Hell: death of soul?

[Theogonia]

If you choose salvation, it comes by believing. It comes by faith.

But you can choose to believe. And by that choice, you have saved yourself.

Adam and Eve chose to believe the devil over God and they brought death to all of mankind. They sold the souls of man by believing a lie.

Am I the only one who looks on the story of adam and eve as positive in a way? We are now as God because of them.

So you can believe God or the devil. If you choose to say that salvation is a work, then realize that the work comes by way of the cleansing power of the blood of the lamb. It is nothing a man can do other then to believe with all of his heart. And then he is baptized into Christ through his blood.

The cleansing power comes from living Jesus' life. I look on his blood as a representation of his life. We are saved by his life, not his blood.

 

[Theogonia]

I don't think it is enough that we merely believe. We need to live. There are those who believe without living, and there are those who live without believing.

The latter are the ones who truly have God within them, and truly love him.

 

[Stinker]

When it speaks of the resurrection of the dead, it is referring to those who have already died that are in Christ. It is speaking of those who's flesh are asleep in the grave, but their souls are with Christ awaiting the day of resurrection.

If one takes the position that we have an immortal spirit residing inside our mortal body, and this 'spirit' ist the actual 'us' and we are already with Jesus when our body dies....what's the point of our bodily resurrection?

However, if takes what I consider to be the Biblical and most accurate position, that we have no immortality of our body nor any immortality in our body, this makes us 100% dependent our bodily resurrection in order to see immortality and be with Jesus forever.

 

[Ben12]

But you can choose to believe. And by that choice, you have saved yourself.



Am I the only one who looks on the story of adam and eve as positive in a way? We are now as God because of them.



The cleansing power comes from living Jesus' life. I look on his blood as a representation of his life. We are saved by his life, not his blood.

I have searched the scriptures; freewill is a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures. I cannot not find the concept of freewill or the word;” free will/freewill” in the Bible except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will and even the gospels towards following Jesus; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation only after Christ death and resurrection. What I see is God drawing/dragging people He has called. I understand and agree how unjust many believe that without freewill the doctrines of Damnation, and eternal torment make seem so unjust. But like this freewill debate these subjects are already banned. Religion and politics are the only place where knowledge is rejected before it is heard.

Romans 3:11 ​

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. ​

God told Adam; if you eat of this tree; you will die; so Adam died (spiritually). Only though death can that be turned around; the death of Jesus on the cross; as well as the death to self; which is the second death or death to death. God wanted Adam to sin; so that God’s people will be changed. If Adam was just a perfect spiritual being with no defects; He would have just like many you disagree with ; a puppet. God desires obedience more then sacrifice; this takes a process of (SPIRITUAL) growth.

It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan. If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing. Yes we have a free will; but not one verse in the Bible declares this when it comes to salvation. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being dragged. ​

​

John 6:44​

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws​

(drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day​

​

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag ​

​

Jeremiah 18:2​

Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. ​

3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. ​

4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.​

​

It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word that religious men use to make men feel guilty) for the only freewill we have is to sin; it is a matter of processing, maturing, growing and developing, learning etc.

 

[elman]

I have searched the scriptures; freewill is a word that comes from the mind of man or the traditions of religion and not the scriptures. I cannot not find the concept of freewill or the word;” free will/freewill” in the Bible except the Freewill Offering in the OT. Now there are a few verses in the OT the hint towards free will and even the gospels towards following Jesus; but that has nothing to do with salvation; salvation is a NT revelation only after Christ death and resurrection. What I see is God drawing/dragging people He has called. I understand and agree how unjust many believe that without freewill the doctrines of Damnation, and eternal torment make seem so unjust. But like this freewill debate these subjects are already banned. Religion and politics are the only place where knowledge is rejected before it is heard.

Romans 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. ​

God told Adam; if you eat of this tree; you will die; so Adam died (spiritually). Only though death can that be turned around; the death of Jesus on the cross; as well as the death to self; which is the second death or death to death. God wanted Adam to sin; so that God’s people will be changed. If Adam was just a perfect spiritual being with no defects; He would have just like many you disagree with ; a puppet. God desires obedience more then sacrifice; this takes a process of (SPIRITUAL) growth.

