Hebrews 10:26

[Bluelion]

I agree to a point, but if you disconnect yourself, walk away PERMANENTLY from the Lord, it's more than a decision, it's an action AGAINST the Lord, more in line with what the devil did.

Prodigals usually return to the Lord because the consequences of sin outperforms the pleasure of sin.

But what about someone who really turns against or away from the Lord and never returns?

They have willfully disconnected themselves from the source of spiritual life.

Can the HOLY SPIRIT continue to dwell in someone who says "Leave me alone. I don't want anything to do with you ever again", and really means it?

I'm asking the Lord to make this clear. Can someone indwelt by the HOLY SPIRIT kick HIM out?

The answer to this question is what causes me to be unsure about which interpretation to give the scriptures, you, Harry, OldDogDiver, me, and others have presented.

I'm tempted to think the book of Hebrews was written to Jews who were thinking of abandoning Christ, at a point when they had "tasted" of the Lord, but not "immersed" themselves in HIM to the point of being SBG, but the Pastor's wife and Charles Templeton's story gives me pause. Unless they would be called those who prophesied, cast out demons and did miracles, yet the Lord said HE NEVER knew them (Matthew 7).

Lord, make the truth plain to us, in the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Make us free from defending our ideas, and come to know your meaning on scripture. Thank you Lord for YOUR HOLY SPIRIT who leads and guides us into all truth, your word is truth. In Jesus' mighty name. AMEN.

I don't think a child of God could ever turn from God, I don't think it is in them. I think any one who does was never saved in the first place. Being reborn is the old things have passed away, maybe not in flesh but in spirit. The flesh can never win against the spirit because it comes from God and the flesh nature from evil.

I have strayed many times in my life. I have tested this not on purpose and I never said for him to leave, but I even chased after false Gods at one time and He always brought me back stronger than before and with more Love for him. Now i hope my days of wondering are over, because God has shown me every thing i ever wanted was in Him all along. But even when i was wondering you could see Jesus in my heart because i still helped people I did not know. I could not say no.

I think God is always with us who are saved and while we can be tricked like me into straying God will never let go.

John 6 says it all.

 

[DMW]

If it's not possible to ever turn away from the Lord, why so many warnings against doing so? To say a person must not have ever been saved in the first place is just ridiculous and the only way to keep your reformed theology intact.

 

[now faith]

Love Kenneth E. Hagin, but he's not infallible. You keep posting this sentiment as if he is.

A good point all men make mistakes,some correct them some hold fast.

It's just that Dad Hagin made fewer than most

 

[now faith]

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[now faith]

We must admit one thing in Hebrews on this subject.

Paul worded this a bit ambitious,not false just easy to misinterpret.

He was thought worthy?

Has counted the blood of the covenant,where with he WAS SANCTIFIED.

The suggestion here is past tense.

If we view it as passing on the invitation of God say [the holy Spirit is drawing or convicting a sinner] does this mean one chance?

We know a continuous refusal will inflict God to turn them over to a reprobate mind,but what does this context have to do with Christ being 're crucified.

To revisit the cross would logically mean one had previously been there.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I agree to a point, but if you disconnect yourself, walk away PERMANENTLY from the Lord, it's more than a decision, it's an action AGAINST the Lord, more in line with what the devil did.

You can't disconnect yourself. My answer to this is larger than I'll post here. I will have it posted on my blog at www.ablessedman.com by mid-week.

You are part of the Body of Christ. You are not your own. You are sealed for redemption. It is God's decision what your use in the Body will be after you have chosen the Blessing over the curse.

1 Corinthians 12:14-18
For in fact the body is not a single member, but many. 15 If the foot says, "Since I am not a hand, I am not part of the body," it does not lose its membership in the body because of that. 16 And if the ear says, "Since I am not an eye, I am not part of the body," it does not lose its membership in the body because of that. 17 If the whole body were an eye, what part would do the hearing? If the whole were an ear, what part would exercise the sense of smell? 18 But as a matter of fact, God has placed each of the members in the body just as he decided.​

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I don't think a child of God could ever turn from God, I don't think it is in them.

