Hebrew roots movement

[Charles YTK]

If you can find a way to spread this thread out on your garden, you will get Tomatoes the size of watermellons and carrots the size of telephone poles.

 

[torahgrandma]

If you can find a way to spread this thread out on your garden, you will get Tomatoes the size of watermellons and carrots the size of telephone poles.

Did you miss debate 101 at the university? What you posted doesn't even fall under definition of debate and is totally off topic. Or maybe you are disgruntled because on the CF side, they do not pull threads and eliminate posts as a way to not have to answer hard facts with supporting evidence against them. Welcome to the real world of debate Charles.

 

[insaneinthebrain]

A few of these are easily answered, and since there are good resources out there, I am not going to re invent the "wheel":

1) Jesus is zeus or some female pagan deity.

5) YAHshua is the "true" name of Jesus.

9) None of the apostles spoke any Greek. (because it was a pagan language)

http://www.seekgod.ca/htwhatsinaname.htm


4) God is a pagan name.

http://www.seekgod.ca/htname.htm

You know what's fun? Condemning an entire movement due to some whacked out fringe elements in that movement. Applying the same standard to other parts of the faith means we should discard Protestantism entirely due to all of the dishonest Televangelists that have come along over the past several decades.

Wherever there are people in need there will be people looking to exploit that need for their own personal gain. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[torahgrandma]

You know what's fun? Condemning an entire movement due to some whacked out fringe elements in that movement. Applying the same standard to other parts of the faith means we should discard Protestantism entirely due to all of the dishonest Televangelists that have come along over the past several decades.

Wherever there are people in need there will be people looking to exploit that need for their own personal gain. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Not condemning anything. Testing teachings against Scripture. Scripture is fully capable of exposing the weeds.

 

[jgonz]

Really? so you have never heard the argument that Christmas is pagan, and therefore people need to do what Jesus did? I have heard it countless times.

The question should not be whether I am anti Jewish (which I am not).

A better question would be why are all of these people, many of them non-Jews practicing these things without checking the Scriptures to see if it is so.

The standard for believers should be, if it goes against Christ then immediately avoid it at all cost, if it doesn't go against Him, then check the Scriptures to see if it is so.

Of course Christmas is pagan-based. But that doesn't mean that a person HAS to celebrate Hanukkah... Hanukkah is Not, and should never be, a "replacement" for Christmas.

The Messianics I know are Extremely careful to check with Scripture before keeping a feast (or whatever)... and some I know Don't keep Hanukkah because they're not 100% sure they should. The debate on what day to celebrate Passover happens every year... I think it's wonderful that people are searching out the Scripture and listening to the L-rd in these areas.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

You know what's fun? Condemning an entire movement due to some whacked out fringe elements in that movement. Applying the same standard to other parts of the faith means we should discard Protestantism entirely due to all of the dishonest Televangelists that have come along over the past several decades.

Wherever there are people in need there will be people looking to exploit that need for their own personal gain. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This is absolutely correct. In fairness, there are fringe elements in each tradition, including my own.

I do see an undercurrent in MJ which I find problematic, however, and that is the notion that the Gentiles led the Church away from Her roots, and, de facto, into error. I find this factually and philosophically problematic.

By way of example, I have a friend from my old Charismatic days. He is now in a Messianic group. He was informing me how Greeks focus on philosophy, and the Jews on obedience. I had to ask him, where has that obdeience been in the last 2000 years?

The facts of the matter are fa more complex than slogans and sound bites. In short, Eastern Orthodoxy retains a decidedly Semitic flavor not found in the Western Church- and I truly appreciate this flavor, fo I know that salvation came to us through the Holy Hebrew ancestors. When Greeks were worshipping idols, and my Scandinavian ancestors hunting caribou with spears and worshipping spirits, the Jews were worshipping the one true God.

But then Paul entered Greece, then Asia Minor. Thomas entered India, and the Eunuch went back to Ethiopia. The Body became truly "many nations," as was prophesied regarding Abraham.

That the ECFs became antiSemitic is undeniable. The reason why is important, however- the Rabbinic Jews cused and anathemized the Christian sect. From that point on, the two traditions vied for the hearts and minds of the remaining Pagans. Over time, that whih was good in Hebrew tradition was preserved in Orthodox Tradition. There is much to learn, however, by studying the Semitic roots.

