Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[SpiritPsalmist]

If it truly is your opinion that the only change is the one your post names then what is there left to say but that your post is in error and that the new testament does not teach what your post teaches.

The only thing that changed regarding Gods covenant to us is the High Priest. Jesus, shed His blood for all mankind so that whoever would believe on Him would have eternal life. Paul says, "I am free from the law of sin and death" which was "the soul that sins dies". Jesus blood set us free from that law. The Romans ref is talking about the change of one high priest who would eventually die and they'd have to get another, to THE High Priest, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The lesson in your post is incorrect because it ignores the teaching in Acts 11:26; specifically that the name was give to the faithful by divine providence. And even though the idea of divine providence is only implied and not explicitly stated in the passage it is a serious mistake to ignore it. Besides 1Peter 4:16 tells the faithful not to feel shame because they suffer as Christians because God himself bears this name, that is to say because the Lord Jesus Christ is himself a Christian.

But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or a thief, or a wrongdoer, or a mischief-maker; yet if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but under that name let him glorify God. For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? And "If the righteous man is scarcely saved, where will the impious and sinner appear?" Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will do right and entrust their souls to a faithful Creator.
(1 Peter 4:15-19 RSV)

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So even though it's not stated imagine it and Jesus is like Christ and He's a Christian????? Seriously? I've addressed both scriptures and it did not ignore anything.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The only thing that changed regarding Gods covenant to us is the High Priest. ...

Repeating error will not make it less an error upon repetition than it was when it was first said. The books of Hebrews, saint Paul's letters, and the teaching of Christ make it abundantly clear that a whole lot more than the high priesthood was changed. For one thing the whole Aaronic priesthood is ended, there is no room for animal sacrifices any more. To suggest that the priests in the line of Aaron have validity in the new covenant is deny the clear teaching of holy scripture; specifically

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec: ) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
(Hebrews 7:11-25 KJV)

​

 

[MoreCoffee]

So even though it's not stated imagine it and Jesus is like Christ and He's a Christian????? Seriously? I've addressed both scriptures and it did not ignore anything.

One ought to refute error, which I have done, and ignore it when it is repeated.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hebrews 11 gives a whole list of OT people whose faith was accounted unto them as righteousness. There has always been "grace through faith", it's not new to the NT.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Repeating error will not make it less an error upon repetition than it was when it was first said. The books of Hebrews, saint Paul's letters, and the teaching of Christ make it abundantly clear that a whole lot more than the high priesthood was changed. For one thing the whole Aaronic priesthood is ended, there is no room for animal sacrifices any more. To suggest that the priests in the line of Aaron have validity in the new covenant is deny the clear teaching of holy scripture; specifically

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
(Hebrews 7:11-25 KJV)

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I did NOT say the human priest had perfection...I've said the opposite and that is WHY Jesus is our High Priest who will never die

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

We don't make sacrifices for our sins anymore like to the human high priest, we just go to our New High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ who is making intercession for us, we repent, and we change our course.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hebrews 11 gives a whole list of OT people whose faith was accounted unto them as righteousness. There has always been "grace through faith", it's not new to the NT.

I've not said that grace is a new concept first revealed in the new testament; quite the opposite I wrote in a earlier post that the covenant with Abraham, a covenant of grace, remains while the law is abrogated. It is the Mosaic covenant, the one given at Sinai, that is ended. It was a covenant of bondage (Gal 4:21-31).

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(Galatians 4:21-31 KJV)

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[SpiritPsalmist]

I've not said that grace is a new concept first revealed in the new testament; quite the opposite I wrote in a earlier post that the covenant with Abraham, a covenant of grace, remains while the law is abrogated. It is the Mosaic covenant, the one given at Sinai, that is ended. It was a covenant of bondage (Gal 4:21-31).

Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
(Galatians 4:21-31 KJV)

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I did not mean to imply that you thought differently. There are many here though who think that salvation by grace through faith is only NT

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

MoreCoffee, in your own words what do you believe changed with the New Covenant when Jesus died on the cross for our sins?

 

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee, in your own words what else do you believe changed in the New Covenant when Jesus died on the cross for our sins?

It isn't a matter of what I believe - though I like to think my beliefs are true and correct - but what Christ teaches and what is in holy scripture and holy tradition. But the answer to what changed is answered in these words:

Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
(Hebrews 9:6-10 KJV)​

I did give the above passage as part of one of my earlier posts but if I recall correctly you disagreed with what I said then. So I am only repeating it because you asked. And I do hope that you may reconsider the matter. My earlier post dealt with most of Hebrews chapter nine.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It isn't a matter of what I believe - though I like to think my beliefs are true and correct - but what Christ teaches and what is in holy scripture and holy tradition. But the answer to what changed is answered in these words:

Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
(Hebrews 9:6-10 KJV)​

I did give the above passage as part of one of my earlier posts but if I recall correctly you disagreed with what I said then. So I am only repeating it because you asked. And I do hope that you may reconsider the matter. My earlier post dealt with most of Hebrews chapter nine.