Bingo!

I think God is always with us who are saved and while we can be tricked like me into straying God will never let go.

John 6 says it all.

Bingo, Bingo!!!

 

[Truthfrees]

thank you for that. God showed me last night I am not required to forgive those who won't admit to doing anything wrong and think they don't need forgiveness and that it was my fault. The passage you quoted says if they repent, thing is my mom and brother blame me and have never not once repented.

Have have stop speaking to them both However my mom is calling twice a day like nothing is wrong. Last time we spoke she was abusive and hung up on me, in fact she never says by to me just hangs up on me like I am trash. I'm done

Yes. I also like how Matthew 15:14 says have NOTHING to do with them.

Dealing with people like this takes a lot of prayer to:

1. Heal the wounds from how they treated you
2. Not fall into anger, bitterness, or unforgiveness
3. Not get pulled back into their toxic circle
4. Know what the Lord wants you to do or not do to break the patterns of toxic interaction that you and they have grown use to

Staying away from them will help these 4 points advance quicker.

They'll miss you because you may be the only light in their life right now, but you can't help them due to the toxic spiritual state they're in.

Another key point to help you not be bitter or angry WHILE you keep your distance and heal is:

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." - Ephesians 6:12

It LOOKS like this behavior is FOR SURE the people, but when you get the revelation of how it's people who're so distant from the Lord and HIS words filling their heart, that the devil can lead them around by the nose to follow practically his every whim, you'll be able to distance yourself from them because of the devil, not because you hold anything against the people.

IOW, because the devil is so successfully leading them around, it's WISE to keep your distance as Matthew 15:14 says, and ONLY do and say exactly what the LORD tells you to.

 

[now faith]

I am convinced that only God can bring healing to a narcissist,for a child of God it is futile.

They discount your being a believer by reducing you to hypocrisy while they consider themselves true Christians.
Yet their fruit is discord and void of compassion,if you stay within their realm you start to believe you are
Unworthy and need their guidance.
You live in a state of guilt after all look what you have done to them!!

As Bob said cut them off get away but when you do expect to experience cruel acts you could never have
Imagined,they do not like to lose control.

Personally some are so malignant they would cause harm to their kids or kill animals,some are dangerous and I believe are possessed.

Disclaimer: I am not implying Blue Lion has a family like this,just drawing on my own life experience.

 

[Optimax]

Bingo!


Bingo, Bingo!!!

If the game was being played you were right.

Since we are not playing "Bingo" .......................................

 

[DMW]

"You can't disconnect yourself."

This is error. It's poison, and it's not taught by any prominent Word of Faith teachers.
You surely can disconnect yourself and hundreds of scriptural warnings against such a things ought to be adequate for us to dispel with such a notion. This is a doctrine of devils.

 

[Truthfrees]

You can't disconnect yourself. My answer to this is larger than I'll post here. I will have it posted on my blog at www.ablessedman.com by mid-week.

You are part of the Body of Christ. You are not your own. You are sealed for redemption. It is God's decision what your use in the Body will be after you have chosen the Blessing over the curse.

1 Corinthians 12:14-18
For in fact the body is not a single member, but many. 15 If the foot says, "Since I am not a hand, I am not part of the body," it does not lose its membership in the body because of that. 16 And if the ear says, "Since I am not an eye, I am not part of the body," it does not lose its membership in the body because of that. 17 If the whole body were an eye, what part would do the hearing? If the whole were an ear, what part would exercise the sense of smell? 18 But as a matter of fact, God has placed each of the members in the body just as he decided.​

Look forward to reading it.

I'm answering your question more fully in a post I'm still making to Bluelion.

His post got me going in a certain direction, which is why it's connected to his post.

QUESTION: Are you absolutely sure that a person can't disconnect from the Lord?

I can see in scripture what you're saying (which is what I believed also before I read Dad Hagin), but now I can also see in scripture what Dad Hagin says the Lord told him. (More in my post to Bluelion.)

