Hebrews

[ContraMundum]

In Galatians 6:15, Paul states:

"For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation."

What role does baptism play in the Christian church (or community) and what are the differences between christian denominations on this matter? What does the act of baptism actually accomplish, or is supposed to, within the act of faith for the individual Christian receiving this rite or what is the underlying message concerning this act in the broader sense of G-d's (or christ's depending how one views this issue) providence within the universe?

Baptism is the initiation rite into the New Covenant, coming from Jewish mikveh and Levitical laws. The majority of Christians have a view of it similar to Orthodox Jews, that is, that is has regenerative and spiritually cleansing properties. Likewise, the ancient Christians administered it to the whole family of believers, including children. It joins the believer with Messiah, making His death and burial ours and His resurrection ours. It brings the recipient into covenant relationship with God and His people, just as circumcision does. There's more of course- it's a big subject. (Most Christians outside of the US tend to see conversion and regeneration as seperate)

If you keep your Jewish beliefs and approach Christian baptism, you will "get" this easily.

There's a number of disputed points about baptism brought up during the Reformation, but....I don't care about them. Predominantly on this forum the more recent and very Western understanding of baptism is believed...so I'm sure you will get to hear all the various beliefs from others. One should note that the ancients believed that baptism was something God did in us, not something we did to God. The modern version believes the latter.

Still, to give you a balanced persective,
I got this quote from here:

"One ecumenical statement prepared by representatives across a spectrum of Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestants traditions of Christianity, attempts to express a common understanding of baptism, as it is derived from the New Testament.

" ... according to Acts 2:38, baptisms follow from Peter's preaching baptism in the name of Jesus and lead those baptized to the receiving of Christ's Spirit, the Holy Ghost, and life in the community: "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers" (2:42) as well as to the distribution of goods to those in need (2:45). Those who heard, who were baptized and entered the community's life, were already made witnesses of and partakers in the promises of God for the last days: the forgiveness of sins through baptism in the name of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on all flesh (2:38). Similarly, in what may well be a baptismal pattern, 1 Peter testifies that proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and teaching about new life (1:3-21) lead to purification and new birth (1:22-23). This, in turn, is followed by eating and drinking God's food (2:2-3), by participation in the life of the community — the royal priesthood, the new temple, the people of God (2:4-10) — and by further moral formation (2:11 ff.). At the beginning of 1 Peter the writer sets this baptism in the context of obedience to Christ and sanctification by the Spirit (1:2). So baptism into Christ is seen as baptism into the Spirit (cf. 1 Cor. 12:13). In the fourth gospel Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus indicates that birth by water and Spirit becomes the gracious means of entry into the place where God rules (John 3:5)."

At the end of the day, baptism is a deep and glorious gift.

 

[dvd_holc]

"Hear, O Israel: HASHEM is our G-d, HASHEM is the One and only.

I count God being spoken three times in that statement, plus "is" never said in Hebrew...ehad is a adjestive. Trinity has been explained in other times and places...

 

[Heber]

o


:o​

 

[Tanakh]

Baptism is the initiation rite into the New Covenant, coming from Jewish mikveh and Levitical laws. The majority of Christians have a view of it similar to Orthodox Jews, that is, that is has regenerative and spiritually cleansing properties. Likewise, the ancient Christians administered it to the whole family of believers, including children. It joins the believer with Messiah, making His death and burial ours and His resurrection ours. It brings the recipient into covenant relationship with God and His people, just as circumcision does. There's more of course- it's a big subject. (Most Christians outside of the US tend to see conversion and regeneration as seperate)

If you keep your Jewish beliefs and approach Christian baptism, you will "get" this easily.

There's a number of disputed points about baptism brought up during the Reformation, but....I don't care about them. Predominantly on this forum the more recent and very Western understanding of baptism is believed...so I'm sure you will get to hear all the various beliefs from others. One should note that the ancients believed that baptism was something God did in us, not something we did to God. The modern version believes the latter.

Still, to give you a balanced persective,
I got this quote from here:

"One ecumenical statement prepared by representatives across a spectrum of Christians, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestants traditions of Christianity, attempts to express a common understanding of baptism, as it is derived from the New Testament.