But, as you said, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Gentile contribution to the Chuch, so often villified by Messianics, is the baby that need not be thrown out.

 

[SGM4HIM]

Regarding original post.
In the Gospel of John Jesus showed up at the temple on the Festival of Lights. Why would John mention this?

Perhaps he wanted us to see that Jesus is the Light of the World etc. Other symbolism_
The ninth candle, or shammash ("servant") light — usually set in the center, and raised above the others — is used to light the others.

 

[christianmomof3]

I agree with the other poster~ why all the anti-Jewish foundation threads?

I also wonder about that. While the "facts" about Messianic beliefs that you share may be true about some Messianic groups, they are most likely not representative of all Messianic groups since the Messianic groups vary in their beliefs and practices.

Really? so you have never heard the argument that Christmas is pagan, and therefore people need to do what Jesus did? I have heard it countless times.
The question should not be whether I am anti Jewish (which I am not).
A better question would be why are all of these people, many of them non-Jews practicing these things without checking the Scriptures to see if it is so.
The standard for believers should be, if it goes against Christ then immediately avoid it at all cost, if it doesn't go against Him, then check the Scriptures to see if it is so.

I celebrate Chanukkah because I am Jewish (although I am now a born again Christian and not Messianic, by the way) and I see nothing wrong with the holiday. You quoted from the book of Maccabees, but the Jews do not use that book, nor do Protestant Christians.

I agree that we all should follow the scriptures and follow the Lord.

This is absolutely correct. In fairness, there are fringe elements in each tradition, including my own.

I do see an undercurrent in MJ which I find problematic, however, and that is the notion that the Gentiles led the Church away from Her roots, and, de facto, into error. I find this factually and philosophically problematic.
...
But, as you said, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Gentile contribution to the Chuch, so often villified by Messianics, is the baby that need not be thrown out.

It seems to me that some gentile Christian groups have tried to ignore or throw out the "Jewish baby" and many Messianics seem to be going too far the other way throwing out the "gentile baby". Neither extreme is likely to be correct Biblically.

Regarding original post.
In the Gospel of John Jesus showed up at the temple on the Festival of Lights. Why would John mention this?

Perhaps he wanted us to see that Jesus is the Light of the World etc. Other symbolism_
The ninth candle, or shammash ("servant") light — usually set in the center, and raised above the others — is used to light the others.

Hmm, I like that.

 

[Robskiwarrior]

Actually, it is not factual. Here is an article that discusses this error:

http://www.seekgod.ca/htwhatsinaname.htm

Yahushua is the English transliteration of the Hebrew letters Yod, Hey, Vav, Shin, Ayin – YHWSHA, which when vocalised into English becomes Yahushua.

http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/transliteration.html

and yes we can throw links from the same level of viable source back and forth - but Yahshua/Yahushua or Yeshua - the correct, and most accurate translation for the name would have been the same, Joshua and not Jesus.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Exd&chapter=17&verse=9&strongs=03091&page= <-- Joshua
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Mat&chapter=1&verse=16&strongs=2424&page= <-- "Jesus" -- of Hebrew origin 03091

and King James, I never said he changed it.

 

[torahgrandma]

Yahushua is the English transliteration of the Hebrew letters Yod, Hey, Vav, Shin, Ayin &#8211; YHWSHA, which when vocalised into English becomes Yahushua.

http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/transliteration.html

The site that you posted above is a major contributor to Hebrew roots myths in my opinion. I wouuld advise that you study the Hebrew language. It is written as Yod shewa Hey which is YeH.

&#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1465;&#1513;&#1473;&#1467;&#1506;&#1463;

 

[Tavita]

A better question would be why are all of these people, many of them non-Jews practicing these things without checking the Scriptures to see if it is so.

I found, after being involved with the Hebrew Roots movement for a few years, that one of the reasons people leave the christian church to join is because of a lack of good deep teaching within the church, and also an absence of teaching people to live by faith (and also a lack of teaching people to search the scriptures for themselves). People want meat and are still fed milk within many denominations. The Hebrew Roots movement, which shouldn't be confused with the Messianic movement, seems to offer, on the surface, the kind of meat our sometimes very hungry hearts are looking for. However, most of it is deceptive and there is a lot of false teaching, which also lays a heavy burden on people.

