Hebrews 10:26

[hhodgson]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced from scripture and testimonies (and working on confirming with the Lord) that SBG believers CAN'T "lose" their salvation, but a child of GOD can "walk away from" (reject, turn away from the Lord) and REJECT their salvation.

I hope to provide a scripture presentation ASAP, for why Dad Hagin did hear the Lord correctly on how.

Truthfrees... I also love Kenneth E. Hagin, but... as said, he's not infallible. As far as Dad Hagin hearing the Lord correctly on these things. Only God knows what was correct.

"Three" times you quoted that "The Lord made it clear to Dad Hagin.." How do we know for sure? We can't... that's between him and God. Kenneth Hagin may say these things, but to your question... Yes, he also can be wrong some times and miss God.

1. sinning DOESN'T automatically lose us our salvation (sin can be forgiven by the blood of JESUS).

ALL sin committed... yesterday, today, and tomorrow (not CAN be!), but... has ALREADY been (forever) forgiven. I don't know how Hagin believes in this but we can't lose our salvation because we are chosen and predestined by Him.

2. walking away from the Lord and REFUSING to return to HIM is REJECTING salvation.

I watched the video and have a couple comments... First of all... Yes, Dr. Reggie Anderson apparently grew up attending church as many of us did. We got up with or parents and sang the same songs, etc. In my old church during my youth days... I was very familiar with the alter and got saved about 15 times or more (So I thought).

In those years... I did receive some knowledge of truth, heard some about the gospel of grace. Was enlightened, and tasted a little of His Word. As I said... I was very familiar with the alter. But... was I truly saved? Only God can judge that. Dr. Anderson may have a similar story...

Dr. Anderson... had a radical salvation experience after a dream of being with Jesus that he said, "It changed my spiritual DNA and totally converted me into Christianity." In 1979, I had the same radical experience as he and we all did. Both of our experiences happened many years later from our youth church past. Even though Dr. Anderson earlier turned into a full pledged athiest... God would not let him go, nor me, or any of us. Why? We were all CHOSEN and predestined. And... in all of our lives... before the foundation of the world, God, with "foreknowledge" knew our "end from the beginning" and knew we would be His. Since we have been chosen, He will not let us go. He can't... He seen our end and knew we had accepted Him from the beginning.

That's why He said...

John 15:16 "You have not CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU, and ordained you...

Eph 1:4 "According as he has CHOSEN US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."
​

As far as the second man that obviously died without Jesus Christ. Fear dominated his last seconds. It was apparent that he seen where he was going. Dr. Anderson could not lead him to Jesus. Through foreknowledge, God also knew the "end from the beginning" of this mans life. God only predestined those whom he has chosen. Did he reject Jesus his entire life even though Dr. Anderson said this man had given up on God? There's the question... Did he really know Jesus? Or, was he one of those He never knew...

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... (God knew His people in advance).
​

God knew in advance through foreknowledge (end from the beginning)... that Dr. Anderson would accept Jesus as his Saviour sometime during his life, so he was chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world.

In my opinion... God knew in advance through foreknowledge (end from the beginning)... that the second man did not truly accept Jesus in his lifetime and would die lost, therefore he was not chosen. If he was chosen then Dr. Anderson would have led him to the Lord before he died. That was his last chance. This second man died in fear.

3. a lifestyle of sin proves a person hasn't yet become SBG (and the LORD can say "I NEVER KNEW YOU").

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the DESIRES of your father you want to do...
​

As an add on... If one says they are Christian but have NO DESIRE to give up sin, then salvation is questionable.
​

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

On one point why do you consider 2nd Peter written by Paul.

Oops. Good catch. My bad.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Question: the verse says and they are again entangled with in.,what would be the destiny of the man not getting tangled up ?

The ones who get tangled up have a much harder time finding truth. The ones not getting tangled up don't have the baggage that hinders them.

 

[now faith]

The ones who get tangled up have a much harder time finding truth. The ones not getting tangled up don't have the baggage that hinders them.

Good to have you back,I enjoy the fellowship

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

As an add on... If one says they are Christian but have NO DESIRE to give up sin, then salvation is questionable.

Not even questionable. Good post, Harry.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

I'm becoming increasingly convinced from scripture and testimonies (and working on confirming with the Lord) that SBG believers CAN'T "lose" their salvation, but a child of GOD can "walk away from" (reject, turn away from the Lord) and REJECT their salvation.

I hope to provide a scripture presentation ASAP, for why Dad Hagin did hear the Lord correctly on how:

1. sinning DOESN'T automatically lose us our salvation (sin can be forgiven by the blood of JESUS), but

2. walking away from the Lord and REFUSING to return to HIM is REJECTING salvation, and

3. a lifestyle of sin proves a person hasn't yet become SBG (and the LORD can say "I NEVER KNEW YOU").

