Hell doesn't exist and there is no eternal suffering, instead bad peolle just cease to exist

[Dan1988]

We have free will, we can choose not to obey God. It is about free will, not sovereignty. Sin exists, and people commit sins, which are essentially things He does not want us to do.


No, but prayer does cause us to be aware of His will. Please remember we were told directly by Jesus to pray "They will be done on earth as it is in heaven."


Not in each of our individual lives, no. His will is not done by freely chosen, wilful acts of sin. He wishes to have a relationship with each of us, people can choose not to have that for themselves. It is that He tolerates not having His own will done, we have choice because He chose to create us that way, but you appear to be denying that we have that choice.


"14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." John 14:14 NIV Of course "in His name" means in accordance with His will,

Jesus was asked about how we should pray - right here - "One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”

2 He said to them, “When you pray, say:" Luke 11 1-2 NIV

So even to give us the Lord's Prayer, He was responding to a request, not belting out a command.

If we pray according to His will, and to do so is our freely made choice, we are in harmony with His will.
If someone chooses not to, if they pray some other way, or do not do it at all, they are not respecting what He has clearly said He wants us to do.

No He does not require our help making decisions, He desires a connection with us, which we can reject.

​

​

There is no such thing as free will, Jesus Himself confirms it.

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him".

As you can see, Jesus said God must first draw or enable a person to come to Christ, otherwise the person can not choose to come. So you either accept what Christ has said or you deny it and believe your teacher instead.

So it's all about Gods sovereignty, and nothing to do with your non existent "free will".

Sin does not exist, until you bring it into existence. So it's not out there like a living monster, running around devouring people. God commands us not to sin, but He knows full well we all sin. The commandments were not given to stop us from sinning, they were given to show that we can't stop sinning.

The "Lords prayer", was given as an example of how believers should pray. Jesus never said "repeat this prayer", no He said pray like this.

God does not tolerate, not having His will be done. So His will always has been done and always will be done. Nothing can happen, apart from His will. He is sovereign over ever single thing in the whole universe, everything is subject to His Ruling Authority. Your free will does not exist.

1 Cor 2:14 "The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolish, and cannot understand them, because they are made known through the Spirit". This illustrates the spiritual inability of the unsaved person to receive God's truth, showing their will is bound by sin.

You claim that unbelievers can choose to believe, but Gods Word refutes your opinion.

Romans 3:10-12 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one'".

 

[Dan1988]

I understand how widespread the belief is that human souls are immortal. That every human is raised from the dead unto Eternal Life, and some burn forever, while others joy forever. And how many are taught by this world's religions that Matt. 25:46 proves this. I have come to believe a man should consider all that is written in Scriptures and would present more evidence from God's Word to more clearly understand His Truth. My hope is only that a man considers "all" that is actually written on the subject.

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, "prepared for the devil and his angels":

So how does this work? Does the devil and it's angels die, then God raises them from the dead and they are given the right to the tree of life and have "put on immortality", and then thrown into this fire prepared for them?

I don't believe the Scriptures bear this doctrine out. satan was in the garden with Eve from the creation. Eve is dead, but satan isn't. In fact, according to what is written, satan and his angels have never died. There is not one place in the entire Bible that I can find, where it teaches that satan died. Not only was he alive at creation, but in Jesus time thousands of years later. And not only that, but when Jesus comes back, he is still alive. I believe the evidence shows that angels are immortal, including satan and his angels. While humans are not immortal as Adam and Eve, Noah and Abraham, Peter, James and John, my Dad and my Mom are all still dead and will remain in that condition unto Jesus comes back and raises them from the dead. And if HE doesn't come back soon, I will also die. And I will die in hope that HE will raise me from the dead and give me rights to the Tree of Life, that I might "put forth my hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever". As it is written.

In my understanding, this is why this "Fire" prepared as "punishment" for satan and his angels burns forever and ever, because they are immortal and cannot die, therefore, their punishment will never stop, the fire will never be quenched, the worm will never die. But for me, I am not immortal, both my body and soul can be destroyed, at least according to the Jesus "of the bible".

Jesus has already told us the fate that awaits immortal angels that sinned, which is the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire, specifically prepared for them..

But of Mortal Humans, Jesus said: Luke 3: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 8: 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall "die in your sins": for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall "die" in your sins.

Immortal satan and his immortal angels that reject Gods Words, with forever "Live" in their sins in the Lake of Fire prepared for them.

But mortal humans that reject God's Words, will die in their sins. They will be destroyed permanently.

