Hell: death of soul?

[Blackness]

I know of this belief some people hold that hell is not eternal but instead that hell is separation from God which means your soul is destroyed. Thoughts?

 

[martymonster]

I'll tell you what Hell is, it's a Human concept with the belief that God is incompetent at the centre of it!

 

[Blackness]

I'll tell you what Hell is, it's a Human concept with the belief that God is incompetent at the centre of it!

But Jesus spoke of hell. Being eternal or not, He did speak about it.

 

[martymonster]

But Jesus spoke of hell. Being eternal or not, He did speak about it.

NO, Jesus spoke of Gehenna!

I you were a Jew living 2000 years ago and some guy comes along and starts talking about the local rubbish dump, would you say, oh He's talking about punishment in the after life again?

No you'd think He was talking about the place they used to incinerate garbage.

think about it!

 

[Theogonia]

Jesus spoke of the vampiric apocalypse!?

 

[Soul Searcher]

I know of this belief some people hold that hell is not eternal but instead that hell is separation from God which means your soul is destroyed. Thoughts?

The enteral seperation concept is imo rubbish. There are two souls defined in the bible Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew soul is the living creature [e.g. you and I are souls but only while we live] The Greek soul is more like the Hebrew spirit and the OT clearly says that upon death the spirit [Greek:soul] returns to God who gave it.

There is one reference by Jesus which speaks of he who "can" destroy both the body and soul in Gehenna [e.g. the body and the spirit] He does not say that he will destroy the spirit just that he can.

I think people come up with this enternal seperation thing as hell because in doing so they can say that God really has nothing to do with it, that they choose no to be with God and he gave them what they asked for, It is rubbish. Then others take it a step farther and say that the soul is eternal and can not be destroyed leaving no other option for God but to exile these people even though the bible clearly says that God can destroy the soul/spirit. Again the concept is rubbish.

 

[Evergreen48]

The enteral seperation concept is imo rubbish. There are two souls defined in the bible Hebrew and Greek. The Hebrew soul is the living creature [e.g. you and I are souls but only while we live] The Greek soul is more like the Hebrew spirit and the OT clearly says that upon death the spirit [Greek:soul] returns to God who gave it.

Soul Searcher you seem so sure of yourself when it comes to the Hebrew and Greek languages. I envy you your expertise in the languages and wish that I knew them as well as you seem to.

I think people come up with this enternal seperation thing as hell because in doing so they can say that God really has nothing to do with it, that they choose no to be with God and he gave them what they asked for, It is rubbish. Then others take it a step farther and say that the soul is eternal and can not be destroyed leaving no other option for God but to exile these people even though the bible clearly says that God can destroy the soul/spirit. Again the concept is rubbish.

And then there are those people like myself who believe that some people destroy their own souls by evil acts and deeds even before the breath of life leaves their bodies and returns to God who gave it. Of course then this leaves only the flesh and bones of the person to be disposed of. But this is a fairly easy concept to understand in any language.

Job 24: 19. "Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.
20. The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree."

 

[Soul Searcher]

Soul Searcher you seem so sure of yourself when it comes to the Hebrew and Greek languages. I envy you your expertise in the languages and wish that I knew them as well as you seem to.

Perhaps you should examine the way the word soul is used in the OT compared to the NT, then compare the way the word spirit is used in the OT compared to soul in the NT. Sure the Greek soul is not exactly the same as the OT spirit but this is the closest match.

And I do not think that it is possible for a living soul/being to have a dead spirit/soul.

Consider that in the OT it says that when God breathed the breath of life [spirit] into man he became a living soul [creature] then it also says that upon death [no longer a living soul] the body returns to the dust from where it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

From these and other passages it seems clear that all spirits return to God and that in the fullness of times God will be all in all.

No one can destroy a spirit, not you, not I, not our own spirit and not the spirit of any one else. Jesus said that God can destroy the spirit but there is never any indication that he wants to or will do so.

 

[Evergreen48]

Perhaps you should examine the way the word soul is used in the OT compared to the NT, then compare the way the word spirit is used in the OT compared to soul in the NT. Sure the Greek soul is not exactly the same as the OT spirit but this is the closest match.

And I do not think that it is possible for a living soul/being to have a dead spirit/soul.

Consider that in the OT it says that when God breathed the breath of life [spirit] into man he became a living soul [creature] then it also says that upon death [no longer a living soul] the body returns to the dust from where it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I am sure that you have considered that Genesis 2:7 when it says that God breathed the breath of life into man and he became a living soul (nephesh), and then the next time we find the word used is in Genesis 12:13 where we find that a living breathing creature apparently has a living breathing creature for its very own, as is the case throughout just book of Genesis alone, notwithstanding that it is used throughout the rest of the Old Testament mostly in the same way.

And too, Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not say that it is the nephesh which returns to God, but it says that it is the ruwach which does so.

