Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[Frogster]

Nobody has suggested aligning to Judaism. The problem within modern thought is we see the word "Israel" or hear the word "Law" and assume the context is Jews. The Jews are part of Israel (The House of JEW-dah) but there is also a House of Israel... they are not Jewish. Again, this is why Paul said you "WERE an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel" and then later, "But are NOW fellow citizens."

By the way, most don't know this... there were two school of Pharisaical teaching in the first century. Beit (School or house) Shamai and Beit Hillel. Shamai was known to teach "the letter of the law" and Hillel was known to teach "the Spirit of the law." The references in the NT to "spirit of" and "letter of" were tied to these two methods of interpretation and teaching. In Acts 15, we see in the first few verses those who insisted we need to be circumcised unto salvation. These were adherents of Beit Shamai because that was their position which at that time, was the accepted law within Judaism for proselytes (converts). The Spirit of the law position, made known 50 years BEFORE Acts 15, was to avoid blood and things strangled, fornication and food offered to idols. When the council convened they basically turned back the clock and took the Beit Shamai position, word for word. So, my point for this post... not all Pharisees are the same!

Acts 15 was about the law, that is a fact. Circumcision meant keep the law, see gal 5:3. Plain and simple. Keep the law, means keep the law in any school. Paul and Barnabas fought them off big time when they came to Antioch Acts 15. He did not care about school, he knew just what they wanted, and said no circumcision to become Jewish for the church, by the rite of circumcision.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Tell me what you are offended by and maybe I can clear up the misunderstanding. Also, I have not "come into" this forum, I belong here. I'm charismatic and have been here for over 10 years.

You are talking about heathens being part of the Old Covenant, maybe a few, but the Old Covenant was not open to all people's. Then you talk about repenting. There was no repenting in the Old Covenant. I'm wondering how you can even begin to question what were the basic differences. You are asking what's new between burned offerings and animal sacrifice and a law that once you broke one law, you have broken them all vs. the gift of grace through the death of Jesus Christ? God with us and in us?

That to me is a little of why I find it offensive.

 

[Frogster]

I would also like to add that there is a Messianic Judaism section of this forum. Even though we are not allowed to participate (because it is a safe-house, as this forum is) you can get an understanding of their beliefs and see much for yourself which areas of the bible that they have 'difficulty' with and the extra-biblical sources that are part of their belief systems.

For the Christian, it opens ones eyes to the other books and teachings that are blended into their beliefs as well as the very real Jewish customs that are adhered to whether by birth or by the ones that feel grafted in.

exactly we can't go there and debate, but they can come here, I tried to argue that point when they were making the new rules.

 

[Frogster]

I'm sorry you are taking offense. Having a new High Priest who never will die is a huge difference. I don't take it lightly. However, I'm curious as to what you think are the new covenant promises that are not in the old. What is offensive about that question?

does the new cov restrict us to the mosaic food laws, and make us by law have to keep the feasts? Do boys on the 8th day who are Ghristians have to be literally circumcised like the old cov says to do?

 

[Frogster]

I think your quote is far too selective. The dietary laws were from the time of Moses until the time of reformation came and now that time has come and those laws are annulled; furthermore God said to Noah "And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." (Genesis 9:2-3 KJV) So it is evident that the foods that ancient Israel could not eat were forbidden to them as a sign but not because those foods are bad or unfit for eating. Hence the apostle says "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving" (1 Timothy 4:4 KJV)

exactly!

 

[Frogster]

Really? So what you are saying is that anyone could have participated in the Old Covenant between Israel and God? That it was open to all the heathens who repented? Where is repenting in mosaic law or the Old Covenant? That is not in the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was between Israelite's and God.

exactly there are alot of verses that show the gentiles were not given the law, if one of our MJ friends wants proof, the frog has text to post.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I must say, it is fun to watch some posts appear. I am glad you are awake again Frogster.

 

[Frogster]

Agreed, the only problem is, the law isn't written on your heart, yet. If it were you couldn't sin, if it were there would be no need to teach, if it were all would know YHWH. But all don't know YHWH, there is still a need to teach, and you can sin. That is why Paul (not me, Paul) called what we do have in 2 Cor. 1:22 and 5:5 an EARNEST, a down payment.... which by definition means, "there is more to come." The more to come is the completion of the law on our hearts... a work that has begun but is by FAR nor completed yet. So you are looking inside for something that isn't fully there, yet.

please, the earnest expectation is about the adoption glorification, that did not come by la,w you are really misusing that verse. The law voids the Abrahamic promise.

Rom 4:14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void.

you quote 2 Cor 1:22, as Paul was warding off Judaizers in the same book, and the old cov in 2 Cor 3.

 

[ToBeLoved]

exactly there are alot of verses that show the gentiles were not given the law, if one of our MJ friends wants proof, the frog has text to post.

Doesn't it say in the OT something like "this is the covenant that the Lord God makes with Israel". I'm going to look it up unless you have it my fine, green amphibian friend.

 

[Frogster]

The point is, for the first decade almost ALL of the "Christians" were Jews. And the faith remained predominately Jewish until 134AD when most of the remaining Jewish believers left the area when Bar Khokba was falsely named Messiah by Rabbi Akiva in an effort to rally the Jews against the Romans in what was their "last stand." Then, after that time, the faith quickly became majority Greek and whether you realize it now or not... Greek philosophy became to permeate the doctrinal view. But, that is a long study. Be well.

not a decade, Acts 10 was only about 6-7 years after Pentecost.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Doesn't it say in the OT something like "this is the covenant that the Lord God makes with Israel". I'm going to look it up unless you have it my fine, green amphibian friend.