I did find that while I was involved in the movement I did enjoy the teachings of the Messianic movement as well. But it was primarily the Hebrew Roots teachings that gave me the heavy burden. I have to say that this in no way makes me think any less of the church's Hebrew Roots.. I hope you know what I mean. I love all things Jewish, and I believe that's also one reason I was so easily enticed into the movement.

 

[Tavita]

The site that you posted above is a major contributor to Hebrew roots myths in my opinion. I wouuld advise that you study the Hebrew language. It is written as Yod shewa Hey which is YeH.

Amen! This site with it's books did me the most damage!

 

[torahgrandma]

Amen! This site with it's books did me the most damage!

Thank you for your testimony. I would like to ask you if there are any myths in particular that helped lead you astray and why?

 

[torahgrandma]

6) Jesus followed the oral law.

7) Jesus quoted the oral law.

8) The "613" were given to Moses. (along with the Torah)

Quote:

Exodus 24
3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the ordinances: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD has said will we do. 4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you concerning all these words.

Joshua 8
33 And all Israel, and its elders, and authorities, and its judges were standing on this side, the alien as well as the native, and on that of the ark, before the priests, the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, half of them in front of Mount Gerizim, and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded at the first, that they should bless the people of Israel.
34 And afterward he read all the Words of the Law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that was written in the book of the Law.
35 There was not a word of all that Moses commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel, and the women, and the little ones, and the aliens that walked among them.


Exodus 24 tells us that Moses told the people all the words of The LORD, as well as all the ordinances. It also tells us that he wrote all of the words. In Joshua 8 we are told that Joshua read all of the words. If Joshua read all of the words as indicated in the passage above, then it would indicate that they were written down at that time, so according to Scripture, all was written down at the time of the book of Joshua, which is dated between 15-13 bce, which is roughly the same time period that the book of Exodus was recorded. This is long before 2-5 ce (seventeen centuries + -) when the Talmud or Oral Torah is recorded as being written down.

 

[torahgrandma]

21) It is a renewed covenant, not new.

22) The New Covenant is not here yet.

Quote:

Is it the New or Renewed covenant?

Some Hebrew roots “scholars” are teaching that it is a renewed covenant, not new. (Brit Chadasah) Brit means covenant, which is the equivalent for the word testament. Chadash in the context of Jeremiah 31:31 does not mean renewed but new, and there are two separate and distinct forms of chadash listed in the Hebrew lexicon for new and renewed. The Biblical Hebrew word for renewed is "mechudash", the pu`al particple from the root (shoresh) chet-dalet-shin. "Chidesh" is a modern Hebrew the word for renewed. (also see H2318 for renewed)

H2319
[FONT=&quot]&#1495;&#1491;&#1513;&#1473;[/FONT]
cha&#770;da&#770;sh
BDB Definition:
1) new, new thing, fresh
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H2318
Same Word by TWOT Number: 613a

Here is the Hebrew lexicon listing of the word that is translated as renewed:

H2318
[FONT=&quot]&#1495;&#1491;&#1513;&#1473;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]cha&#770;dash[/FONT]
BDB Definition:
1) to be new, renew, repair
1a) (Piel)
1a1) to renew, make anew
1a2) to repair
1b) (Hithpael) to renew oneself
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 613

Let's take a look at how the Jewish scholars that made up the translation team for the 1917 Jewish Publication Society TeNaKh translated chadash (H2319) contextually:

30 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant ([FONT=&quot]b’riyt chadashah) [/FONT]with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;

Here is the Hebrew:

&#1492;&#1460;&#1504;&#1468;&#1461;&#1492; &#1497;&#1464;&#1502;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; &#1489;&#1468;&#1464;&#1488;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501;, &#1504;&#1456;&#1488;&#1467;&#1501;-&#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1464;&#1492;; &#1493;&#1456;&#1499;&#1464;&#1512;&#1463;&#1514;&#1468;&#1460;&#1497;, &#1488;&#1462;&#1514;-&#1489;&#1468;&#1461;&#1497;&#1514; &#1497;&#1460;&#1513;&#1474;&#1456;&#1512;&#1464;&#1488;&#1461;&#1500; &#1493;&#1456;&#1488;&#1462;&#1514;-&#1489;&#1468;&#1461;&#1497;&#1514; &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1493;&#1468;&#1491;&#1464;&#1492;--&#1489;&#1468;&#1456;&#1512;&#1460;&#1497;&#1514; &#1495;&#1458;&#1491;&#1464;&#1513;&#1473;&#1464;&#1492;.