For now, here's one of several testimonies on what happens when a Christian turns away from Christ, and refuses to return to HIM:

Heaven Appointments | Dr. Reggie Anderson | It's Supernatural with Sid Roth - YouTube

Timepoint is 21 minutes for man who refused to come back to the Lord.

All I will say is this:

1) I look forward to whatever you can add about Kenneth E. Hagin. It should be interesting, even understanding and admitting that anyone can err.

2) Testimonies like the video you post does zero in swaying my opinion.

3) I'd like to have another discussion, another thread, about both death bed stories about seeing heaven.

 

[now faith]

I truly enjoy Dad Hagins analogy on faith for healing or anything else.

The premise is that if you ask a believer if they are saved,they will testify they are with no doubt
They know heaven is there home.
Then Hagin asks well how do you know can you prove it to me?
They say I know because of his spirit is in me my witness.

So Hagin goes on to say if you have faith beyond a shadow of a doubt you are saved,why
Can't you have faith like that in God's other promises?
For instance by his stripes ye are healed he took on our curse our infirmity.

You know there are people who believe in salvation,but also think for some reason God is punishing
Them with all manner of things,when all along it is their mind the Church and the devil.

It's not God.

This debate is a thin line between a Calvinist theology and complete free will.

But I can give you a example of a big back slider:Adam.

He had all things on earth total unity with God and dominion.

He chose death over obedience.
God covered their nakedness their sin.
As well in the last Adam Christ will not die again.

So what we are looking for is like trying to poke at land mind's.
We are trying to conceive what it would take to ask God to make a third sacrifice.

Revelation 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

On this I propose a question:were our names always in the lambs book of life?
We're they written there up on salvation?
If so Christ clearly shows he is able to blot your name out or confess it before the Father.
You can not blot out what was never there to begin with.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

On this I propose a question:were our names always in the lambs book of life?
We're they written there up on salvation?
If so Christ clearly shows he is able to blot your name out or confess it before the Father.
You can not blot out what was never there to begin with.

For that matter there is:

Psalms 87:5-6 (NET)
5 But it is said of Zion's residents, "Each one of these was born in her, and the sovereign One makes her secure." 6 The Lord writes in the census book of the nations, "This one was born there." (Selah)[/b]​

Now let me ask you a question. If God is omniscient, why would He need to write in a book?

Also, how many books are there?

(And note Who makes "her secure" whom is "born in her.")

 

[now faith]

For that matter there is:

Psalms 87:5-6 (NET)
5 But it is said of Zion's residents, "Each one of these was born in her, and the sovereign One makes her secure." 6 The Lord writes in the census book of the nations, "This one was born there." (Selah)[/b]​

Now let me ask you a question. If God is omniscient, why would He need to write in a book?

Also, how many books are there?

(And note Who makes "her secure" whom is "born in her.")

It is the Lambs book of life.
It is Christ who blots
In John's Gospel our Lord states he is the judge over mankind,yet he judges by the will of the Father.

To my knowledge relevant to our discussion 3.
1 in Daniel 2 in revelation.



Wait for it.....I think there is a gotcha heading my way

 

[Andres88]

​

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MOD HAT OFF​

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

It is the Lambs book of life.
It is Christ who blots
In John's Gospel our Lord states he is the judge over mankind,yet he judges by the will of the Father.

To my knowledge relevant to our discussion 3.
1 in Daniel 2 in revelation.



Wait for it.....I think there is a gotcha heading my way

Who gets blotted out??

Rev 3:5 (KJV)He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.​

"He that overcometh..."

Who overcometh?? This word is in the KJV only 10 times. 8 in Revelation where it speaks of the overcome. 2 times in 1 John where we see the definition. Please post for me who the overcome is and what he/she has overcome.

 

[now faith]

Who gets blotted out??

Rev 3:5 (KJV)He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.​

"He that overcometh..."

Who overcometh?? This word is in the KJV only 10 times. 8 in Revelation where it speaks of the overcome. 2 times in 1 John where we see the definition. Please post for me who the overcome is and what he/she has overcome.

James: 1. 4. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing. 12. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

This should answer both questions.

1 who gets blotted out/ those who do not endure temptation.
2 who overcomes? Those who do endure temptation.


At what point in our existence are our names written in the Lambs book?

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

2 who overcomes? Those who do endure temptation.

That's a big leap to take the meaning of 'overcome' and reassign its biblical meaning.

At what point in our existence are our names written in the Lambs book?

There are multiple books spoken of in the bible.

One that your name can be blotted out of. Perhaps Mark 3:28

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:28 (KJV)​

Another where you name can be written into: perhaps Acts 2:21

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)​

If you allow a saved name to be blotted out then we have a consistency problem with God's promises and the sealing with the Holy Spirit until redemption of a saved person. And God is not inconsistent.