" ... according to Acts 2:38, baptisms follow from Peter's preaching baptism in the name of Jesus and lead those baptized to the receiving of Christ's Spirit, the Holy Ghost, and life in the community: "They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers" (2:42) as well as to the distribution of goods to those in need (2:45). Those who heard, who were baptized and entered the community's life, were already made witnesses of and partakers in the promises of God for the last days: the forgiveness of sins through baptism in the name of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on all flesh (2:38). Similarly, in what may well be a baptismal pattern, 1 Peter testifies that proclamation of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and teaching about new life (1:3-21) lead to purification and new birth (1:22-23). This, in turn, is followed by eating and drinking God's food (2:2-3), by participation in the life of the community — the royal priesthood, the new temple, the people of God (2:4-10) — and by further moral formation (2:11 ff.). At the beginning of 1 Peter the writer sets this baptism in the context of obedience to Christ and sanctification by the Spirit (1:2). So baptism into Christ is seen as baptism into the Spirit (cf. 1 Cor. 12:13). In the fourth gospel Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus indicates that birth by water and Spirit becomes the gracious means of entry into the place where God rules (John 3:5)."

At the end of the day, baptism is a deep and glorious gift.

For us Jews circumcision is the direct sign that we are part of the covenant. It, as I am sure you already know, is carried out when a male baby is 8 days old and upon this rite one begins, officially, the journey of being Jewish. One thing that strikes me is that when a child grows up and decides to leave the covenant, or so they think, then they simply will ignore this rite. But that fact is, as the Torah makes clear, that once circumcision has been carried out the child will remain under the covenant regardless if they decide to "leave" Judaism for another religion or to become secular. In other words circumcision, once fulfilled as an obligation under the law, is the acknowledgement that the parents of the child have carried out their duties as parents and so in this regard if circumcision has been replaced with baptism under the "new law" then what does Christianity believe in the event that this individual were to leave the Christian community? Once one is baptized are they bound by the laws of Christ or are they "free to go" so to speak?

 

[Tanakh]

o​

:o​

Hmm, ok? I have no idea what that means but anyway.

 

[Tanakh]

I count God being spoken three times in that statement, plus "is" never said in Hebrew...ehad is a adjestive. Trinity has been explained in other times and places...

I had a feeling that someone would make that verse into something it was not. That fact that G-d is mentioned more than once in no way indicates that He is more than one.

 

[johnd]

Seems to me Tanakh wants to pester Jewish believers for believing in Yeshua.

Major no - no according to the rules at CF.

You want to do this sort of thing at home (God help the people in your home) g'head. But here... it will be reported.

You want to prove you are here for other reasons... answer my posts about your own bible.
Posts 218 and 219

I am still waiting, Tanakh. No report has been made by me yet... awaiting your response to prove you are not here just to harass people.

 

[ContraMundum]

In other words circumcision, once fulfilled as an obligation under the law, is the acknowledgement that the parents of the child have carried out their duties as parents and so in this regard if circumcision has been replaced with baptism under the "new law" then what does Christianity believe in the event that this individual were to leave the Christian community? Once one is baptized are they bound by the laws of Christ or are they "free to go" so to speak?

The same applies to baptism. If a person has been validly baptised, they are baptised for life, even if they walk away from the faith. It's like a present that is theirs alone, but they must open it to have its blessings. One famous theologian likened it to gold jewellry. It remains gold regardless of the person who wears it, eg. gold reamins gold even if a sinner should wear it.

 

[dvd_holc]

I had a feeling that someone would make that verse into something it was not. That fact that G-d is mentioned more than once in no way indicates that He is more than one.

I see...the first time echad was used what did it describe? And the second time?

 

[johnd]

Hebrews 2
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

[Tanakh]

Seems to me Tanakh wants to pester Jewish believers for believing in Yeshua.

Major no - no according to the rules at CF.

You want to do this sort of thing at home (God help the people in your home) g'head. But here... it will be reported.

You want to prove you are here for other reasons... answer my posts about your own bible.
Posts 218 and 219

I am still waiting, Tanakh. No report has been made by me yet... awaiting your response to prove you are not here just to harass people.

If I was trolling the forums to simply "harass" people then this thread would have ended weeks ago. As far as me "pestering" Jews for believing in Yeshua on CF all I can say is that is not what I am doing. I started this thread to get an idea about the differences in opinion of the "new law" versus the "old law" and the scriptural basis of the seperation of Judaism and Christianity. In this regard I am not harassing anyone!