2 Thess. 1: 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with "everlasting destruction" from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So given all these Word's of the Christ, and a lot more that I didn't post because I don't want to write a book about it, given there is already one written, I believe everything Jesus teaches, including the verses below where HE tells us where unrepentant mortal humans are destroyed.

Matt. 25: 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into "life" eternal.

Matt. 13: 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; "so shall it be" in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

To believe the popular religious philosophy being promoted, I would have to ignore so much of the Holy scriptures, I would have to believe that all humans are raised from the dead, given the right to ""put forth their hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever", only to be cast into the Lake of Fire with immortal angels.

While I agree that "The Lord Jesus taught that eternal punishment in the lake of fire, " prepared for the devil and his angels:", according to His Own Words, "awaits Satan and sinners alike". It is clear that this eternal punishment will destroy the mortal human that is cast into it.

Because the wages of sin is "Death" for mortal humans who are cast into the fire of eternal punishment, prepared for the immortal angels.

None of that is correct according to Jesus. First of all, you're presuming that the words "death" or "dead" or "die", all mean annihilation or ceasing to exist in the Bible. But the truth is, the Bible never ever says any such thing.

According to your opinion, you don't exist. God said the soul that sins shall surely die, but here you are alive and well and still sinning. So did God lie when He said that, or did you misinterpret the meaning of the word "die". It goes without saying that God did not lie and you did misinterpret the meaning of the word.

We always need to consider the context, when quoting verses of scripture. The awful truth is, there's not a single verse in the Bible which describes death as cessation of existence or antihalation, those ideas were invented by those who rejected the truth of the gospel and changed those awful parts thewy did not like to make them say something entirely different and thus make them pleasant and easy to accept.

You would accept the fact that we all died once, when we sinned (God said it so I assume you believe it). The Bible speaks of the second death, for those who die in their sin. This second death means that they can never repent and be born again, the opportunity to be born again and be saved is only available during this life. When this life eds and you enter into eternity, that is your Permanente state.

Those of who were quickened to life from their dead state in this life, (the born again Christians) don't suffer the second death, we already possess eternal life in Gods Kingdom, from the moment god saves us.

 

[SarahsKnight]

Exactly. I don't understand how someone can redefine "death" into eternal life in hell. Especially since it's called the "second death"

Believe me, it has baffled me for over a decade now - since realizing just how bogus the traditional inherently-immortal-souls-in-eternal-torment doctrine really is - how we conditionslusts OR universal reconciliation proponents are the ones who get accused of blatantly rejecting or twisting Scripture to deny their precious vengeful hell doctrine.

 

[Jerry N.]

Dan. 12: 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting "life", and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Again, is "Contempt" from the Everlasting "Eternal Life"? Are these not opposites here?

Gehenna was a dump outside of the City of David, in the Valley of Hinnom, where Jerusalem burned all of it's trash. Jesus spoke of this several times. What greater shame is there, than to be cast out into a dump by God, prepared for the immortal angels, that burns the trash. Jesus quoted Daniel in the verse you posted.

So the arguments are the same.

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure "in the death" of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Heb. 6: 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of "eternal judgment."

So according to Scriptures, what is the "Eternal Judgment" for immortal satan and his immortal angels? They are cast into the burning dump that burns forever, because satan and his angels are immortal, therefore, their eternal punishment can never stop, and it will continue even after all the other refuse is burned.

What is the "Eternal Judgment" for mortal humans? A second "DEATH", not Life. Is it not to be cast into this same dump that burns forever with the other Tares? Will mortal humans not be destroyed with "Everlasting destruction"? Is it not Death, "Everlasting"?

Where is the teaching found that God grants unrepentant sinners eternal life? Where is it written that EVERYONE is raised from the dead, and given the Right to the Tree of Life, that they all can "put forth their hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" in the eternal punishment prepared for satan and his immortal angels?

I get that the tradition is an old one, and quite popular with this world's religious system. But if a man considers ALL that is written, it becomes clear, at least to me, that God doesn't raise His creation from the dead, that "chose death over Life", only to force immortality on them, then tortures them along with immortal satan and his angels, that God Himself placed into this world, for ever and ever and eternity.

It's a great study though, and one that is good for men seeking God's Righteousness to engage in, in my view.

I’ve given this much thought and you might be correct, and a lot of people agree with you. I will stay on the fence for a while, but your idea fits much better to the loving God I know.

 

[Jerry N.]

