as you go. It's more entertaining that way.