From these and other passages it seems clear that all spirits return to God and that in the fullness of times God will be all in all.

This particular passage brings to my mind that if God exhales, He also inhales. But as to the 'other passages' you would have to be more specific.

No one can destroy a spirit, not you, not I, not our own spirit and not the spirit of any one else. Jesus said that God can destroy the spirit but there is never any indication that he wants to or will do so.

I agree that no one can destroy God's Spirit. But Jesus said that God could destroy the psuche (soul) not the pneuma (spirit) in Matthew 10:28.

We find in Matthew 16:26 that a person's soul (psuche ) can be forfeited. And in James 5:20 the psuche can be saved from death. So if it cannot die to start with, how can it be saved from death?

 

[Soul Searcher]

Perhpas I should clearify what I was talking about.

I am not referring to the actual Hebrew and Greek words so much as the way they have been translated to English. In English we often use these words interchangeably and this causes much confusion when we assume that references to soul in the OT refer to the same thing as references to the soul in the NT.

Below are definitions of both words from both languages, of course context is key and in some cases they do refer to the same thing but more often than not it appears that when we see soul in Hebrew it is in reference to a creature and spirit in reference to the essence of the creature whereas in Greek it is rarely used as referring to the creature and mostly used to refer to that which would be called spirit it the OT.

Hebrew Soul
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious

Hebrew Spirit
rûach
BDB Definition:
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God’s spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalized force

Greek Spirit
pneuma
Thayer Definition:
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

Greek Soul
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

 

[Evergreen48]

Perhpas I should clearify what I was talking about.

I am not referring to the actual Hebrew and Greek words so much as the way they have been translated to English. In English we often use these words interchangeably and this causes much confusion when we assume that references to soul in the OT refer to the same thing as references to the soul in the NT.

Below are definitions of both words from both languages, of course context is key and in some cases they do refer to the same thing but more often than not it appears that when we see soul in Hebrew it is in reference to a creature and spirit in reference to the essence of the creature whereas in Greek it is rarely used as referring to the creature and mostly used to refer to that which would be called spirit it the OT.

Hebrew Soul
nephesh
BDB Definition:
1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
1b) living being
1c) living being (with life in the blood)
1d) the man himself, self, person or individual
1e) seat of the appetites
1f) seat of emotions and passions
1g) activity of mind
1g1) dubious
1h) activity of the will
1h1) dubious
1i) activity of the character
1i1) dubious

Hebrew Spirit
rûach
BDB Definition:
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God’s spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalized force

Greek Spirit
pneuma
Thayer Definition:
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth

Greek Soul
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

Perhaps you should have clarified what you were talking about . . . .
but you didn't. Copying and pasting the definitions of the words and/or the various opinions of the Authors of the different Concordants doesn't quite do it. Sounds more like to me, an effort to avoid answering, or commenting on what I said.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I am sure that you have considered that Genesis 2:7 when it says that God breathed the breath of life into man and he became a living soul (nephesh), and then the next time we find the word used is in Genesis 12:13 where we find that a living breathing creature apparently has a living breathing creature for its very own, as is the case throughout just book of Genesis alone, notwithstanding that it is used throughout the rest of the Old Testament mostly in the same way.

And too, Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not say that it is the nephesh which returns to God, but it says that it is the ruwach which does so.

The breath of life is the spirit, The spirit is what returns to God, The soul as used here is the living creature, but in Greek the primary definition of the word soul is "the breath of life" e.g. spirit as used in the OT. I thought that was pretty clear.

This particular passage brings to my mind that if God exhales, He also inhales. But as to the 'other passages' you would have to be more specific.

I agree that no one can destroy God's Spirit. But Jesus said that God could destroy the psuche (soul) not the pneuma (spirit) in Matthew 10:28.

As I have already pointed out soul [Greek] refers to the same thing as Spirit [Hebrew] e.g. the breath of life and not the person/soul [Hebrew]

We find in Matthew 16:26 that a person's soul (psuche ) can be forfeited. And in James 5:20 the psuche can be saved from death. So if it cannot die to start with, how can it be saved from death?

The Greek added a new twist to the meaning of soul to say the least, many think the soul is immortal but by definition a soul is mortal. The spirit does not die yet it can be destroyed by God who is all powerful.

We can not destroy a spirit, not even our own, It is not possible. It is also not possible for a living being/soul to exist with a dead spirit/soul. When the bible says the soul who sins will die it means the creature and not the spirit.

 

[elman]

I know of this belief some people hold that hell is not eternal but instead that hell is separation from God which means your soul is destroyed. Thoughts?

