Discussion Hebrew Roots; error or something else?

[Frogster]

To go back to the Old cov was to trample the blood of Christ.

heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[MoreCoffee]

It was living out God's Judaism that incited the Pharisees to want him dead. The rabbinical teachings and the OT were that at odds with each other. The fact that so many of us calling ourselves Christians don't know that and many even oppose that understanding actually speaks volumes of how far from God's faith we are. I truly believe that if Jesus stepped into most of our churches we too would crucify Him.

It is, of course, possible that the view of the many who are in Christ is correct and the view expressed in your post is not. There is in the body of Christ a wisdom that is deeper than the theories some put forward in order to hold on to the traditions of the elders that the Lord Jesus Christ so roundly condemned (Matt 15:1-11).

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I just noticed that you also seem to have a lot of questions about the New Covenant. Only an observation. I thought you may be blessed also.

Jesus asked questions. When God said, "Adam, where are you"? It was not because HE did not know the answer.

I ask them because due to the refusal to answer my question, it seems that you do not know for yourself what the difference are and are not between the Old and the New. I'm trying to get you to do your own research. What research you've done so far has not served you well. But if you don't want to that is certainly your choice.

 

[Frogster]

More about the circumcision...


Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus asked questions. When God said, "Adam, where are you"? It was not because HE did not know the answer.

I ask them because due to the refusal to answer my question, it seems that you do not know for yourself what the difference are and are not between the Old and the New. I'm trying to get you to do your own research. What research you've done so far has not served you well. But if you don't want to that is certainly your choice.

I am interested in some of the scripture that Frogster and MoreCoffee have discussed on some of the earlier pages and will be going back later to them. That's the nice thing about the thread is that we can go back and revisit the scripture quoted to read more in depth. I do really like that about Forum formats in particular to other kinds of mediums.

 

[Frogster]

I am interested in some of the scripture that Frogster and MoreCoffee have discussed on some of the earlier pages and will be going back later to them. That's the nice thing about the thread is that we can go back and revisit the scripture quoted to read more in depth. I do really like that about Forum formats in particular to other kinds of mediums.

you say plenty of good stuff too!

 

[MoreCoffee]

This thread certainly has been moving fast.

It seems that there is quite a range of views among the HRM; some appear to want to follow dietary laws and the Torah to become Torah observant believers and others take a less stringent path seeking knowledge of Hebrew language and Jewish customs in ancient times and in the time of Christ. The latter may be beneficial for a Christian's faith and certainly will increase his or her knowledge. The former is an error and may lead to serious damage to the faith in those groups that promote it and in the world that see it being promoted.

 

[Frogster]

This thread certainly has been moving fast.

It seems that there is quite a range of views among the HRM; some appear to want to follow dietary laws and the Torah to become Torah observant believers and others take a less stringent path seeking knowledge of Hebrew language and Jewish customs in ancient times and in the time of Christ. The latter may be beneficial for a Christians faith and certainly will increase his or her knowledge.

Tell ya, I for the likes of me, can't understand how gentiles would get into this doctrine. It is so foreign to the text.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Tell ya, I for the likes of me, can't understand how gentiles would get into this doctrine. It is so foreign to the text.

What is also ironic is that the Word itself testifies to how much better the New Covenant is. God layed it all out for us, in His Word, all the reason's why the New Covenant is much, much better.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tell ya, I for the likes of me, can't understand how gentiles would get into this doctrine. It is so foreign to the text.

I agree. The teaching is, I think, coming from sources that are universally seen as outside of the Christian faith. Sources such as Herbert W Armstrong's "Worldwide Church of God" and the daughter groups that kept to his doctrine (The WWCoG reformed its doctrine and joined the ranks of evangelicalism in the 1990s but many members and teachers broke away to preserve the doctrines of their founder H W Armstrong). It also seems to borrow from Rabbinic Judaism rather heavily making, as it does, frequent mention and use of the Targums and the Mishna as well as other sources from rabbinic Judaism. I do sometimes wonder how the movement can deal with what saint John had to say about the beginnings of Rabbinic Judaism in his day (after the destruction of the temple in 70 AD) when he wrote:

And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
(Revelation 2:8-11 KJV)​

And again

And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
(Revelation 3:7-11 KJV)​

It is clear that the churches in those cities were experiencing serious persecutions from the rabbinic synagogues of their day and it is interesting that saint John refers to these as "the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie". One cannot help but think that what we see in some quarters today would be troubling to the apostles but not unfamiliar to them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What is also ironic is that the Word itself testifies to how much better the New Covenant is. God layed it all out for us, in His Word, all the reason's why the New Covenant is much, much better.

