Hebrew roots movement

[S Walch]

The site that you posted above is a major contributor to Hebrew roots myths in my opinion. I wouuld advise that you study the Hebrew language. It is written as Yod shewa Hey which is YeH.

יְהוֹשֻׁעַ

But how can you be 100% sure that it's written as a Yod with a sheva under it?

You just posted the hebrew letters in the way that robski said:

י - Yod
ה - Hey
וֹ - Vav
שׁ - Shin
ע - Ayin

And remember, Hebrew didn't originally have the Masoretic vowel pointings, and who's to say that the Masorites were the be-all and end-all in vowel pointings regarding the name of Joshua/Jesus/Yahushua?

Jesus and Joshua should actually be the exact same name - fact.

This can be seen in the KJV, when they incorrectly put "Jesus" where "Joshua son of nun" should have been in the New testament:

Hebrews 4:8 - KJV
For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 - NIV
For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.

Jesus/Joshua = synonymous.

In hebrew, there are actually two different spellings of the name "Joshua/Yehoshua/Yahushua"

Yod hey vav shin vav ayin - As seen in Deuteronomy 3:21:

וְאֶת-יְהוֹשׁוּעַ צִוֵּיתִי, בָּעֵת הַהִוא לֵאמֹר: עֵינֶיךָ הָרֹאֹת, אֵת כָּל-אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵיכֶם לִשְׁנֵי הַמְּלָכִים הָאֵלֶּה--כֵּן-יַעֲשֶׂה יְהוָה לְכָל-הַמַּמְלָכוֹת, אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה עֹבֵר שָׁמָּה

And the other is Yod Hey Vav Shin Ayin, as seen in Judges 2:7

וַיַּעַבְדוּ הָעָם אֶת-יְהוָה, כֹּל יְמֵי יְהוֹשֻׁעַ; וְכֹל יְמֵי הַזְּקֵנִים, אֲשֶׁר הֶאֱרִיכוּ יָמִים אַחֲרֵי יְהוֹשׁוּעַ, אֲשֶׁר רָאוּ אֵת כָּל-מַעֲשֵׂה יְהוָה הַגָּדוֹל, אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה לְיִשְׂרָאֵל

And that's it.

There is of course the Aramaic version of Joshua/Yahushua/Yehoshua - Yod Shin Vav Ayin - as found in Ezra 3:2:

וַיָּקָם יֵשׁוּעַ בֶּן-יוֹצָדָק וְאֶחָיו הַכֹּהֲנִים, וּזְרֻבָּבֶל בֶּן-שְׁאַלְתִּיאֵל וְאֶחָיו, וַיִּבְנוּ, אֶת-מִזְבַּח אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל--לְהַעֲלוֹת עָלָיו, עֹלוֹת, כַּכָּתוּב, בְּתוֹרַת מֹשֶׁה אִישׁ-הָאֱלֹהִים

As we see in this verse, it is translated as:

Then stood up Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt-offerings thereon, as it is written in the Law of Moses the man of God.

What we know is that this "Jeshua, the Son of Jozadak" is actually the same person as "Joshua, the Son of Jozadak" whom of which is mentioned in Zechariah 6:11:

וְלָקַחְתָּ כֶסֶף-וְזָהָב, וְעָשִׂיתָ עֲטָרוֹת; וְשַׂמְתָּ, בְּרֹאשׁ יְהוֹשֻׁעַ בֶּן-יְהוֹצָדָק--הַכֹּהֵן הַגָּדוֹל

So, the Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ is just a shortened form of the Hebrew יְהוֹשֻׁוֹעַ , just with the hey and the first Vav/Waw missing.

But also, as can be seen from the Masoretic vowel pointing - they always seem to stick a sheva under (that's the two little dots under the Yod for those who don't know Masoretic vowel pointing) the Yod when the hebrew is "Yod Hey ...".

But this only seems to appear at the beginning of words, but is this always true when Yod and hey are together at the end of words?

Lets take Jeremiah for example.

Jeremiah in Hebrew is written Yod Resh Mem Yod Hey, which is vowel pointed as "Yirmeyah".