Well it does actually since the same people wrote it. They wrote the Hindu, Norse and American religions, too.
View attachment 371131

Maybe I'm not the sharpest knife in the block, but I don't understand what you are trying to convey.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Although there is some truth here the major problem I see with your interpretation methodology is that you introduce tremendous tension in scripture.

Divine Tension is certainly there to be had. The range of thought forms ranging from Eternal Life to eternal death is about as wide of a breach as possible with everything else in between. Good and evil, the most basic tension. Objectivity and subjectivity, again, tensions of sorts.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are all made/formed in subjectivity. Slaves to our placements. Confined. Tunnel vision. Often not able to work our ways through these subjects. Or for most, just not interested. Not piqued.

You believe that each verse stands by itself rather than as a part of the collection we call the Bible.

Affirmation of every Word of God encompasses the entirety. As again opposed to your common method, which is to only apply the good stuff to you and toss the bad onto your neighbors or eliminate His Words altogether on some contrived basis, such as putting aside the laws for whatever reasons.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who [does not] believes in Him will perish, but [will not] have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

Negative statement. Dont believe and no eternal life. Common message supported all over the Bible.

You STILL don't get it. You and I in our own sorry hides bear the enemy of the Gospel. The tempter.

We also know that the tempter is a liar. So we are faced with a bit of a conundrum here: IF a liar says "I believe" is that liar telling the truth? I don't think so.

Just as the evil present within us all can not ever be legal, the tempter will not be saved in the end. We can never entirely justify ourselves, because of the occupancy/continual presence of evil-the tempter or his own.

And of course everyone who is blind to this fact will be forced into denial that this is their state, because of THAT LIAR. And they will also use double standards of every imaginable sorts aka hypocrisy.

I don't "blame" the person for this type of activity. I know for a fact it's just an expression of that which is in them, but is not them, that will be "in hell" at their end. I don't exclude this for myself either. I know temptations and the tempter from hard learned lessons and real world results.

God does work against us all. We're just blind to the majority of it. He's not just and only our Diving Loving Buddy PalO Daddy. He's also the vicious enemy of our adversary, that we bear in our own flesh.

Now, when you read those who confess or believe are saved, I affirm also. But that is simply NOT the whole story. The second part also applies to us all as well, because of the occupancy of our adversary, the tempter (or his own)

And here's the kicker: In order to even speak this truth, one must actually be "in truth." Liars can not go there, to accept every Word of God. They simply can not, and can not because of the presence and dominion of a LIAR in themselves.

And again, just so we're clear, there is no blame to the persons in any of this.

I love my neighbor. In fact I love my neighbor so much that I want to bring the gospel of good news to them so that they can feel the tremendous love of Christ. You, on the other hand, dont love your neighbor because it does not matter if they believe or not since all will be saved at the end.

Yeah, well, I very much doubt anyone really loves their neighbors, because of the above facts. The evil in no one is capable of loving our neighbors. We can at least try to be honest.

I hate the evil present in my neighbors, but not as much as that which is in my own sorry hide. This is the honest track, and a start of discipleship, ala Luke 14:26. Til people get over the false notions that God always and only loves them and everyone else, they'll just be floundered.

God really does hate everyone as well.

So He saves all people

and

Damns all devils to hell at the end.

This IS the Gospel

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

As usual you continue to ignore scripture and sidestep.

I think we have delineated that your positions have zero accounting for the workings of the adversary, the tempter, in us all. A very basic void in your positions.

 

[Studyman]

None of that is correct according to Jesus. First of all, you're presuming that the words "death" or "dead" or "die", all mean annihilation or ceasing to exist in the Bible. But the truth is, the Bible never ever says any such thing.

I don't believe the first death that all men are raised from results in "ceasing to exist", as something is preserved in order to be raised. But I do believe what God tells me about this death.

Ecc. 9: 4 For to him that is joined to all the living "there is hope": for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living "know that they shall die": but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, "is now perished"; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ps. 146: 2 While "I live" will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day "his thoughts perish".

Is. 38: 18 For the grave "cannot praise thee", death "can not celebrate thee": they that go down into the pit "cannot hope for thy truth". 19 "The living, the living", he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Ps. 115: 17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Adam and Eve are still in this death and will remain there, knowing nothing, praising no one, not loving nor hating, until the Christ comes back to raise them for judgment of their works. And if Christ doesn't ever come back, they will never be raised, at least according to Scriptures.

According to your opinion, you don't exist.

I'm not sure whether you are joking with me, or are just haven't really though out your preaching here. If I have an opinion, and I am sharing it with you, how is that interpreted as "I don't exist"?