Yes indeed, I for one am glad and most thankful to be under a better covenant with better promises than those of Israel received from Moses.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes indeed, I for one and glad and most thankful to be under a better covenant with better promises than those of Israel received from Moses.

I hope in the future when you have a topic that is pertinent to this sub-forum that you come back around. This has been an interesting thread.

 

[jiminpa]

Wow, just wow.

Why? Do you think we're above such pride? We're not.

Hebrews 11 gives a whole list of OT people whose faith was accounted unto them as righteousness. There has always been "grace through faith", it's not new to the NT.

...and we have a winner!

 

[MoreCoffee]

I hope in the future when you have a topic that is pertinent to this sub-forum that you come back around. This has been an interesting thread.

I am sure that a Catholic is welcome to start a thread in this forum because there are many charismatic Catholics and all Catholics believe that God's gifts persist to this day. It is probably impossible to be a Catholic Christian and not believe that God continues to send visions and dreams and work miracles among the faithful.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why? Do you think we're above such pride? We're not.

Hebrews 11 gives a whole list of OT people whose faith was accounted unto them as righteousness. There has always been "grace through faith", it's not new to the NT.

...and we have a winner!

Every Christian knows that God was gracious to Abram and that the promises made to him and his seed are among the promises that the faithful receive in Christ. Thus the covenant of grace given to Abraham persists to this day while the covenant given through Moses has vanished away because it grew old and it was weak and beggarly. But all this has been covered in earlier posts by myself, Frogster, and ToBeLoved in this thread and others have encouraged us too. For that I am thankful. It is always God who receives our praise and it is always God who is our teacher through the scriptures and through the church. None of us stands in isolation. There is a two thousand year old accumulation of gospel teaching that has unfolded progressively and now when new errors arise and old one are revived we are most thankful to God for providing the wisdom he gave to the church in the writings of the saints who came before.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I am sure that a Catholic is welcome to start a thread in this forum because there are many charismatic Catholics and all Catholics believe that God's gifts persist to this day. It is probably impossible to be a Catholic Christian and not believe that God continues to send visions and dreams and work miracles among the faithful.

Even though we disagree with each other, I welcome you here.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Even though we disagree with each other, I welcome you here.

One ought never be afraid of conflict. Only let the conflict be between ideas and not between the brethren.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

What is also ironic is that the Word itself testifies to how much better the New Covenant is. God layed it all out for us, in His Word, all the reason's why the New Covenant is much, much better.

But yet you are unable to explain in what ways you believe it's better.

I agree the new is better because there is a new HIGH PRIEST who never sleeps or slumbers and He lives eternally, and He's continually making intercession for us. If one thinks about it, that covers a whole lot of ground.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But yet you are unable to explain in what ways you believe it's better.

I agree the new is better because there is a new HIGH PRIEST who never sleeps or slumbers and He lives eternally, and He's continually making intercession for us. If one thinks about it, that covers a whole lot of ground.

Even if somebody can't tell you why the new covenant is better it remains true that it is better as the holy scriptures testify.

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
(Hebrews 8:1-7 KJV)

​

 

[ToBeLoved]

But yet you are unable to explain in what ways you believe it's better.

I agree the new is better because there is a new HIGH PRIEST who never sleeps or slumbers and He lives eternally, and He's continually making intercession for us. If one thinks about it, that covers a whole lot of ground.

You have your opinion. Just because I do not choose to answer your questions to your satisfaction, does not mean that I do not know. I am very comfortable in my own knowledge and my own faith and beliefs. You have a wonderful evening.