Hell As Purgative?

[ArmyMatt]

There’s a growing case, both theologically and philosophically, that “hell” as an eternal state of torment doesn’t make sense within the logic of Eastern Orthodox theology itself. If God truly is love, and if His purpose is the restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) of all creation, then a permanent, unredeemed realm of suffering would contradict His nature and His victory over sin and death.


Thinkers like St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Isaac the Syrian, Sergius Bulgakov, and more recently David Bentley Hart, have all pointed out that God’s will is unchanging, and His will is to save all. If God’s will is perfect and omnipotent, then it follows that ultimately all will be reconciled to Him—perhaps after a painful purification, but not eternal damnation.


“Hell,” then, might best be understood not as a place of everlasting punishment, but as the experience of divine love by those still clinging to their sin—an experience that eventually purifies rather than annihilates. This view doesn’t deny justice; it fulfills it through healing rather than perpetual separation.


So yes, there’s good reason to believe that universal reconciliation (in some form) is not only compatible with Orthodoxy, but actually truer to its deepest understanding of God’s mercy and the cosmic scope of Christ’s resurrection.

this is St Basil’s, where the non-Orthodox ask questions of the Orthodox. please follow our rules.

 

[ArmyMatt]

and I will add that if there’s a “growing case” to change anything, that’s solid evidence it’s false

 

[Basil the Great]

I am not Orthodox, but have done much research about Orthodoxy. Based upon what I have read, some Orthodox believe that the dead receive a conditional sentence when they die, but that no sentence is final until the second coming of Jesus. Based upon this assumption then, some Orthodox believe that it is possible for at least some of those who are destined now to go to Hell, may eventually have their sentences changed and that they at least have a chance to still end up in Heaven. How common said belief is in Orthodoxy I was unable to discern. I did run across though an interesting discussion once between an EO and an OO. The Oriental Orthodox person explained that they do not hold to such a belief. Army Matt, can you tell us how common the belief is within Eastern Orthodoxy that it might be possible for souls now destined for Hell, to have their sentences changed, up to the point of the second coming, as at that point sentences are considered final? Is this view a minority or majority position within Eastern Orthodoxy? Is it true that the Oriental Orthodox do not consider such a position to be valid?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am not Orthodox, but have done much research about Orthodoxy. Based upon what I have read, some Orthodox believe that the dead receive a conditional sentence when they die, but that no sentence is final until the second coming of Jesus. Based upon this assumption then, some Orthodox believe that it is possible for at least some of those who are destined now to go to Hell, may eventually have their sentences changed and that they at least have a chance to still end up in Heaven. How common said belief is in Orthodoxy I was unable to discern. I did run across though an interesting discussion once between an EO and an OO. The Oriental Orthodox person explained that they do not hold to such a belief. Army Matt, can you tell us how common the belief is within Eastern Orthodoxy that it might be possible for souls now destined for Hell, to have their sentences changed, up to the point of the second coming, as at that point sentences are considered final? Is this view a minority or majority position within Eastern Orthodoxy? Is it true that the Oriental Orthodox do not consider such a position to be valid?

I don’t know how common a belief it is, and I am not non-Chalcedonian so I don’t know their position. what I can say is that it is taught by St Mark of Ephesus, St Joseph the hesychast, St Xenia of St Petersburg, Fr Seraphim Rose, Fr Stephen De Young, etc.

 

[Light of the East]

There’s a growing case, both theologically and philosophically, that “hell” as an eternal state of torment doesn’t make sense within the logic of Eastern Orthodox theology itself. If God truly is love, and if His purpose is the restoration (ἀποκατάστασις) of all creation, then a permanent, unredeemed realm of suffering would contradict His nature and His victory over sin and death.


Thinkers like St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Isaac the Syrian, Sergius Bulgakov, and more recently David Bentley Hart, have all pointed out that God’s will is unchanging, and His will is to save all. If God’s will is perfect and omnipotent, then it follows that ultimately all will be reconciled to Him—perhaps after a painful purification, but not eternal damnation.


“Hell,” then, might best be understood not as a place of everlasting punishment, but as the experience of divine love by those still clinging to their sin—an experience that eventually purifies rather than annihilates. This view doesn’t deny justice; it fulfills it through healing rather than perpetual separation.


So yes, there’s good reason to believe that universal reconciliation (in some form) is not only compatible with Orthodoxy, but actually truer to its deepest understanding of God’s mercy and the cosmic scope of Christ’s resurrection.

One of the problems that I see in Orthodoxy, with people who are determined that there is an eternal, fiery, burning hell of torment, is that a great number of them who are believing that are converts who have come in from Protestantism and are bringing in that legal, judicial, condemnatory idea of God from their Protestant background. They do not understand yet that the Orthodox understanding is medicinal and not juridical, restorative and not condemnatory.

In my opinion , I don't believe these people have done a serious study of Christian history, the proper translation of the Greek texts, the understanding of God's character, and the cultural influence of paganism upon the idea of hell in the Church. They will search high and low for Early Father quotes or texts of scripture to defend the idea of eternal torment, while ignoring the vast body of information that is more in line with Universal Restoration.