I believe that hell is separation from God and life and your soul is destroyed forever at some point if you do not turn to righteousness and with the help of God receive a recreation of your spiritual existence. Ezekil 18

 

[Evergreen48]

The breath of life is the spirit, The spirit is what returns to God, The soul as used here is the living creature, but in Greek the primary definition of the word soul is "the breath of life" e.g. spirit as used in the OT. I thought that was pretty clear.
As I have already pointed out soul [Greek] refers to the same thing as Spirit [Hebrew] e.g. the breath of life and not the person/soul [Hebrew]

No, The primary definition for the word 'soul', Greek 'psuche' is not 'breath of life', but is simply 'breath'.

YLT - And formed Yahweh God the man dust from the ground, and blew (naphach) into his nostrils breath of life (nshamah chay). And became the man a soul living (nephesh chay- properly a breathing creature)

As was pointed out before, If God exhales, or breathes out, then certainly He inhales, or takes the breath back. Seems to me that if God exhaled into man, He would be inhaling when He takes the breath away from man, thus it returns to Him that gave it. (Just my opinion.)

The Greek added a new twist to the meaning of soul to say the least, many think the soul is immortal but by definition a soul is mortal. The spirit does not die yet it can be destroyed by God who is all powerful.


We can not destroy a spirit, not even our own, It is not possible. It is also not possible for a living being/soul to exist with a dead spirit/soul. When the bible says the soul who sins will die it means the creature and not the spirit.

I don't think it was 'the Greek' who added a 'new twist' to the meaning of soul.

It is not possible that 'spirit' ( pneuma) and 'soul' (psuche ) could be synonymous one with another. Therefore 'spirit/soul ' is an improper interpolation.

James 5:20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

 

[Soul Searcher]

As I said in some case the Greek term translated soul does refer to the creature just like the Hebrew term does most of the time, but in most cases the Greek term refers to what is translated as spirit in the OT.

As for the primary definition yes the first entry is breath and 1a shows as breath of life 1 1a 1b 1c are the primary definitions btw.

I didn't say the Greek words were synonymous, I said the Greek soul and the Hebrew spirit were used that way, even used as synonymous to mean different things, the heart is also used as synonymous but only in the sense of the seat of emotions. In common English these words [spirit,soul,heart] are often interchanged, though in common English we have a more specific understanding of what is meant by spirit or heart than of soul since soul is often used to refer to either of these.

Reagaurdless of how you view these words though I can think of no example where a living person can literally have a dead soul as it would mean that they etiher have no breath of life or they have no emotion.

 

[martymonster]

As I said in some case the Greek term translated soul does refer to the creature just like the Hebrew term does most of the time, but in most cases the Greek term refers to what is translated as spirit in the OT.

As for the primary definition yes the first entry is breath and 1a shows as breath of life 1 1a 1b 1c are the primary definitions btw.

I didn't say the Greek words were synonymous, I said the Greek soul and the Hebrew spirit were used that way, even used as synonymous to mean different things, the heart is also used as synonymous but only in the sense of the seat of emotions. In common English these words [spirit,soul,heart] are often interchanged, though in common English we have a more specific understanding of what is meant by spirit or heart than of soul since soul is often used to refer to either of these.

Reagaurdless of how you view these words though I can think of no example where a living person can literally have a dead soul as it would mean that they etiher have no breath of life or they have no emotion.

I don't think you will ever get Evergreen or elman to acknowledge that soul just means living creature because then they would loose Ezeikel 18 and they can't let that happen now can they.

their entire interpretation of the bible rests on that one passage, it's they only verse they ever quote!

 

[Theogonia]

It's possible that as William Blake said in The Marriage Of Heaven And Hell, that the physical body is just the part of the soul that is detectable by the 5 senses.

What new meanings can we derive from things if this is true?

 

[martymonster]

It's possible that as William Blake said in The Marriage Of Heaven And Hell, that the physical body is just the part of the soul that is detectable by the 5 senses.

What new meanings can we derive from things if this is true?

I doubt it.

He probably means soul as in spirit, and the body and the spirit are to different things.

The body is flesh which is inherently corrupt which is why nothing good resides in it.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

[Theogonia]

Maybe you should actually read The Marriage Of Heaven and Hell before saying what Blake meant.

Soul and spirit are different. But spirit and body are both energy, since energy has no form I don't know if you can say that they are different in nature.

Of course if the body is the soul than soul and spirit aren't different if the above is true.

 

[Evergreen48]

I don't think you will ever get Evergreen or elman to acknowledge that soul just means living creature because then they would loose Ezeikel 18 and they can't let that happen now can they.

their entire interpretation of the bible rests on that one passage, it's they only verse they ever quote!

Once again M/M, I must ask you to put your money where your mouth is and show where I have ever quoted Ezekiel 18 as a reference for any of my quotes or comments. Notwithstanding that I do believe this particular chapter of Ezekiel does a lot toward the undoing of the false doctrine of 'original sin', its content neither adds to, or takes away from the topic at hand.