In the Masoretic Hebrew, they stick a different vowel pointer at the end of Jeremiah - Yod Resh Mem Yod Hey.

Instead of sticking a sheva under the last Yod, (the sheva under the hebrew consonant gives either the "e" sound or in many cases, is just silent) the Masorites stuck what's known as a "Qamet" under it instead (it looks like a small 'T'), as seen in Jeremiah 1:1:

דִּבְרֵי יִרְמְיָהוּ, בֶּן-חִלְקִיָּהוּ, מִן-הַכֹּהֲנִים אֲשֶׁר בַּעֲנָתוֹת, בְּאֶרֶץ בִּנְיָמִן

Now, the Qamet vowel pointing doesn't give an "e" sound - it gives an "a" sound - hence Yirmeyah.

This isn't the only name that ends with a Yod, Hey that they designate a Qamet under the hebrew consontant:

Elijah/Eliyah - Hebrew: Aleph, Lamed, Yod, Hey.

As seen in 1 kings 17:1, the Masorites designate the Consonants as follows:

וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלִיָּהוּ הַתִּשְׁבִּי מִתֹּשָׁבֵי גִלְעָד

Again, it has a Qamet under the consonant "Yod"

It is also exactly the same for Nehemiah - Nun, Chet, Mem, Yod, Hey - From Ezra 2:2 - נְחֶמְיָה

Isaiah/Yasha'yah - Yod, Shin, Ayin, Yod, Hey - From Isaiah 1:1 - יְשַׁעְיָה

Basically, all these names have one thing in common - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Nehemiah, Joshua - They all are contractions of different Hebrew words, but the only word that they have in common is the Name of God - the Tetragrammation, - Yod, Hey, Vav, Hey (Strongs #3068/3050), now commenly designated as Yahweh.

I'm sure everyones read at least something regarding how the Masorites designated the vowels of the Hebrew word adonai over the tetragrammation consonants - saying that YHWH should be pronounced YeHoWeH - leading up the "name" - "Jehovah" - which most scholars nowadays will tell you is in correct.

But when the tetragrammation followed the Hebrew word adonai, the masorites stuck the vowel pointings for the Hebrew word Elohiym there instead, leading to YeHoViH

Seeing as though all the names mentioned above contain the Tetragrammation (#3068/3050) and that those endin with it end with -yah, and that Yahweh starts with - Yah - it has actually been the common consensus that the masorites also didn't vocalise the names beginning with Yah (such as Yahushua/Joshua, Yahuseph/Joseph, Yahuchanon/John etc etc) using the Qamet, as it would have been too close to the pronounciation of the name Yahweh, so they followed their own vowel pointing for Yahweh (Yehovah) and used a sheva like they did for the Tetragramation.

Futher proof for this is seen when the shortened version of God's name - Yahh (#3050) comes up in Hebrew, such as in Exodus 15:2, when the consonants Yod and Hey are vocalised with a Qamet under the Yod - עָזִּי וְזִמְרָת יָהּ "My strength is Yah".

As basically every single lexicon with tell you that the name Joshua in a cotraction of "Yah" and "Yasha", it is quite to the point that the Masoretic YeHoSHuA for Joshua should actually be YaHuSHuA, because Joshua and therefore Jesus' name means "Yahweh is Salvation" or "Yahweh Saves" there is no reason to think, other than if we trust the masoretic vowel pointing for the name, that the hebrew consonants Yod, hey, Vav, Shin, Ayin, should be pronounced YeHoSHuA rather than YaHuSHuA.

I will of course answer any questions on this issue, or if people think I haven't explained it all that well and want me to use far more coherant English words to get my point across

 

[torahgrandma]

28) The Messianic seal or Grafted in symbol was used by first century believers and is authentic.

Quote:

The “grafted in” symbol is a forgery, as there is no record of the Jewish people using the Magen David until many centuries later. The hexagram was an ancient magical symbol that was used by many cultures in the ancient near east, and is still used by some groups who practice magic even today.

quote:

The Magen David (shield of David, or as it is more commonly known, the Star of David) is the symbol most commonly associated with Judaism today, but it is actually a relatively new Jewish symbol. It is supposed to represent the shape of King David's shield (or perhaps the emblem on it), but there is really no support for that claim in any early rabbinic literature. In fact, the symbol is so rare in early Jewish literature and artwork that art dealers suspect forgery if they find the symbol in early works.