If we examine the latest version of the Jewish Publication Society Bible, it says new there as well. As a matter of fact, the only translations that have renewed are the ones that are self published by Hebrew roots teachers that have no scholarly credentials to validate their translation. In one such “translation”, it has new in Jeremiah 31:31, and then renewed in the passage in Hebrews that quotes Jeremiah 31. So much for scholarship.

So using the Hebrew roots teachers logic, shouldn’t this passage below be renewed also then?

Isaiah 43
18 Do not remember former things, nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new 2319 ([FONT=&quot]chadashah[/FONT]) thing; now it shall sprout. Shall you not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, rivers in the desert.

Using the same reasoning, wouldn’t it be a renewed song in the following passages?

Psa 33:3 Sing7891 [8798] unto him a new2319 song7892; play5059 [8763] skilfully3190 [8685] with a loud noise8643

Psa 40:3 And he hath put5414 [8799] a new 2319 song7892 in my mouth6310, even praise8416 unto our God430: many7227 shall see7200 [8799] it , and fear3372 [8799], and shall trust982 [8799] in the LORD3068.

Psa 96:1 O sing7891 [8798] unto the LORD3068 a new2319 song 7892: sing7891 [8798] unto the LORD3068, all the earth776.

Psa 98:1 A Psalm4210. O sing7891 [8798] unto the LORD3068 a new 2319 song7892; for he hath done6213 [8804] marvellous things6381 [8737]: his right hand3225, and his holy6944 arm2220, hath gotten him the victory3467 [8689].

Psa 144:9 I will sing7891 [8799] a new 2319 song 7892 unto thee, O God430: upon a psaltery5035 and an instrument of ten strings6218 will I sing praises2167 [8762] unto thee.

Psa 149:1 Praise1984 [8761] ye the LORD3050. Sing7891 [8798] unto the LORD3068 a new 2319 song 7892, and his praise8416 in the congregation6951 of saints2623.

Isa 42:10 Sing7891 [8798] unto the LORD3068 a new 2319 song 7892, and his praise8416 from the end7097 of the earth776, ye that go down3381 [8802] to the sea3220, and all that is therein4393; the isles339, and the inhabitants3427 [8802] thereof.

Below are some of the words, that the Hebrew scribes used when translating the Hebrew word chadash into a Greek equivalent for the Septuagint (LXX) and their definitions:

H2319

chadash G2537 kainos
chadash G3501 neos
chadash G4372 prosphatos


G2537
[FONT=&quot]&#954;&#945;&#953;&#957;&#959;&#769;&#962;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]kainos[/FONT]
Thayer Definition:
1) new
1a) as respects form
1a1) recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
1b) as respects substance
1b1) of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of uncertain affinity
Citing in TDNT: 3:447, 388

Now from the New Testament writings we have these passages using the Greek equivalent for chadash listed above, which is kainos (G2357):

Rev 5:9 And2532 they sung103 [5719] a new 2537 song 5603, saying3004 [5723], Thou art1488 [5748] worthy514 to take2983 [5629] the book975, and2532 to open455 [5658] the seals4973 thereof846: for3754 thou wast slain4969 [5648], and2532 hast redeemed59 [5656] us2248 to God2316 by1722 thy4675 blood129 out of1537 every3956 kindred5443, and2532 tongue1100, and2532 people2992, and2532 nation1484;

Rev 14:3 And2532 they sung103 [5719] as it were5613 a new 2537 song 5603 before1799 the throne2362, and2532 before1799 the four5064 beasts2226, and2532 the elders4245: and2532 no man3762 could1410 [5711] learn3129 [5629] that new 5603 but1508 the hundred1540 and forty5062 and four5064 thousand5505, which3588 were redeemed59 [5772] from575 the earth1093.


Mat 26:28 For1063 this5124 is2076 [5748] my3450 blood129 of the new2537 testament1242, which3588 is shed1632 [5746] for4012 many4183 for1519 the remission859 of sins266.