It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan. If God did not ordain Adam and Eves sin; then He is not all knowing. Yes we have a free will; but not one verse in the Bible declares this when it comes to salvation. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being dragged.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws
(drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag

Jeremiah 18:2
Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
​

It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word that religious men use to make men feel guilty) for the only freewill we have is to sin; it is a matter of processing, maturing, growing and developing, learning etc.

My picture or vision of God is of a loving entity. I don't see a Creator that created some people so He could torture them forever and others who suffer pain and suffering in this world for no purpose. Free will is about the ability that God gives us to love each other or chose to not love each other. There is no question about the scripture teaching that we have that ability. You said the only freewill we have is to sin. Sin is a failure to love, so you are right, that is exactly what free will is and the consequences of our using our free will is death, not life. God as in the prodical son story does not come and drag us out of the pig pen. We use our free will to come to ourselves and go home.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HisWordIsMySword
If you choose salvation, it comes by believing. It comes by faith.

But you can choose to believe. And by that choice, you have saved yourself.

It is impossible for a man to save himself. Salvation comes by believing. It comes by faith in the Son of God.

Quote:
Adam and Eve chose to believe the devil over God and they brought death to all of mankind. They sold the souls of man by believing a lie.
Am I the only one who looks on the story of adam and eve as positive in a way? We are now as God because of them.

That is exactly what the devil hoped mankind would believe. And men continue to believe it to this day. You say it is positive to believe this, yet by believing satan instead of God brought death to all mankind.

Quote:
So you can believe God or the devil. If you choose to say that salvation is a work, then realize that the work comes by way of the cleansing power of the blood of the lamb. It is nothing a man can do other then to believe with all of his heart. And then he is baptized into Christ through his blood.
The cleansing power comes from living Jesus' life. I look on his blood as a representation of his life. We are saved by his life, not his blood.

This is what the Word of God says.

Why do believers want to rob salvation of the blood that saves them? Do you not understand the importance of the blood. Without the blood, there would be not remission of sins. What is more important, water or blood? The church for too long has turned it's back on the blood of the lamb. I rebuke all who do this. It is time to change this. For the power is in the blood of the lamb.
Heb. 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Acts 20:28 Take heed, therefore, to yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood.
Romans 3:25 whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God's forbearance;
Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ.
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by him, whether things on the earth, or things in the heavens, having made peace through the blood of his cross.
Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh: (WEB KJV WEY ASV BBE DBY WBS YLT NAS RSV NIV)
Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better than that of Abel.
Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside of the gate.
1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a faultless and pure lamb, the blood of Christ;
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
Revelation 7:14 I told him, "My lord, you know." He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.
Revelation 12:11 They overcame him because of the Lamb's blood, and because of the word of their testimony. They didn't love their life, even to death.

 

[piangere]

Hello Leon,

Well, most people are already seperated from God presently if they have not chosen Him as Lord and Saviour.

Hell is the eternal holding cell (Prison) for those who did not want to honour the death of Jesus Christ. Jesus graciously gave up His blood, flesh and entire being to give us each life through Him; CRUCIFIED. And thus the power of unity was born through God and man.

He is light
piangere

I know of this belief some people hold that hell is not eternal but instead that hell is separation from God which means your soul is destroyed. Thoughts?

 

[elman]

If one takes the position that we have an immortal spirit residing inside our mortal body, and this 'spirit' ist the actual 'us' and we are already with Jesus when our body dies....what's the point of our bodily resurrection?

However, if takes what I consider to be the Biblical and most accurate position, that we have no immortality of our body nor any immortality in our body, this makes us 100% dependent our bodily resurrection in order to see immortality and be with Jesus forever.

We are resurrected spiritually when we are make alive again by Jesus after having killed our own soul with our own sin. That is the resurrection that matters, not one of our physical bodies.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

We are resurrected spiritually when we are make alive again by Jesus after having killed our own soul with our own sin. That is the resurrection that matters, not one of our physical bodies.

What you describe as being resurrected is spoken of as being born again in John 3. Resurrection of the dead is never associated with that of being born again, which is the prerequisite for a man to be resurrected on the day of resurrection.

Let us examine what being born again means firstly, then what being resurrected means.

To be born again, a man is first born and then must die, in order that he would be born again. Since it is impossible for a man to be born in the flesh, then die in the flesh and then be born again in the flesh, what scripture is pertaining to when it says a man must be born again is not rebirth in the flesh, but in the spirit.