Read the complete article here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/star.html


Here is a statement from the former curator of the Israel Antiquities Authority whose name is Joe Zias. He has been the spokesperson on major shows debunking various forgeries in Israel. He says that the “Messianic seal” or “grafted in” symbol is a fake:

Re: [ANE-2] Re: archaeology question

I have seen the object in question for sale on several web sites and was surprised that anyone would take it seriously as an ancient artifact. It clearly is made for the tourist mkt which is conned too easily for these trinkets. As for the six pointed 'star of David' ,from time to time tourists in the mkts of Jerusalem would approach us with coins they had purchased from shops showing a modern day bronze coin, I believe from Morocco, showing the star. Sellers then told the naive tourist that it was of great value as it had the Islamic script and 'star of David' together. Basically it was worthless.

Joe Zias

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/message/1323


This post appeared on the ANE forum, which is a scholarly forum which addresses archaeological finds in Israel and other areas in the middle east.

 

[torahgrandma]

But how can you be 100% sure that it's written as a Yod with a sheva under it?

In Biblical Hebrew, YeH is used as a prefix, while YaH is used as a suffix. You can check this in any Hebrew Lexicon.

 

[S Walch]

In Biblical Hebrew, YeH is used as a prefix, while YaH is used as a suffix. You can check this in any Hebrew Lexicon.

But as explained, that doesn't hold true for when Yod Hey is by itself (such as Exodus 15:2 mentioned above) and scholars reject that the Masorites were correct saying that it should be Yeh at the beginning of Yahweh (therefore the prefex) and should actually be Yah as the prefex.

Therefore it's quite logical to point out that the Masorites were probably wrong the rest of the time Yod and Hey were used as the prefex in other Hebrew names.

 

[ContraMundum]

One thing I think S Walch you may have come across is that Hebrew is not like Koine or Latin- it is not a dead language. What I'm saying is that the arguments over things like how a Qamet should sound are a little redundant when you're familiar with the environment and the language as spoken. There are different pronounciations and different renderings for words in many cases throughout the worldwide community.

What I'm saying is that the vowels are only there in a somewhat loose sense (eg. a guideline), and even then they aren't always spoken the same. You learn exactly how a word is said without the vowels through practice in the community.

 

[torahgrandma]

I would have to agree - this seems not to be a thread of open discussion but one that has a very agressive OP who gives the impression that they have a large disliking for Messianic's. To me the OP seems to have more of an attacking agenda than one for open discussion.

Supply some proof and it will rapidly turn into a discussion. Please try it.

 

[torahgrandma]

But as explained, that doesn't hold true for when Yod Hey is by itself (such as Exodus 15:2 mentioned above) and scholars reject that the Masorites were correct saying that it should be Yeh at the beginning of Yahweh (therefore the prefex) and should actually be Yah as the prefex.

Therefore it's quite logical to point out that the Masorites were probably wrong the rest of the time Yod and Hey were used as the prefex in other Hebrew names.

Every Biblical Hebrew name with the theophoric element prefix of Yod Hey is rendered as YeH. Every Biblical Hebrew name with the theophoric element of Yod Hey as a suffix is rndered as YaH. Check it out for yourself.

 

[torahgrandma]

There is no point - you know what you know and that is that. It would be like having a discussion with a wall, obviously the wall would have better manners.

When we can't supply facts, we turn to insults. What would your university professors say about that? OK...back to the topic at hand.

 

[torahgrandma]

I would have to agree - this seems not to be a thread of open discussion but one that has a very agressive OP who gives the impression that they have a large disliking for Messianic's.

I dislike "truths" and "facts" that can not be proven Biblically. If some of the Messianic or Hebrew roots teachings fall under that category, then they will be discussed. You are welcome to dispute my assertions anytime by presenting some factual evidence to the contrary.