Heb 8:8 For1063 finding fault3201 [5740] with them846, he saith3004 [5719], Behold2400 [5628], the days2250 come2064 [5736], saith3004 [5719] the Lord2962, when2532 I will make4931 [5692] a new2537 covenant1242 with1909 the house3624 of Israel2474 and2532 with1909 the house3624 of Judah2455

Heb 8:13 In1722 that he saith3004 [5721], A new2537 covenant , he hath
made3822 the first4413 old3822 [5758]. Now1161 that which decayeth3822
[5746] and2532 waxeth old1095 [5723] is ready1451 to vanish away854.

And the now another equivalent word for chadash (neos G3501) is
used (see definition below):

Heb 12:24 And2532 to Jesus2424 the mediator3316 of the new3501 covenant1242, and2532 to the blood129 of sprinkling4473, that speaketh2980 [5723] better things2909 than3844 that of Abel6.

G3501
[FONT=&quot]&#957;&#949;&#769;&#959;&#962;[/FONT] / [FONT=&quot]&#957;&#949;&#969;&#769;&#964;&#949;&#961;&#959;&#962;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]neos[/FONT] / [FONT=&quot]neo&#772;teros[/FONT]
Thayer Definition:
1) recently born, young, youthful
2) new
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary word
Citing in TDNT: 4:896, 628

 

[torahgrandma]

26)The writings of the sages and the talmud, which are often quoted by the Hebrew roots teachers blaspheme Christ and His finished works.



Quote:


Moses Maimonides (Rambam) was born in Cordoba Spain in 1135, is viewed as one of the great Jewish &#8220;sages&#8221;. He is considered to be one of the greatest Jewish thinkers, and his works are referenced often in contemporary Jewish literature. In many of his writings, Maimonides also blasphemes and mocks Jesus. The term Yeshu Ha-Notzri can be found in the Hebrew text of Maimonides Mishneh Torah (Hilchos Melachim 11:4) as well as other writings. Below are a few excerpts from an English translation of his writings:

Mishneh Torah

&#8220;Even Jesus the Nazarene who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed by the court, was already prophesied by Daniel. So that it was said, &#8220;And the members of the outlaws of your nation would be carried to make a (prophetic) vision stand. And they stumbled&#8221; (Daniel 11.14). Because, is there a greater stumbling-block than this one? So that all of the prophets spoke that the Messiah redeems Israel, and saves them, and gathers their banished ones, and strengthens their commandments. And this one caused (nations) to destroy Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them, and to exchange the Torah, and to make the majority of the world err to serve a divinity besides God. However, the thoughts of the Creator of the world &#8211; there is no force in a human to attain them because our ways are not God's ways, and our thoughts not God's thoughts. And all these things of Jesus the Nazarene, and of (Muhammad) the Ishmaelite who stood after him &#8211; there is no (purpose) but to straighten out the way for the King Messiah, and to restore all the world to serve God together. So that it is said, &#8220;Because then I will turn toward the nations (giving them) a clear lip, to call all of them in the name of God and to serve God (shoulder to shoulder as) one shoulder.&#8221; (Zephaniah 3:9). Look how all the world already becomes full of the things of the Messiah, and the things of the Torah, and the things of the commandments! And these things spread among the far islands and among the many nations uncircumcized of heart. (Hilkhot Melakhim 11:10&#8211;12.)

Epistle to Yemen

&#8220;The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him.&#8221;

&#8220;You know that the Christians falsely ascribe marvelous powers to Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust, such as the resurrection of the dead and other miracles. Even if we would grant them for the sake of argument, we should not be convinced by their reasoning that Jesus is the Messiah. For we can bring a thousand proofs or so from the Scripture that it is not so even from their point of view. Indeed, will anyone arrogate this rank to himself unless he wishes to make himself a laughing stock? &#8220;

 

[torahgrandma]

27) Jesus was killed on an execution stake, and not a cross

Quote:

Cross or Stake?