I can see the interpretation from both sides. For me the KEY question is CAN a member of the BODY of CHRIST disconnect? Can a new creation become spiritually dead by WILLFUL CHOICE? People commit suicide by willful choice. People commit divorce by willful choice. Is it possible to commit spiritual suicide or spiritual divorce by willful choice?


Dear Lord Father God, thank you for YOUR HOLY SPIRIT that leads and guides us into all truth. Lead and guide us into what YOU have to say on this topic we're discussing. Enlighten us on the proper meanings of your words. Remove any blocks we may have to understanding YOU. Help us cling to YOU far more than we cling to any doctrine or idea. Bring us into harmony with YOUR attitude and YOUR thoughts on these matters. We appreciate YOU, honor YOU, glorify YOU, and love YOU first and most. Dear Lord Jesus, Dad Hagin said YOU told him certain things. Dear Lord, tell each of us too. Open our hearts to hear YOU fully and completely on this subject. It's important for us to know the truth. We look to you, our Lord and Savior, the author and finisher of our faith. You asked the Father that we be one as YOU and the Father are one. AMEN to that LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, in the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[Truthfrees]

"You can't disconnect yourself."

This is error. It's poison, and it's not taught by any prominent Word of Faith teachers.
You surely can disconnect yourself and hundreds of scriptural warnings against such a things ought to be adequate for us to dispel with such a notion. This is a doctrine of devils.

I posted 6 pages of "I Believe in Visions" is the SBG thread, which is very compelling on explaining the wof stand on SBG, the security of the believer.

Do you have any more teaching from anyone on this subject?

Any links to some of this original wof teaching?

My experience is, when I disagreed with Hagin, Copeland, etc, I went to the Lord to get HIS word on the matter.

As it worked out, I misunderstood what they were saying, OR I didn't have enough background information to build up to what they were saying.

 

[Bluelion]

Yes. I also like how Matthew 15:14 says have NOTHING to do with them.

Dealing with people like this takes a lot of prayer to:

1. Heal the wounds from how they treated you
2. Not fall into anger, bitterness, or unforgiveness
3. Not get pulled back into their toxic circle
4. Know what the Lord wants you to do or not do to break the patterns of toxic interaction that you and they have grown use to

Staying away from them will help these 4 points advance quicker.

They'll miss you because you may be the only light in their life right now, but you can't help them due to the toxic spiritual state they're in.

Another key point to help you not be bitter or angry WHILE you keep your distance and heal is:

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." - Ephesians 6:12

It LOOKS like this behavior is FOR SURE the people, but when you get the revelation of how it's people who're so distant from the Lord and HIS words filling their heart, that the devil can lead them around by the nose to follow practically his every whim, you'll be able to distance yourself from them because of the devil, not because you hold anything against the people.

IOW, because the devil is so successfully leading them around, it's WISE to keep your distance as Matthew 15:14 says, and ONLY do and say exactly what the LORD tells you to.

thanks it takes a lot of prayer you are right. It is also hard to cut them off as i love them, but I can not subject my self to them any longer. It feels freeing. My mom always comes back at with Honor you mother and father. I said i honor her with the life i live, but do you have an answer about honor your mother and father?

 

[Truthfrees]

Ultimately, someone who has disconnected themselves from the BODY of CHRIST would know it, even if no one else can believe it possible. (More about that in my post to Bluelion that I'm still working on.)

Dad Hagin asked the Lord why HE was telling him all this stuff about disconnecting from the Lord.

HE said it was so that Hagin would:

1. know how demons get ahold of people, including Christians, and
2. so he could pray and stop the demonic interference the Pastor's ex-wife had in that Pastor's life and ministry.

I want to know about all this to know for sure how secure the believer is in SBG.

 

[Bluelion]

I am convinced that only God can bring healing to a narcissist,for a child of God it is futile.

They discount your being a believer by reducing you to hypocrisy while they consider themselves true Christians.
Yet their fruit is discord and void of compassion,if you stay within their realm you start to believe you are
Unworthy and need their guidance.
You live in a state of guilt after all look what you have done to them!!