 

[S Walch]

Every Biblical Hebrew name with the theophoric element prefix of Yod Hey is rendered as YeH. Every Biblical Hebrew name with the theophoric element of Yod Hey as a suffix is YaH. Check it out for yourself.

But as stated for the third time - that isn't true when it comes to Yahweh - when Yod hey is the Prefex, it is vocalised Yah, not Yeh.

Plus we're only going off what the Masorites decided what Yod Hey should be vocalised at the beginning of words.

As they were wrong with the Prefex of Yod Hey for Yahweh, and seeing as though every single Hebrew name that uses Yod, Hey at the beginning is from a contraction of Yahweh and a different Hebrew word, if the Yod and Hey of Yahweh is actually vocalised with an A and not an E, then also those other names that have a Yod and Hey as a prefex should also be vocalised with an A and not and E, following the vocalisation of Yahweh.

There's a reason why Yahushua means "Yahweh saves" - why on earth would it be pronounced "Yehoshua" when it's a contraction of Yahweh and Yasha - both words not having an E sound at the beginning of the word.

The Masoretic vowel pointing for the prefex yod and hey is wrong - it shouldn't be an E, it should be an A following the name Yahweh.

 

[jgonz]

There is no point - you know what you know and that is that. It would be like having a discussion with a wall, obviously the wall would have better manners.

I have to agree.

 

[torahgrandma]

I would have to agree - this seems not to be a thread of open discussion but one that has a very agressive OP who gives the impression that they have a large disliking for Messianic's. To me the OP seems to have more of an attacking agenda than one for open discussion.

Robski,

I now understand why this thread makes you so angry. Here is some of your "scholarship" from your blog:

venting with purpose...

So discovering all this has been an interesting ride... But I want to make you guys think too...

Some things:

"the LORD" has a Hewbrew translation, translated into Hebrew it is "baal" YHWH was removed 7000 and replaced in the bible 6868 times with "the LORD" and the other 132 times it was just removed.

"Christian" Acctually means Drugged one - or "Druggie" in our moden society - meaning "Christ" = "Drugged" When we were first called that in Antioch it was not a nice name we had decided on but a word that the Greeks new implying that we were on something. The word "Christ" inst actually Yahushua's name... then again nore is Jesus, but thats another one.

Yahushua was actually not nailed to a cross. It was an upright pole or stake... now although at first this seems like it has no baring and it does not really matter, as the fact that he MADE the sacrifice was the big thing... its just when you realise that the cross is a pagan symbol of sun god worship and realise its satanic ties it gets worrying.

the name "Jesus" started when Constantine decided he was a Christian after a vision in the sun of a burning cross and the word "rise and conquor" (he still worshiped his pagan gods, mainly Jupiter, managed to drown his wife in boiling water and behead his son, but he WAS a Christian, honest... (WHATEVER!) He conveniently became a "Christian" because he saw the speed at which the early church grew, to keep his power, he had to alow it to happen. So instead of letting it explode he boxed it, moving the feasts to the closest pagan festival... Easter and Christmas included. After that he decided to re-write the devine inspired scriptures and replace the Place holders the inspired writers used for YHWH's name, Yahushua's name and the Holy/Set-Apart Spirits name. This was impossible because Greek has no Y H and W sounding letters... thats not all but there is too much to go into.

After that the Church was born. A religious and imposed structure and set of believes, forcing God out and putting man in. Then came the Vulgate - translated from the greek constintine version of events, they made up more stupid translations for the now Latin translation of the name of Yahushua, Yahuweh and Holy/Set-Apart Spirit. After many years of the Roman Catholic church not alowing bibles in homes, or anywhere in the hands of the people and definitly not alowing them translated into English so common folk could read them, it was King James who swooped in and destroyed it more.

The translators for James worked mainly from the Vulgate's bad translations and started to add little bits here and there, including renaming a whole New testiment book to the name of the king, AND changing the already currupt Latin name for Yahushua and shortening it, dropping a few letters and chaning l's to J's. Jesus was formed because King James like the idea of the "hero" of the story be like his name. James, Jesus. You should also read the front of that bible, it almost makes me sick.