God said the soul that sins shall surely die, but here you are alive and well and still sinning.

Yes, God does say, "The Soul that sins shall die". Adam and Eve sinned, and they died, and are still dead. I too, will die, unless Jesus comes back pretty soon. Personally I am thankful that God is Patient and Longsuffering and has given me time to repent and bring forth works worthy of repentance. And I do "press towards the mark of the prize of the high calling of God which was in Christ Jesus. I'm not there yet, but trusting in His guidance I Labor that I might be accepted of Him.

Not sure what your points are here.

So did God lie when He said that, or did you misinterpret the meaning of the word "die".
It goes without saying that God did not lie and you did misinterpret the meaning of the word.

No, God didn't lie. He said, "The Soul that sins shall die". I have said and understand with all my heart that I will die because I have sinned. My Mom and Dad sinned and I watched them die. They are both dead and buried, just like David. And they will stay that way, until Jesus comes back to raise them from the dead.

I'm not sure how this understanding is based somehow on the believe that God lied, and I mis-interpreted His definition of being "dead". You seem a little bitter here. Is everything OK?

We always need to consider the context, when quoting verses of scripture. The awful truth is, there's not a single verse in the Bible which describes death as cessation of existence or antihalation, those ideas were invented by those who rejected the truth of the gospel and changed those awful parts thewy did not like to make them say something entirely different and thus make them pleasant and easy to accept.

I believe what God inspired to be written in the Holy Scriptures, concerning death.

Gen. 3: 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Perhaps you might show me where I invented something about death that God didn't show me.

You would accept the fact that we all died once, when we sinned (God said it so I assume you believe it).

The Scriptures say the "Soul that sins shall die". And of a truth, Adam, Noah, Abraham, David, Shadrack, Paul, Cornelius, James, John all have died.

Are you interpreting this verse to mean that God strikes you down dead the second you sin? Where did you receive this philosophy from? Abraham was 75 years old before God even called him. Are you saying that Abraham never sinned?

The Bible speaks of the second death, for those who die in their sin. This second death means that they can never repent and be born again, the opportunity to be born again and be saved is only available during this life.

According to what is written in the Holy scriptures, a man must eat of the "Tree of Life" to live forever. Adam and Eve were not given the "right to the Tree of life" in their life on earth, even before their sin. According to the Christ of the Bible, the opportunity to eat of this tree is only given to to men "After Jesus returns". Here is the Spirit of Christ Himself, teaching us His Truth.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be". 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they "may have right" to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

There has been only ONE man to receive this right, to date, and I believe this is the Lord's Christ, the man Jesus.

Adam and Eve were not given the right.

Gen. 3: 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, "to keep the way of the tree of life".

So clearly, according to what is written, Adam and Eve were not allowed to "put forth their hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:"

Neither was Abraham, David, Paul etc. Only after Jesus raises them from the dead, are they allowed to, or forbidden to "Eat and Live forever".

It's right there in your own Bible.

When this life eds and you enter into eternity, that is your Permanente state.

That is a popular religious philosophy promoted by this world's religious system, but that's not what God or His Son teaches in the Holy Scriptures. Paul even teaches that if Jesus doesn't come back, then there is no resurrection. If there is no resurrection, there is no life eternal.

Those of who were quickened to life from their dead state in this life, (the born again Christians) don't suffer the second death, we already possess eternal life in Gods Kingdom, from the moment god saves us.

" those ideas were invented by those who rejected the truth of the gospel and changed those awful parts thewy did not like to make them say something entirely different and thus make them pleasant and easy to accept."

The Jesus "of the bible" teaches:

Matt. 24: 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, (Of their life on earth) the same "shall be saved". When Jesus returns with His reward.

 

[Studyman]

I’ve given this much thought and you might be correct, and a lot of people agree with you. I will stay on the fence for a while, but your idea fits much better to the loving God I know.

Just to add, not that you don't already know, but God is a Just God as well, executing righteous judgment.

Jesus once said:

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members "should perish", and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. (And Perish)

He doesn't say, pluck it out and feed it to the ants, or torture it forever. It's better that just one of your eyes perish, than the entire body, seems to be his point.

In like manner, in my understanding, giving a rebellious, ungrateful and disobedient person, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, the right to eat of the Tree of life and receive immortality, and then inviting them to dwell among, influence and disrupt the perfect righteousness which will be the Kingdom of God, would defile the Kingdom, bring chaos and sin back to His Kingdom. It is better for God to follow His Own instruction, and cast this offending person out, than to leave it, and allow it to infect the entire Kingdom.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.