As Bob said cut them off get away but when you do expect to experience cruel acts you could never have
Imagined,they do not like to lose control.

Personally some are so malignant they would cause harm to their kids or kill animals,some are dangerous and I believe are possessed.

Disclaimer: I am not implying Blue Lion has a family like this,just drawing on my own life experience.

That about sums them up, my brother abused my dogs to hurt me. I just got to question can a child of God abuse animals. That is just not in me and I can not image in any child of God.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

QUESTION: Are you absolutely sure that a person can't disconnect from the Lord?

This is why Christians discuss such things. What is "absolutely sure?" I believe OSAS. I believe I put forth valid arguments for its teaching in scripture. Others put forth complete arguments to the contrary from scripture. My position is that both cannot be true and I feel that I have answered how the contrarians' points are dealt with in my interpretations, but that the contrarians cannot adequately include the points that I've brought up. But that is a belief, a choice. It is not a proof. This all goes back to a more basic discussion of what is essential belief and what is non-essential.

I can see in scripture what you're saying (which is what I believed also before I read Dad Hagin), but now I can also see in scripture what Dad Hagin says the Lord told him. (More in my post to Bluelion.)

Which is why we all talk. Bring forth the argument.

I can see the interpretation from both sides. For me the KEY question is CAN a member of the BODY of CHRIST disconnect? Can a new creation become spiritually dead by WILLFUL CHOICE? People commit suicide by willful choice. People commit divorce by willful choice. Is it possible to commit spiritual suicide or spiritual divorce by willful choice?

But your question is leading. That is: people get divorced, therefore we are able to divorce.

I disagree.

Matthew 5:31-32 (NET)
31 "It was said, ' Whoever divorces his wife must give her a legal document .' 32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.​

These people got a divorce. God did not recognize man's putting asunder the union. When they remarried, in God's eyes, they committed adultery. What is important to the question of divorce focusing on CAN you and SHOULD you?

Ultimately scripture is consistent with itself. If we see inconsistencies, then our interpretation is wrong... not that scripture is disjoint.

 

[Truthfrees]

thanks it takes a lot of prayer you are right. It is also hard to cut them off as i love them, but I can not subject my self to them any longer. It feels freeing. My mom always comes back at with Honor you mother and father. I said i honor her with the life i live, but do you have an answer about honor your mother and father?

Honor means respect and treat well.

You're already doing this.

So next order of business is to have nothing to do with Matthew 15:14 types of people. It doesn't matter who they are, it's the Lord's word on what to do with these types of people.

ALSO, scripture says to leave your father and mother and cleave to your wife. (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Ephesians 5:31)

You now have obligations to your new family BECAUSE you left your father and mother for them. This is scriptural.

You can help your parents and siblings IF and HOW the LORD tells you too, BUT if you're being abused by parents and siblings, this WILL affect your wife and children. You owe it to your wife and children to give them a blessed husband and father, not an abused one.

For the Lord's name sake, the sake of the kingdom of GOD being fully manifest in your life, you need to leave them behind.

If or when they repent, the Lord may tell you how to interact with them on a limited basis, but your new life is with your wife and children.

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life." - Matthew 19:29, Mark10:29

"Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." - Luke 18:29-30

This means you might leave people for the sake of the kingdom of GOD.

May the kingdom of GOD flood richly into your life and your new family's life.

May the Lord give you wisdom and peace as you consult HIM on everything you do.

 

[hhodgson]

God showed me last night I am not required to forgive those who won't admit to doing anything wrong and think they don't need forgiveness and that it was my fault.

Grace to you Bluelion... If I can help...

What you could do is to ask God to... "FORGIVE THEM" for they not know what they do" as Jesus did on the cross. (Luke 23:34)

Have stop speaking to them both However my mom is calling twice a day like nothing is wrong. Last time we spoke she was abusive and hung up on me, in fact she never says by to me just hangs up on me like I am trash. (I'M DONE!)