I don't know how this answers my question. Of course, we don't have a human priest (who did those things) anymore, we have Jesus. He does not need to do any of those. It is my opinion that that verse is talking about the human priests and how they were not made perfect through their sacrifices because their sacrifices only pertained to meats and drinks, divers washings and carnal ordinances that had been imposed on them (the priests) until the Redeemer promised came. Of course that all disappeared when our Redeemer The Lord Jesus Christ shed His blood for our sins. It was done once and for all.

Here is Hebrews 9:6-10 in a few other versions:

Hebrews 9:6-10New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests A)">(A)are continually entering the a]">[a]outer b]">[b]tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7 but into B)">(B)the second, only C)">(C)the high priest enters D)">(D)once a year, E)">(E)not without taking blood, which he F)">(F)offers for himself and for the c]">[c]G)">(G)sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 H)">(H)The Holy Spirit is signifying this, I)">(I)that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the d]">[d]outer tabernacle is still standing, 9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly J)">(J)both gifts and sacrifices are offered which K)">(K)cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience, 10 since they relate only to L)">(L)food and M)">(M)drink and various N)">(N)washings, O)">(O)regulations for the e]">[e]body imposed until P)">(P)a time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:6-10Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

6 With things so arranged, the cohanim go into the outer tent all the time to discharge their duties; 7 but only the cohen hagadol enters the inner one; and he goes in only once a year, and he must always bring blood, which he offers both for himself and for the sins committed in ignorance by the people. 8 By this arrangement, the Ruach HaKodesh showed that so long as the first Tent had standing, the way into the Holiest Place was still closed. 9 This symbolizes the present age and indicates that the conscience of the person performing the service cannot be brought to the goal by the gifts and sacrifices he offers. 10 For they involve only food and drink and various ceremonial washings — regulations concerning the outward life, imposed until the time for God to reshape the whole structure.

Hebrews 9:6-10New King James Version (NKJV)

Limitations of the Earthly Service
6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 9:6-10New International Version (NIV)

6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularlyA)">(A) into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest enteredB)">(B) the inner room,C)">(C) and that only once a year,D)">(D) and never without blood,E)">(E) which he offered for himselfF)">(F) and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.G)">(G) 8 The Holy Spirit was showingH)">(H) by this that the wayI)">(I) into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustrationJ)">(J) for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offeredK)">(K) were not able to clear the conscienceL)">(L) of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of foodM)">(M) and drinkN)">(N) and various ceremonial washingsO)">(O)—external regulationsP)">(P) applying until the time of the new order.

Your version pretty much says the same thing.
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[MoreCoffee]

Jesus is a human so he is a human priest; specifically a human high priest.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Jesus is a human so he is a human priest; specifically a human high priest.

You don't believe Jesus is God?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The portion of Hebrews 9:6-10 that was underlined in my post points to the end of the carnal ordinances; specifically, food laws, drink regulations, ceremonial baptisms. Other passage add to the list, thus new moons, Sabbath, and holy days are also ended. There is more too in other passage.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hebrews 4:
Jesus the Great High Priest
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priestS)">(S) who has ascended into heaven,f]">[f]T)">(T) Jesus the Son of God,U)">(U) let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.V)">(V) 15 For we do not have a high priestW)">(W) who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we areX)">(X)—yet he did not sin.Y)">(Y) 16 Let us then approachZ)">(Z) God’s throne of grace with confidence,AA)">(AA) so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The portion of Hebrews 9:6-10 that was underlined in my post points to the end of the carnal ordinances; specifically, food laws, drink regulations, ceremonial baptisms. Other passage add to the list, thus new moons, Sabbath, and holy days are also ended. There is more too in other passage.

True, but it was talking about the rituals of the high priests and why they could not be perfect through them. And what are those other passages you refer to?

 

[MoreCoffee]

You don't believe Jesus is God?

The Lord Jesus Christ is both man and God. The Chalcedonian creed explains the matter. So does the last part of the Athanasian Creed.

We believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He
is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God,
perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the
Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His
Manhood.

Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one
however not by conversion of the GodHead in the flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity
of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man
is one Christ.

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the
dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all
men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own
works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they
who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.​

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The Lord Jesus Christ is both man and God. The Chalcedonian creed explains the matter. So does the last part of the Athanasian Creed.

We believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. The right faith therefore is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

He is God of the substance of the Father begotten before the worlds, and He
is man of the substance of His mother born in the world; perfect God,
perfect man subsisting of a reasoning soul and human flesh; equal to the
Father as touching His Godhead, inferior to the Father as touching His
Manhood.

Who although He be God and Man yet He is not two but one Christ; one
however not by conversion of the GodHead in the flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood in God; one altogether not by confusion of substance but by unity
of Person. For as the reasoning soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man
is one Christ.

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again from the
dead, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, from
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all
men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own
works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they
who indeed have done evil into eternal fire.​

Ok, well He's not a human high priest who will eventually die. Can't you give an answer that is in your own words, not copied and pasted from other peoples answers...specifically those of the Catholic doctrine?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Ok, well He's not a human high priest who will eventually die. Can't you give an answer that is in your own words, not copied and pasted from other peoples answers...specifically those of the Catholic doctrine.

He's a human high priest who lives forever; being immortal helps with that.