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees... I also love Kenneth E. Hagin, but... as said, he's not infallible. As far as Dad Hagin hearing the Lord correctly on these things. Only God knows what was correct.

"Three" times you quoted that "The Lord made it clear to Dad Hagin.." How do we know for sure? We can't... that's between him and God. Kenneth Hagin may say these things, but to your question... Yes, he also can be wrong some times and miss God.​

If the Lord made something clear to Dad Hagin, HE can make it clear to us as well if we ASK HIM.

That's what I'm doing now: asking the LORD to make scripture truth clear to me.

HE WILL ANSWER us if we ask. (James 1:5)

PRAISE the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY.

It's certainly better than leaning on our own understanding of scripture. (Proverbs 3:5-6)

ALL sin committed... yesterday, today, and tomorrow (not CAN be!), but... has ALREADY been (forever) forgiven. I don't know how Hagin believes in this but we can't lose our salvation because we are chosen and predestined by Him.​

The sins of those who don't accept the LORD JESUS CHRIST aren't forgiven. (John 8:24)

IF a SBG person can renounce salvation, their sins would be back on them (they would die in their sins also).

I want to know from the LORD (confirmed by scripture) IF a SBG person can renounce salvation.

Dad Hagin says the LORD told him a child of GOD said goodbye to the LORD JESUS.

Is a child of GOD SBG? The unsaved JEWS are also called children of GOD I believe.

I have lots of questions and am looking for answers from the LORD.

I'll change my mind to agree with whatever the LORD says (confirmed by scripture).

I have no reason to believe Dad Hagin DIDN'T hear from the LORD.

I KNOW the Lord can confirm HIS word to any of us who ask and wait for HIM to answer with scripture knowledge.

I'm asking the Lord. HE'LL answer. I'm waiting. All is good.

I watched the video and have a couple comments... First of all... Yes, Dr. Reggie Anderson apparently grew up attending church as many of us did. We got up with or parents and sang the same songs, etc. In my old church during my youth days... I was very familiar with the alter and got saved about 15 times or more (So I thought).

In those years... I did receive some knowledge of truth, heard some about the gospel of grace. Was enlightened, and tasted a little of His Word. As I said... I was very familiar with the alter. But... was I truly saved? Only God can judge that. Dr. Anderson may have a similar story...

Dr. Anderson... had a radical salvation experience after a dream of being with Jesus that he said, "It changed my spiritual DNA and totally converted me into Christianity." In 1979, I had the same radical experience as he and we all did. Both of our experiences happened many years later from our youth church past. Even though Dr. Anderson earlier turned into a full pledged athiest... God would not let him go, nor me, or any of us. Why? We were all CHOSEN and predestined. And... in all of our lives... before the foundation of the world, God, with "foreknowledge" knew our "end from the beginning" and knew we would be His. Since we have been chosen, He will not let us go. He can't... He seen our end and knew we had accepted Him from the beginning.

That's why He said...

John 15:16 "You have not CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU, and ordained you...

Eph 1:4 "According as he has CHOSEN US in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."​

SBG is powerful. I fully see this from scripture.

Reggie stopped believing there was a GOD.

This isn't the same as someone who KNOWS GOD is real and RENOUNCES or REJECTS the LORD.

Dad Hagin said the LORD told him a baby Christian can't do what the Pastor's wife did.

I started the SBG thread because I was looking for how far we wof can go in agreement.

I thought Dad Hagin's words were encouraging because it means we wof are more in agreement than we think.

As far as the second man that obviously died without Jesus Christ. Fear dominated his last seconds. It was apparent that he seen where he was going. Dr. Anderson could not lead him to Jesus. Through foreknowledge, God also knew the "end from the beginning" of this mans life. God only predestined those whom he has chosen. Did he reject Jesus his entire life even though Dr. Anderson said this man had given up on God? There's the question... Did he really know Jesus? Or, was he one of those He never knew...

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... (God knew His people in advance).
​

God knew in advance through foreknowledge (end from the beginning)... that Dr. Anderson would accept Jesus as his Saviour sometime during his life, so he was chosen and predestined before the foundation of the world.

In my opinion... God knew in advance through foreknowledge (end from the beginning)... that the second man did not truly accept Jesus in his lifetime and would die lost, therefore he was not chosen. If he was chosen then Dr. Anderson would have led him to the Lord before he died. That was his last chance. This second man died in fear.

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the DESIRES of your father you want to do...
​

As an add on... If one says they are Christian but have NO DESIRE to give up sin, then salvation is questionable.
​

NOTE Reggie's words. He said he couldn't lead the man BACK to CHRIST.

He made it clear this man was once with CHRIST.

This story would match what Dad Hagin heard from the Lord.

The type of death this man encountered matches the type non-believers have.