Is the term "execution stake" or “torture stake” an accurate rendering of the Greek word stauros, which appears in the New Testament texts? Many groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses and The Way International, both who deny the Divinity of Christ, as well as some Hebrew roots teachers, use the term "stake". The Complere Jewish Bible, a translation used by many Messianics also uses the term stake in place of the more commonly translated cross. Many have said that they do not use the word "cross" because it is a pagan symbol that was brought into the early church by Constantine. Although the Greek word found in some passages of the New Testament is stauros (G4716), which can mean stake, there is another word xulon (G3586) used in such passages as Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29. The word zulon is also found in Galatians 3:13, which quotes from Deuteronomy 21:23 where the Hebrew word &#8219;e[FONT=&quot]&#770;[/FONT]ts (H6086) is used, which is which is often translated as "tree". Historical reports and archaeological evidence pertaining to first century execution by the Romans does not support "stake" as a valid translation. The stauros was a vertical pole that was installed at the crucifixion site, and the ones being crucified were forced to carry the cross beam up the hill to the site as a form of punishment. Once they reached the site, they were nailed to the crossbeam, and then hoisted up onto the vertical pole (stauros), where their feet were then nailed. The epistle of Barnabas, which is not included in the canon, and is pseudopigraphal in nature, discusses a tau shaped cross as the method of execution of Jesus. Below are four different translations of the passage:

Barnabas 9

7 For the scripture saith; And Abraham circumcised of his household eighteen males and three hundred. What then was the knowledge
given unto him? Understand ye that He saith the eighteen first, and then after an interval three hundred In the eighteen 'I'
stands for ten, 'H' for eight. Here thou hast JESUS (IHSOYS). And because the cross in the 'T' was to have grace, He saith also three
hundred. So He revealeth Jesus in the two letters, and in the remaining one the cross.

8 For he saith, And Abraham circumcised out of his household eighteen and three hundred. What, then, was the knowledge that was given by this? Learn ye, that he mentioneth the eighteen first, and then, having made an interval, he mentioneth the three hundred. In the eighteen, IH, you have Jesus; and because the cross in the letter T was about to convey the grace of redemption, he mentioneth also the three hundred. Therefore, he showeth Jesus in the two letters, IH, and the cross in the one, T.

8 For it says, "And Abraham circumcised from his household eighteen men and three hundred." What then was the knowledge that was given to him? Notice that he first mentions the eighteen, and after a pause the three hundred. The eighteen is I (=ten) and H (=8) -- you have Jesus -- and because the cross was destined to have grace in the T he says "and three hundred." So he indicates Jesus in the two letters and the cross in the other.

8 For [the Scripture] saith, "And Abraham circumcised ten, and eight, and three hundred men of his household." What, then, was the knowledge given to him in this? Learn the eighteen first, and then the three hundred. The ten and the eight are thus denoted--Ten by I, and Eight by H. You have [the initials of the, name of] Jesus. And because the cross was to express the grace [of our redemption] by the letter T he says also, "Three Hundred." He signifies, therefore, Jesus by two letters, and the cross by one. He knows this, who has put within us the engrafted gift of His doctrine. No one has been admitted by me to a more excellent piece of knowledge than this, but I know that ye are worthy.

I am not in any way endorsing the epistle of Barnabas as Scripture, but merely presenting it as a historical writing that mentions the tau cross in reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

The Mark and its possible meaning.

In the book of Ezekiel, we find these passages:

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said to him, Pass through in the midst of the city, in the midst of Jerusalem, and mark ,<8427> a mark <8420> on the foreheads of the men who are groaning and are mourning over all the abominations that are done in her midst.

Eze 9:6 Slay the aged men, the young man, and the virgin, even children, and women, all to destruction. But to every man who
has the mark <8420> on him, do not come near. And begin from My sanctuary. And they began with the aged men who were before the house.

In the book of Revelation, we also find this:

Rev 7:3 Do not harm the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, until we seal <4972> the slaves of our God on their foreheads.

Rev 9:4 And it was said to them that they should not harm the grass of the earth, nor every green thing, nor every tree, except only the men who do not have the seal<4972> of God on their foreheads.

Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed <4972> for the day of redemption.


Let's take a look at the Hebrew for the word mark that we find mentioned in Ezekiel 9:4 and 9:6.

H8420

BDB Definition:
[FONT=&quot]ta&#770;v[/FONT]
1) desire, mark
1a) mark (as a sign of exemption from judgment)

Strongs:
tawv
From H8427; a mark; by implication a signature: - desire, mark.