Ok... now that your done... Let's learn about entering into God's REST.

Sounds like you have prayed, prayed, and prayed and DONE all YOU can do on your own. It's NOW time for you to Enter Into His Rest. (IMO), All of the "pray, prayer, and praying" is not necessary...

Please hear me out. For years... most churches have taught that we are to "grab the horns of the alter" and to keep on praying until you FEEL that release. (More on this later)

Back to entering His REST...

Heb 4:9-11
There remaineth therefore a REST to the people of God. For he that is entered into His REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His. Let us labour therefore to enter into that REST, (BELIEVE), lest any man fall after the same example of "unbelief."

John 6:28-29 We find Jesus being asked the same question by the multitude who had been awed by His miracles..."What shall we do, that we may WORK the works of God?" Notice how Jesus answered them: "This is the work (Labour) of God, that you BELIEVE in Him whom He sent."
​

This is how to enter His REST... BELIEVE, and IF you give it to God... He will give you His REST.

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to me all who are weary and carrying heavy burdens And I will give you REST."

I Pet 5:7 "Casting all your CARE UPON HIM; for he careth for you."
​

NOW... start RESTING.

When we BELIEVE that God is doing all these things for us, and so much more, THEN... we can stop "doing" things in our own strength, and you can live with ongoing peace, knowing He will freely give you all things. This is where it's not necessary to "pray, prayer, and praying." Yes... PRAYER is first and foremost. But we must enter in to BELIEVE what were praying for. (Not to say you are not... but at times... we may all do)

Perhaps this will help... I PRAYED... I BELIEVE I RECEIVE... I TRUST... I ENTER HIS REST... God ANSWERS... I REJOICE (NOW... Let HIM complete the WORK... (Regardless of what you SEE in your families situation... BELIEVE!)

We are to labor every day to enter His rest. His REST is to BELIEVE that the work is already done because it is a FINISHED WORK," and NOW... we trust in God’s undeserved favor toward us (Grace).

Sometimes... we can find it hard to REST because our human nature is inclined towards worry and restlessness... and we can find ourselves into disbelief and not entering into His REST.

We do this same RESTING in God's FINISHED WORK (The redemptive BLOOD of Christ) for any need, or situation that comes up whether it's for healing, prosperity, or ANY of the promises of God. So, Let's abide in His REST...

Father... I cast this CARE of my family upon you for you care for me. I have done all I can do. I have spoken your Word and I refuse to worry, with doubt and unbelief. I believe, I receive, when I prayed... Right NOW... I trust you and "enter" into your REST. Thank you for renewing my mind with your Word. It is finished...


I hope this can be helpful to someone...

Just a little add on note... Most of the time broken relationships are the fault of ALL people involved and I believe you are aware of that...

Your are blessed...
​

 

[Bluelion]

Honor means respect and treat well.

You're already doing this.

So next order of business is to have nothing to do with Matthew 15:14 types of people. It doesn't matter who they are, it's the Lord's word on what to do with these types of people.

ALSO, scripture says to leave your father and mother and cleave to your wife. (Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Ephesians 5:31)

You now have obligations to your new family BECAUSE you left your father and mother for them. This is scriptural.

You can help your parents and siblings IF and HOW the LORD tells you too, BUT if you're being abused by parents and siblings, this WILL affect your wife and children. You owe it to your wife and children to give them a blessed husband and father, not an abused one.

For the Lord's name sake, the sake of the kingdom of GOD being fully manifest in your life, you need to leave them behind.

If or when they repent, the Lord may tell you how to interact with them on a limited basis, but your new life is with your wife and children.

"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life." - Matthew 19:29, Mark10:29

"Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." - Luke 18:29-30

This means that even if you were single, the Lord would ask you to leave abusive people and follow HIM for the sake of the kingdom of GOD in your life.

Thank you, I see your point. Its hard because i love them, but I am tried of the abuse and my New family does not deserve to see the affect they have on me. I feel it is the right choice to walk away, and I feel God is with me and not hold it against me. Feels good thanks