The one question I have not asked is what caused you to believe in Jesus as the Messiah apart from the scriptures and how has it changed your lives?

 

[Tanakh]

The same applies to baptism. If a person has been validly baptised, they are baptised for life, even if they walk away from the faith. It's like a present that is theirs alone, but they must open it to have its blessings. One famous theologian likened it to gold jewellry. It remains gold regardless of the person who wears it, eg. gold reamins gold even if a sinner should wear it.

I figured that it was similar in meaing apart from the major difference being one is physical (circumcision) and the other mental (baptism).

 

[Tanakh]

I see...the first time echad was used what did it describe? And the second time?

Once again, Deuteronomy 6:4

"Hear, O Israel; HASHEM is our G-d, HASHEM is the One and Only."

Also read as:

"Hear, O Israel: The L-rd our G-d, the L-rd is one."

So tell me, how does the wording of the verse supposedly acknowledge the existence of the trinity? I fail to see how saying G-d or L-rd more then once constitutes a triune deity! It is saying, emphatically, that G-d is ONE in the utmost degree of unity, without anything added to His essence.

 

[visionary]

I, myself and me... are just one.

My mind, body, and spirit, are just one.

Scriptures lead me to Yeshua and Yeshua revealed Himself to me... thus confirming what scriptures said about Him.

 

[Heber]

Hmm, ok? I have no idea what that means but anyway.

O​

Just reflecting on your circular arguments - a question is asked, the answer is dismisssed, debate follows, the debate is dismissed, the questioner answers his own question how he wants it to be answered, a response is made, the response(s) are dismissed and the questioner refuses to accept any other answer than his own, other person wonders why the question was asked in the first place, a question is asked... repeat cycle ad infinitum

 

[anisavta]

One = echad.
As in man and woman = echad.
One man and one woman are two people but yet an echad. They are a unity. They are in unity.
Explain that? It's a mystery. Just as G~d (Father, Son, Spirit) is a mystery.

 

[johnd]

If I was trolling the forums to simply "harass" people then this thread would have ended weeks ago. As far as me "pestering" Jews for believing in Yeshua on CF all I can say is that is not what I am doing. I started this thread to get an idea about the differences in opinion of the "new law" versus the "old law" and the scriptural basis of the seperation of Judaism and Christianity. In this regard I am not harassing anyone!


The one question I have not asked is what caused you to believe in Jesus as the Messiah apart from the scriptures and how has it changed your lives?

Then answer the questions in the posts I asked you to (218 and 219).

 

[johnd]

O​

Just reflecting on your circular arguments - a question is asked, the answer is dismisssed, debate follows, the debate is dismissed, the questioner answers his own question how he wants it to be answered, a response is made, the response(s) are dismissed and the questioner refuses to accept any other answer than his own, other person wonders why the question was asked in the first place, a question is asked... repeat cycle ad infinitum

Precisely my point. Harassment, agitation, chasing ones' own tail... Tanakh is not here to do or be what he claims.

 

[johnd]

One = echad.
As in man and woman = echad.
One man and one woman are two people but yet an echad. They are a unity. They are in unity.
Explain that? It's a mystery. Just as G~d (Father, Son, Spirit) is a mystery.

Anne Sullivan Macy renown teacher of Helen Keller broke through the physical impairments which imprisoned an otherwise normal thinking feeling human being (born blind and deaf).

Anne persistently showed Helen what is (fire hot) or (sticker sharp) then signing it into the palm of Keller's hand with a modified sign language.

God did this with humanity. Showing us what is over and over and identifying what he showed as God or the will of God.

The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Spirit is God.

The Father is not the Son or the Spirit.
The Son is not the Father or the Spirit.
The Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

There is one God.

A family could do this.

The Father is family.
The Mother is family.
The Child is family.

The Father is not the Mother or the Child.
The Mother is not the Father or the Child.
The Child is not the Father or the Mother.

This is one Family.

I don't see the mystery now that we have the complete Bible to explain how elohIYM is one God prone to say "we" and "us." Makes sense to me.

 

[dvd_holc]

One = echad.
As in man and woman = echad.
One man and one woman are two people but yet an echad. They are a unity. They are in unity.
Explain that? It's a mystery. Just as G~d (Father, Son, Spirit) is a mystery.

exactly