It is interesting to note, that the modern Hebrew tav looks like a doorway, but the ancient Hebrew tav was a "T" or an "X". These are the two shapes of the crosses that the Romans used for crucifixion.

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament has a chart that illustrates the ancient Hebrew tav "T", which became the letter tau (T) in Greek. A copy of this page can be viewed here:

http://hebrewresources.com/ancient-Hebrew-2.html

In a number of the Dead Sea Scrolls, various types of markings appear in the margins to denote Messianic Prophecies. In the scroll of Isaiah, which is dated to 100 bce, the Messianic Prophecies were marked in the side column by the scribes by using the ancient Hebrew letter tav. As an example, if one examines Isaiah 32:1, in the side column, you will see the tav, which is used to denote the Messianic Prophesies. This tav is written in the form of a slanted "t" which also can appear as an x or + with unequal arms .
The sect at Qumran who kept the scrolls, believed that the tav mark was a sign of future Messianic salvation in reference to Ezekiel 9:4. Below is an English translation of what is written in one of their commentaries on scripture known as the "Damascus Document":
19:12 These [people]shall escape in the time of visitation, but they that hesitate shall be given over to the sword when the Messiah of Aaron and Israel shall come. As it happened in the epoch of the visitation of the forefathers, which He said by the hand of Ezekiel "to set the mark (ha Tav) upon the forehead of such as sigh and groan."


The tav became the letter tau in Greek, and also the letter T in Latin. Because of its shape, the tav was also considered the equivalent to the Greek letter Chi (X) which is used as the first letter in the word Christos (Christ).

 

[Charles YTK]

The facts of the matter are fa more complex than slogans and sound bites. In short, Eastern Orthodoxy retains a decidedly Semitic flavor not found in the Western Church- and I truly appreciate this flavor, fo I know that salvation came to us through the Holy Hebrew ancestors.

Please understand up front that I do not mean any disrespect to you or the EO in general, but to me this is like saying that "Taco-Bell" makes great authentic Mexican food. They call it mexican, but it is nothing at all like authentic mexican. Anyone who has eaten real Mexican food will agree.

I agree that your history in EO is decidedly closer to the Apostolic church in its early form, but even that changed after the destruction of the temple. Until then the Apostolic church was still completely a sect of Temple Judaism and as it says in acts 2, "They met daily in the temple." and in acts 21 "Myraids of Jews who believe and are zealous for the law.". Things changed for Judaism and for the emerging Christian faith after the destruction of the temple each developing a templess form of their religion and replacing Levitical service with new rituals.

Somewhere in the years after this the EO fathers also merged with the western church in many places didn't they? Their are some monumental differences between the church of the Apostles and the EO today if I am not mistaken. For example do you not celebrate Christmas rather than the Bible feast of Sukkot when Yeshua was born and fulfilled that prophetic feast? Do you not observe Easter rather than keeping the Passover, the feast of unleavened bread and feast of first fruits traditions which were fulilled by the death and resurrection of Yeshua? And don't you practice Eucharist, drinking the supposed blood and eating the imagined flesh of Jesus in order to receive eternal life? Can you imagine what an insult such a ritual would be to Jewish believers when God forbids consuming blood and eating human flesh? Do you worship God or do you worship Jesus exclusively? Didn't Jesus come to bring us to the father? He said that he was the way, the truth and life, and that no man comes to the father except through him. While there is nothing wrong with worship toward Jesus as our savior and true witness of God, many Christian churches still teach that Jesus is not the same as God and that God would gladly kill us all today if it were not for Jesus holding back the arm of this argry God who is called father. Nothing is father from the truth. It was GOD who loved the world so much that HE sent HIS son, to bring us back to HIMSELF. Jesus said, "In that day (after the resurrection) you will not aske me, and have me pray to the father, you will instead ask the father yourself for what you need and receive it, BECAUSE THE FATHER HIMSELF LOVES YOU. This is a profound truth that is mostly lost in the Churches today.

And this woman, with her campaign against Messainic faith criticizes Messianics for worshipping God.