For a man is yet alive in his spirit until he becomes aware of his sin, then the man dies in his spirit. And unless a man is born again in his spirit before he dies in his flesh, he will not enter the kingdom of God.

This rebirth cannot be associated with the resurrected body. For a man must be reborn in his spirit, a man must be saved first in order to be resurrected on the day of resurrection.

For Christ was not resurrected until after he suffered physical death. To have been resurrected first, there would have been no need for him to suffer physical death.

And Jesus was resurrected by the Father. Death could not hold him for he was without sin. And because he was without sin, he defeated death's hold on all mankind, so that whoever believes in him, though he be dead, yet shall he live. Jesus is our resurrection. We must have him in us if we hope to be resurrected on the day of resurrection. For he is the quickening spirit. To have Christ in us is done by faith which leads to being born again in the spirit. It is not to be confused with the resurrection of the dead, or scripture would call those who are dead in Christ, the resurrected in Christ. The resurrection has not occured as of yet, but is the hope of all who believe.


The hope of every believer should be to aquire that body that is immortal, that will last forever, that will never die. This body does not come until the day of resurrection in which all who are dead and alive in Christ will be resurrected and changed from mortal in immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

For all those who do not believe that the physical body will be resurrected, try an explain away this scripture.

There are some on this forum who believe we are already resurrected and that when we die, we are given a spiritual body immediately, one that does not include the flesh that sleeps in the earth.

This is not true. When a man who is in Christ dies, his soul goes to be with Christ and awaits the day of resurrection in which the soul will be rejoined with the body that sleeps in the earth.

1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Evergreen48]

For all those who do not believe that the physical body will be resurrected, try an explain away this scripture.

There are some on this forum who believe we are already resurrected and that when we die, we are given a spiritual body immediately, one that does not include the flesh that sleeps in the earth.

This is not true. When a man who is in Christ dies, his soul goes to be with Christ and awaits the day of resurrection in which the soul will be rejoined with the body that sleeps in the earth.

1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

<> It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

<>The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is [the Lord] from heaven.

<> As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

<>Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

<>That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

<>And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

<>Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[He put me back together]

"Soul" is an ambiguous English buzzword.

The original terms from which we have used it to translate refer to life, breath, and movement.

So, "death" by definition is the loss of that. It's not particularly a cessation of existence, but a cessation of life.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

<>Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

<>That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

<>And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

<>Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

You are correct in saying that flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yet, do you not see that the flesh does not disappear, but is changed? The flesh will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

If one takes the position that we have an immortal spirit residing inside our mortal body, and this 'spirit' ist the actual 'us' and we are already with Jesus when our body dies....what's the point of our bodily resurrection?

When a man accepts Christ into his life, when he dies, his soul is not cast into hell as in times past. For Christ has defeated death and now all who believe in him, instead of being held captive in death and hell, in the place known as death and hell, they go to be with Christ.

So when a man dies in his flesh, his soul goes to be with Jesus, and his body sleeps in the earth and awaits the coming of the promise of the resurrection in which the body is changed from corruptible to incorruptible and the soul which comes with Christ on the day of resurrection is put into this body that will never die.

For why would it say those who are dead in Christ if they have already received their eternal bodies. Would it not say the resurrected in Christ? Yet, it does not. It says the dead in Christ, thus proving they have not been resurrected into their eternal bodies.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HisWordIsMySword
If you choose salvation, it comes by believing. It comes by faith.

But you can choose to believe. And by that choice, you have saved yourself.

If Christ had not died for your sins, would you be able to save yourself then?

 

[elman]

What you describe as being resurrected is spoken of as being born again in John 3. Resurrection of the dead is never associated with that of being born again, which is the prerequisite for a man to be resurrected on the day of resurrection.

Let us examine what being born again means firstly, then what being resurrected means.

To be born again, a man is first born and then must die, in order that he would be born again. Since it is impossible for a man to be born in the flesh, then die in the flesh and then be born again in the flesh, what scripture is pertaining to when it says a man must be born again is not rebirth in the flesh, but in the spirit.


For a man is yet alive in his spirit until he becomes aware of his sin, then the man dies in his spirit. And unless a man is born again in his spirit before he dies in his flesh, he will not enter the kingdom of God.