There are numerous passages that say the law was given to Israel through Moses. I hope our MJ and HRM interlocutors would not contradict that.

 

[Frogster]

Doesn't it say in the OT something like "this is the covenant that the Lord God makes with Israel". I'm going to look it up unless you have it my fine, green amphibian friend.

Yes, and look at all of these verses that show who got the old cov, it was the jews, not gentiles.


Declared to who???? With no other nation, that would be Gentiles!

Psalm 147:19 He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules to Israel.20 He has not dealt thus with any other nation; (gentiles mine) they do not know his rules.
Praise the LORD!


Who were the Sabbaths for? Who????

2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.


Passover of the Gentiles, or Jews?


John 2:13
The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 6:4
Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.

John 11:55
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and many went up from the country to Jerusalem before the Passover to purify themselves


One had to be Jewish, circumcised to keep the feast.

Exodus 12:48
When a stranger sojourning with you wishes to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

Not Gentiles! They were WITHOUT the law!

1 Cor 9:21 To those outside the law (gentiles mine) I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.


Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law (gentiles mine)will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.


Not with the FATHERS....the old cov, lol!


Deuteronomy5:3
Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.


Gentiles walked in THEIR WAYS, not Jewish ways.


Acts 14:16In past generations he allowed all the nations (Gentiles) to walk in their own ways.

Acts 17:30The times of ignorance (Gentiles) God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,


Peter said the ignorance word too, about gentiles, they were not under the law.1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,


Look who got the law, the ISRAELITES!

Romans 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

 

[Frogster]

There are numerous passages that say the law was given to Israel through Moses. I hope our MJ and HRM interlocutors would not contradict that.

i would not hold my breath.

 

[Frogster]

I must say, it is fun to watch some posts appear. I am glad you are awake again Frogster.

Thanks you too bro!

 

[MoreCoffee]

i would not hold my breath.

Nor would I.

But one hopes.

 

[Steeno7]

I'm sorry you are taking offense. Having a new High Priest who never will die is a huge difference. I don't take it lightly. However, I'm curious as to what you think are the new covenant promises that are not in the old. What is offensive about that question?

A new high priest who mediates what? All you have done is relate how the covenant is mediated, but you haven't said anything about what the content of that covenant actually is.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Really? So what you are saying is that anyone could have participated in the Old Covenant between Israel and God? That it was open to all the heathens who repented? Where is repenting in mosaic law or the Old Covenant? That is not in the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant was between Israelite's and God.

Lev 19:
33 “‘When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

Ex 12:
48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”

It is not required that we be circumcised anymore.
​

Numbers 15:
13 “‘Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when they present a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord. 14 For the generations to come, whenever a foreigner or anyone else living among you presents a food offering as an aroma pleasing to the Lord, they must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the foreigner residing among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the Lord: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the foreigner residing among you.’”

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, and look at all of these verses that show who got the old cov, it was the jews, not gentiles.


Declared to who???? With no other nation, that would be Gentiles!

Psalm 147:19 He declares his word to Jacob, his statutes and rules to Israel.20 He has not dealt thus with any other nation; (gentiles mine) they do not know his rules.
Praise the LORD!


Who were the Sabbaths for? Who????

2 Chronicles 2:4 Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God and dedicate it to him for the burning of incense of sweet spices before him, and for the regular arrangement of the showbread, and for burnt offerings morning and evening, on the Sabbaths and the new moons and the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, as ordained forever for Israel.


Passover of the Gentiles, or Jews?


John 2:13
The Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

John 6:4
Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand.

John 11:55
Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and many went up from the country to Jerusalem before the Passover to purify themselves


One had to be Jewish, circumcised to keep the feast.

Exodus 12:48
When a stranger sojourning with you wishes to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

Not Gentiles! They were WITHOUT the law!

1 Cor 9:21 To those outside the law (gentiles mine) I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.


Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law (gentiles mine)will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.


Not with the FATHERS....the old cov, lol!


Deuteronomy5:3
Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.


Gentiles walked in THEIR WAYS, not Jewish ways.


Acts 14:16In past generations he allowed all the nations (Gentiles) to walk in their own ways.

Acts 17:30The times of ignorance (Gentiles) God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,


Peter said the ignorance word too, about gentiles, they were not under the law.1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,


Look who got the law, the ISRAELITES!

Romans 9:4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.

Thank you for all those wonderful verses. It was mentioned earlier that the Old Covenant was available to heathens who had repented? I'm like wa? This could get absurd, quick.

 

[Frogster]

Say what? So you're saying that Acts shows how they were all making mistakes about their faith?????? If you can see that they thought it was part of Judaism, where do you suppose they got that notion??? Oh, from Jesus maybe. You're doctrine is frequently quite different from any I've ever heard before and I've grown up in the church.

no, the priests converted, so there was a difference, or why convert? 'the faith" it says..

Acts 6:7 And the word of God continued to increase, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests became obedient to the faith.

 

[Frogster]

Thank you for all those wonderful verses. It was mentioned earlier that the Old Covenant was available to heathens who had repented? I'm like wa? This could get absurd, quick.

I hear ya!