 

[Truthfrees]

All I will say is this:

1) I look forward to whatever you can add about Kenneth E. Hagin. It should be interesting, even understanding and admitting that anyone can err.

2) Testimonies like the video you post does zero in swaying my opinion.

3) I'd like to have another discussion, another thread, about both death bed stories about seeing heaven.

Anyone can err for sure.

Did Dad Hagin err in his encounter with the Lord?

The Lord and scripture will make it all clear.

There's lots of scripture to be prayed through and discussed with the LORD.

I was thinking of starting 2 more threads:

1. Scripture for SBG with an out: all the scriptures used to support saved people rejecting salvation.

2. Scripture for SBG with NO WAY OUT: all the scriptures used to support a new creation being forever secure.

I was trying to do this on my own, but it's too huge for me, and each wof probably knows of good scriptures to support their side of this question.

Another thread on deathbed stories would be interesting.

As would a thread on what is SBG? What changes happen when a person is SBG?

All good topics.

I'm still looking for how far we wof can go in agreement.

I still think it would be good for us to lock that down, because our SBG is different than Calvin's ideas.

 

[Truthfrees]

Please take john 6 the part about the bread of life into account when you complete your post.

also some question.

can a child of God reject what he has already chosen?

can a child be unborn?

Would God let His beloved son die in vain for some one?

Is the choice we make between good and evil, God or satan a choice we must make over and over again, or is it we chose God once and then try to walk in His light?

What part of John 6 were you meaning?

It's a huge chapter.

Good questions.

I'm asking the same ones.

I have another testimony I was going to post that matches Dad Hagin's talk with the LORD.

Before these testimonies, I couldn't fathom any one WANTING to leave the LORD.

I know I'm not interested.

Without the Lord there's NOTHING ELSE for me.

I know what kind of life I had before the LORD, and I certainly have no desire to have that mess back.

The LORD'S love, favor, blessing, protection, grace, faith, righteousness, ability, etc, is NECESSARY for daily living.

I can't imagine giving up ANY of what I have now.

There's nothing I want more than what I have in the LORD.

In fact, I'm wanting more of the LORD.

I want to go DEEPER into fellowship with HIM.

Less of my own thinking, ability, decisions, strength, faith, energy.

I want to lay aside what's mine (comes from me) and take what's HIS (use what comes from the LORD).

 

[Truthfrees]

But the same questions could be asked of the devil.

He had it good being with the LORD, in HIS presence continually.

Why would he ever decide to give it all up?

What made him think it would be better elsewhere WITHOUT the Lord?

I can't imagine why he did what he did.

Same as a SBG person (IF a SBG person can reject salvation).

Why would they want to give it up?

What do they think they'd be gaining?

 

[Truthfrees]

We see this played out in judas. It does not just speak to hearing the word but the understanding Knowing the truth and then rejecting it. It speak of a point where an unbeliever sees the truth Knows the way is God that God is Good and then rejects God knowing full well the truth.

I find in John 6 we see salvation is secure.

37 However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them. 38 For I have come down from heaven to do the will of God who sent me, not to do my own will. 39 And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day. 40 For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

Found the part of John 6 you were talking about.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

Same as a SBG person (IF a SBG person can reject salvation).

Absolutely NOT the same. Major differences between the creation which is the angels (and devils) and that which is mankind.

1 Corinthians 6:3a
Know ye not that we shall judge angels?​

 

[now faith]

That's a big leap to take the meaning of 'overcome' and reassign its biblical meaning.



There are multiple books spoken of in the bible.

One that your name can be blotted out of. Perhaps Mark 3:28

Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:28 (KJV)​

Another where you name can be written into: perhaps Acts 2:21

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)​

If you allow a saved name to be blotted out then we have a consistency problem with God's promises and the sealing with the Holy Spirit until redemption of a saved person. And God is not inconsistent.

I have to disagree with the big leap.
The context is the same,[overcome ] what?

The logical thought would be to overcome something that would manifest sin.
Enduring temptation ] today could mean many things but Bible language it is temptation to sin.
Keep in mind my position on OSAS is neutral.

Some of the verses that seem to validate loss of salvation could be proprietary to the Jews.
Possibly warnings,due to the influence of Gnostic Jews.

You can read Paul's appeal in Galatians{oh foolish Galatians who hath bewitched you}

The warning of Sabbath worship,New moons,and worship of Angels is found in Collossions.

But you did touch on something I believe should be cautioned.
The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Looking at how the offence was done is the danger.
They said Christ did his miracles by Satan's power.

Today we have suspect side shows in religion,but we must use caution if people are witnessing miracles.
I detest some they sicken me with promises of prayer for a seed amount.

But I will not say anything to compromise this warning.

In our Faith we are called many things and endure accusations,but all that truly understand
WOF know our hearts for the Lord.

THANK YOU MY BROTHER FROM ANOTHER MOTHER!