 

[RileyG]

it’s condemned because we don’t know. only God knows. so we can’t say we believe all will be saved because God has not revealed that yet.

hell is purgative, but if you eternally hold on to your sin, that purging fire burns you eternally.

define Fire? As in literal, physical, or spiritual?

 

[ArmyMatt]

define Fire? As in literal, physical, or spiritual?

God’s uncreated energies in the presence of the eternally unrepentant.

 

[RileyG]

God’s uncreated energies in the presence of the eternally unrepentant.

Thank you. I think I'm following.

Peace

 

[ArmyMatt]

Thank you. I think I'm following.

Peace

no problem!

 

[Light of the East]

God’s uncreated energies in the presence of the eternally unrepentant.

Your comment reminds me of an experience I had back in 2008 while at Holy Trinity monastery. I wrote the following description in my book:

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“For some, perhaps many, the return of Christ Jesus in glory will ignite a gehennic conflagration in the depth of their souls. Imprisoned in their egoism and malice, they will hate the Son and with all their might will attempt to extinguish the love born in their hearts. And so they will burn. They will know the torment of hell, a torment of love, guilt, and self-condemnation. Guiding Bulgakov’s reflections here are the homilies of St Isaac the Syrian, which he knew in Russian translation. He refers to the following passage several times:

"I say that those tormented in gehenna are struck by the scourge of love. And how bitter and cruel is this agony of love, for, feeling that they have sinned against love, they experience a torment that is greater than any other. The affliction that strikes the heart because of the sin against love is more terrible than any possible punishment. It is wrong to think that gehenna are deprived of God’s love. Love is produced by knowledge of the truth, which (everyone is in agreement about this) is given to all in general. But by its power love affects human beings in a twofold manner: It torments sinners, as even here a friend sometimes causes one to suffer, and it gladdens those who have carried out their duty. And so, in my opinion, the torment of gehenna consists in repentance. Love fills with its joys the souls of the children on high. (Quoted in Bride, p. 466; emphasis mine)”

This is but one of many quotes of the Early Fathers you can find which declare that for the wicked there will be suffering. Its intensity will correspond to the degree of wickedness with which the soul has pleasured itself in this life. This is the Orthodox faith and eschatology. There is no place called hell. There is something far worse for the sinful – the very presence of God which strips away every lie, every self-delusion, and every falsehood. The abortionist will see in searing and graphic detail what he did to innocent children. Perhaps he will be made to experientially feel every cut he administered in the same manner the dying child felt it. I don’t know. But what I do know from experience is this – this true knowledge is a burning torment which is the most awful thing you will ever experience.

I know this personally because I was given a minuscule taste of it after the death of my first wife. I had spent my life being driven by Christian fear-mongers who threatened me with eternal fire if I did not believe correctly and did not win souls to Christ. One even went as far as to say that nothing was more important than serving Christ, even one’s own family. In the grip of this brainwashed farce of a religion, I became driven and self-righteous. I was sure I had the correct religion, and since my family didn’t share my views, I was cold and indifferent to them. I gave more time to my church and its activities than to them, desperately working to be sure God loved me and would receive me into His Kingdom rather than toss me into hell. At Thanksgiving and Christmas I was a judgmental boor, constantly badgering people about “getting right with God” so they could go to heaven. While the message was technically correct, the tactless manner in which I clubbed people over the head with it was not.

Only after Karen died was I brought one night to see just what a jerk I had become. At the urging of two friends who were Carmelite nuns, I went back to a monastery I had visited before, attempting to see if the life of a monk was now in God’s plan for me. On my last night of a three month stay, I had an interior illumination which shook me to my core. In this illuminated moment, with clarity I remembered my dear wife, sitting alone upstairs, watching TV, without her husband there to be with her. Every night I came home, made dinner, and went downstairs to spend hours on the computer. For the first time I clearly realized how selfish this was. The knowledge of this truth was like waves of fire raining down on my conscience. I cannot begin to adequately describe in words the agony of this knowledge, but fire is a good description. That is exactly what it felt like. There was nowhere to run or hide. All I could do was weep and beg God to forgive me for what I had done. All pretense of being a good Christian was stripped away in the raw, naked truth of how selfish I had been. True Christian, self-giving love would have put aside my desires and would have given my time to Karen.

Believe me, if I could make you feel what I felt that night, you would run to your church and fall on your knees to beg God to forgive whatever sin has you in its grip with its false delights. For the deeply wicked, I cannot begin to imagine what they face when the stand in the presence of the One who is Truth. Every petty tyrant will see himself not as the bold warrior or great defender of his country he fancied himself to be, but as a murderer, thief, and beast. Every fornicator, adulterer, and sexually impure person will see the truth about himself and how he simply used others for his pleasure. It will be agonizing beyond any earthly description to face this raw truth."

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This description is really inadequate to describe just how terrible this experience was. But it did feel like fire, like my mind was on fire with the knowledge of just what I had done. I cannot begin to imagine how unutterably terrible this knowledge -- this truth -- will be for someone like a Pol Pot or Joseph Stalin, who committed a vast swath of the most heinous crimes imaginable. The remembrance of this event still fills me with a certain dread of my sins for when I will stand before Christ with every pretense, every self-deceit, every falsehood stripped away and the bare truth revealed to me. Chilling. Absolutely chilling.