This rebirth cannot be associated with the resurrected body. For a man must be reborn in his spirit, a man must be saved first in order to be resurrected on the day of resurrection.

For Christ was not resurrected until after he suffered physical death. To have been resurrected first, there would have been no need for him to suffer physical death.

And Jesus was resurrected by the Father. Death could not hold him for he was without sin. And because he was without sin, he defeated death's hold on all mankind, so that whoever believes in him, though he be dead, yet shall he live. Jesus is our resurrection. We must have him in us if we hope to be resurrected on the day of resurrection. For he is the quickening spirit. To have Christ in us is done by faith which leads to being born again in the spirit. It is not to be confused with the resurrection of the dead, or scripture would call those who are dead in Christ, the resurrected in Christ. The resurrection has not occured as of yet, but is the hope of all who believe.


The hope of every believer should be to aquire that body that is immortal, that will last forever, that will never die. This body does not come until the day of resurrection in which all who are dead and alive in Christ will be resurrected and changed from mortal in immortal, from corruptible to incorruptible.

To be resurrected is to be dead and be recreated to life. To be born again is to dead and to be recreated to life. Resurrection and being born again is the same thing.

 

[elman]

For all those who do not believe that the physical body will be resurrected, try an explain away this scripture.

There are some on this forum who believe we are already resurrected and that when we die, we are given a spiritual body immediately, one that does not include the flesh that sleeps in the earth.

This is not true. When a man who is in Christ dies, his soul goes to be with Christ and awaits the day of resurrection in which the soul will be rejoined with the body that sleeps in the earth.

1 Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

What is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body? Is our physical body the natural body or the spiritual one?

 

[Evergreen48]

You are correct in saying that flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. Yet, do you not see that the flesh does not disappear, but is changed? The flesh will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible.

Yes, the flesh does disappear. It is absorbed back into the earth from which it came. (See Job 24:19-20) And as it is reserved unto each and every individual to die, die we must. It is the way of all flesh. See Hebrews 9:27, and keep in mind that the word there is not 'changed' but it is 'die'.

1 Corinthians 15: 42. "So also is the resurrection of the dead. 'It' is sown in corruption; 'it' is raised in incorruption:
43. 'It' is sown in dishonour; 'it' is raised in glory: 'it' is sown in weakness; 'it' is raised in power:
44. 'It' is sown a natural body; 'it' is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

'It' can not refer to the natural body, for it was not the natural body which was sown.

Psalms 139:15 "My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect (not formed); and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."

"It", according to Psalms 139:15-16, could only refer to the 'personal identity' of the individual, and not their natural body.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

When a man dies, his body which is corruptible returns to the earth from whenst it came.

Yet, it does not cease to exist. For on the day of resurrection, it will be changed, from corruptible to incorruptible. I am not saying this body will not be of corruption, but that it will be changed. And it will be of incorruptible material. It will be a body fashioned after our Lord. We know it will be spiritual, that is a given. Yet, what it's makeup is will not be solely spirit. For if that were so, then the apostles would not have been able to touch Jesus. So if will be a spiritual body, which can be both spiritual and both solid.

 

[HisWordIsMySword]

To be resurrected is to be dead and be recreated to life. To be born again is to dead and to be recreated to life. Resurrection and being born again is the same thing.

Jesus did not tell Nicodemus that a man must be resurrected to enter the kingdom of God. He told him a man must be born again. God is not a God of confusion and to say that when a man is born again, it is at that time resurrected is contrary to the Word of God.

If the spirit of a man is not born again before he suffers physical death, he will not be resurrected. This is what makes the difference between a saved and unsaved man.

To say that we are resurrected when we are born again is to make the death and resurrection of Christ of non-effect.

Was Jesus resurrected before he suffered physical death. According to your description, he would of had to have been. Yet, according to the Word of God, he was not resurrected until after he suffered physical death.

Does not scripture tell us that his soul would not be left in hell? His soul was resurrected from hell into his body that was in the tomb.

Do you remember the words of our Lord to Mary. He told her not to touch him, for he had not yet accended unto his Father.


So although the souls of the believers go to be with Christ, they will not receive their eternal bodies until the day of resurrection. That is why, as I have said already that it speaks of those believers who have died, dead in Christ and not resurrcted in Christ. You cannot deny it says this.

If those who die in Christ are resurrected already, scripture would have plainly said so.