Over time, religion has done the one thing it always does, destroys the message of Yahuweh to His people - not only that but we have forgotten the name of our God! Although we constantly sing how great his name is and how powerful and that if we call on this name we will be saved... we have forgotten it!

Remeber and use his name, it is Yahuweh, dont be spoon fed by people who teach from corrupt scripture, reach out and do some research! Because, if you want me advice, it might just save your life!



And there is so much more:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3164248

right here on our very own Christian forums......

I rest my case.

 

[Robskiwarrior]

naa this thread doesnt make me angry, and a blog is ment for venting But if you like to dig up stuff on people thats fine. I will admit - maybe 6 months ago I would have been angry, but not anymore.

Getting angry there is no point, just burns you up inside... but im sure you are feeling that right now anyway, it seems like you are very angry.

Feel free to read my blog guys, atleast I will get more people reading it now then when I actually wanted people to read it lol

 

[torahgrandma]

But as stated for the third time - that isn't true when it comes to Yahweh - when Yod hey is the Prefex, it is vocalised Yah, not Yeh.

Plus we're only going off what the Masorites decided what Yod Hey should be vocalised at the beginning of words.

As they were wrong with the Prefex of Yod Hey for Yahweh, and seeing as though every single Hebrew name that uses Yod, Hey at the beginning is from a contraction of Yahweh and a different Hebrew word, if the Yod and Hey of Yahweh is actually vocalised with an A and not an E, then also those other names that have a Yod and Hey as a prefex should also be vocalised with an A and not and E, following the vocalisation of Yahweh.

There's a reason why Yahushua means "Yahweh saves" - why on earth would it be pronounced "Yehoshua" when it's a contraction of Yahweh and Yasha - both words not having an E sound at the beginning of the word.

The Masoretic vowel pointing for the prefex yod and hey is wrong - it shouldn't be an E, it should be an A following the name Yahweh.

SWalch,

I see that you and Robski are friends: From your page:

quote:

"Current Prayer Requests:
Is that Yahuweh continues to guide me to all truths, and that he'll lead you to them as well. "



Are you guys closet sacred namers?

 

[torahgrandma]

naa this thread doesnt make me angry, and a blog is ment for venting But if you like to dig up stuff on people thats fine. I will admit - maybe 6 months ago I would have been angry, but not anymore.

Getting angry there is no point, just burns you up inside... but im sure you are feeling that right now anyway, it seems like you are very angry.

Feel free to read my blog guys, atleast I will get more people reading it now then when I actually wanted people to read it lol

Happy as a lark. Thanks for caring enough to ask.

 

[S Walch]

So, you can't answer me, and then proceed to try to slander us by trying to tie us to a cult.

Very good. We Applaud you.

And no, we're not "Sacred namers" - We have no ties to any sort of cult, thanks.

 

[Robskiwarrior]

Happy as a lark. Thanks for caring enough to ask.

lol no we are not sacred namers, and yes we are friends "IRL" as the internet acronym goes.

You don't seem very happy though. Even with your emotes

 

[torahgrandma]

So, you can't answer me, and then proceed to try to slander us by trying to tie us to a cult.

Very good. We Applaud you.

And no, we're not "Sacred namers" - We have no ties to any sort of cult, thanks.

I already gave you a brief answer. Would you like a dissertation. BTW, the rendering YAHWEH can not be found in any Hebrew Biblical manuscript. It is a guess.

 

[torahgrandma]

I have to agree.

Thanks J. Did you guys ever get it resolved if the new covenant is here yet, or if PaRDeS is a good way to interpret the Scriptures over on MJ yet? If not, stick around over here, because both topics will be discussed from a Scriptural perspective with absolutely no talmudic references.

 

[S Walch]

I already gave you a brief answer. Would you like a dissertation. BTW, the rendering YAHWEH can not be found in any Hebrew Biblical manuscript. It is a guess.

There was also no Masoretic vowel pointings in any biblical manuscript before around 1000 CE.

What's your point?

If we can't even vocalise the Name of God, then we can't vocalise a single word of the Old Testament.

And please, PM me your "dissertation" of prefex's and suffex's.

I'm sure it's no different to the other explinations I've seen regarding prefex's and suffex's in Hebrew.