So while I appreciate the history of the foundations of the EO I am suspect of it's practice as it has been since the end of the 4th century. Some day I would like to visit an EO church and see what it is like. Until then I do not fault you for your love for your denomination but I am suspect that it is the faithful continuation of the religion and practice of the apostles. When we read the church fathers it seems that the Nazarenes were the true continuation from the Apostles and continued through the 4th century CE and they kept the Passover and not Eucharist, they kept the Biblical feasts, they maintained the Jewish traditions and litergy, and read from the scriptures even at that time having Matthew in its original Hebrew letters in which it was first written. Perhaps all this is lost to the church today, even the Nazarene practices.

What the Messianic movement attempts to do is to reestablish that first church as it existed after the fall of the temple. Problem is there is not a lot of information from that time period. The sriptures mostly tell us what it was like up to the fall of the temple. Th ebook of Hebrews might be the only writing we have for this critical time in history.

Yes it is true that some Messianics go too far in trying to restore the true church and use Rabbinical Judaism as it's guide. I oppose this very strongly myself and have fallen under harsh criticism from Messianics for it. Certainly before the fall of the temple the Church was very much a part of Judaism, though opposed by the orthodox of the time. That was typical of Judaism as shown even in the Gospels; the sects of Saducees, Pharisees and Escenes all struggled between themselves, fighting over doctrine continually but still were all part of the Judaism of the time. Much in the way that Christianity is made up of many denominations who fight over doctrine but are united by a few basic beliefs concerning the person of Jesus.

What comes out the other end of the final Jewish war 135 CE and the expulsion of Israel is what we need to have a better look at and what the Messainic faith is about, restoring the first post temple Apostolic church. Have mistakes been made? Certainly and I would be the first to tell you this. Somewhere between us all is the fragments of that first Apostolic church. None of us have all the pieces just yet.

 

[torahgrandma]

23) Hebrew is a Holy language and will be the language of Heaven.


24) It is not possible to curse in Hebrew.

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 Then I said, Woe is me! For I am cut off; for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I am a man of unclean lips [/FONT][FONT=&quot](H8193)[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and I live amongst a people of unclean lips [/FONT][FONT=&quot](H8193); for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of Hosts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, snatched with tongs from the altar. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 And he touched it on my mouth, and said, See, this has touched your lips; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and your iniquity is taken away[/FONT][FONT=&quot], and your sin is covered. [/FONT]

H8193
[FONT=&quot]&#1513;&#1474;&#1508;&#1514;[/FONT] / [FONT=&quot]&#1513;&#1474;&#1508;&#1492;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]s&#769;a&#770;pha&#770;h[/FONT] / [FONT=&quot]s&#769;epheth[/FONT]
BDB Definition:
1) lip, language, speech, shore, bank, brink, brim, side, edge, border, binding
1a) lip (as body part)
1b) language
1c) edge, shore, bank (of cup, sea, river, etc)
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: probably from H5595 or H8192 through the idea of termination (compare H5490)
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2278a

Here is another example of how the same word is used:

[FONT=&quot]Zephaniah 3[/FONT]
9 [FONT=&quot]For then will I restore to the people a pure (H1305) language (H8193), that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one accord.[/FONT]

H1305
[FONT=&quot]&#1489;&#1468;&#1512;&#1512;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ba&#770;rar[/FONT]
BDB Definition:
1) to purify, select, polish, choose, purge, cleanse or make bright, test or prove
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to purge, purge out, purify
1a2) to choose, select
1a3) to cleanse, make shining, polish
1a4) to test, prove
1b) (Niphal) to purify oneself
1c) (Piel) to purify
1d) (Hiphil)
1d1) to purify
1d2) to polish arrows
1e) (Hithpael)
1e1) to purify oneself
1e2) to show oneself pure, just, kind
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 288

Since we know that Isaiah spoke and wrote in Hebrew, and he himself said that he is a man of unclean lips (speech), and since God says he will restore a pure language, then it is obvious by the text that Biblical Hebrew is not a pure language currently, nor was it at the time of Isaiah.

 

[ContraMundum]

Really? so you have never heard the argument that Christmas is pagan, and therefore people need to do what Jesus did? I have heard it countless times.

Maybe you need to go to a better church.

The standard for believers should be, if it goes against Christ then immediately avoid it at all cost, if it doesn't go against Him, then check the Scriptures to see if it is so.

I don't think celebrating Hanukkah goes against Christ. But, I do think it's a Jewish holiday. I have no idea why Gentiles want to celebrate it.