Hebraic mindset

[ContraMundum]

Whilst I could never agree to using Wiki for academic debate and discussions (what would my students think?), the general direction of CM's comments I can agree with. Most of the philosophy I did at College was Philosophy of Religion (and Sociology of Religion), as such. My daughter studied philosophy as a pure subject for her A levels, and leaves me behind when she gets deep into it; it was a long time ago that I first sat in a Theolog College!

I wouldn't use wiki either, but it was a good article based on what I would say any dictionary of philosophy would say, so I threw it in.

One thing is certain, the Jews after a time came to believe in cyclical time and history, so it can be part of the so-called "Hebrew mindset" in that sense. However, the Greeks believed the same, and you can't use them as the "bad guys" in this unless you think they influenced the Jews (which I think is likely, were it not for Biblical typology being so evidently true! A good midrash merely calls this to our attention!)

However, what has been mis-labeled "Greek Mindset" could be in fact the contemporary Western linear mindset, which is not from the Greeks per se (Aristotle believed in causality, but most Greeks followed Plato, Pythagoras and the Stoics it seems, and cyclical thought was rife in European theology during the Middle Ages), but these days from the English via Hume! LOL

"My Big Fat Engilsh Mindset" is what Hegg should have written- but Hegg is a bit of a hack anyway. Why the people who adore him aren't being Berean with his stuff is a mystery.

 

[dvd_holc]

So...were are argueing definitions? Blunt point did the 1st century Jews have a different worldview than 21st century Americans? Did they have a different way of expressing themselves? If so, why so? If not, why not?

 

[visionary]

So...were are argueing definitions? Blunt point did the 1st century Jews have a different worldview than 21st century Americans? Did they have a different way of expressing themselves? If so, why so? If not, why not?

Absolutely.. they had a different worldview in the 1st century.. especially within any given community.. We are all changed by our experiences and the cultural context in which we received those experiences and knowledge..

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Lulav, no I have not read that book, but I would love to.

I've got that book... Tim gave me a PDF version so I did not have to write notes on the pages... thanks Tim.

CL, could you please provide a link to the .pdf file, or possibly PM it me if you don't want to give it in public? I would be VERY appreciative, Bro.




Shalom

 

[Ivy]

"My Big Fat Engilsh Mindset"

 

[desmalia]

Thank you everyone for the discussion here. I have a relative who is writing a book comparing the Hebraic mindset with Hellenistic (sounds like it might be a bit seller, huh? lol). I am not very familiar with such a comparison. TBH my first impression of it is that it seems to be used to usher a more post-modernistic mindset into the church. I hope I'm wrong though.

 

[cyberlizard]

Lulav, no I have not read that book, but I would love to.


CL, could you please provide a link to the .pdf file, or possibly PM it me if you don't want to give it in public? I would be VERY appreciative, Bro.




Shalom

sorry can't however, see you inbox for a fuller reply.


steve

p.s. his email address can be found on his webpage.

 

[yedida]

Thank you everyone for the discussion here. I have a relative who is writing a book comparing the Hebraic mindset with Hellenistic (sounds like it might be a bit seller, huh? lol). I am not very familiar with such a comparison. TBH my first impression of it is that it seems to be used to usher a more post-modernistic mindset into the church. I hope I'm wrong though.

Shabbat Shalom Desmalia,
I'm not sure what post-modernistic mindset is (I'm a bit dense sometimes) but I don't think "Hebrew mind-set" is that.
I'm not really sure that it is even a "mind-set" at all. There is a marked difference between Eastern and Western thought/behavior and that hits it on the nail. Westerners think out their faith system and everything must connect and make sense; Easterners act on their faith system and the actions will cause everything to connect and fall into place.

 

[desmalia]

Shabbat Shalom Desmalia,
I'm not sure what post-modernistic mindset is (I'm a bit dense sometimes) but I don't think "Hebrew mind-set" is that.
I'm not really sure that it is even a "mind-set" at all. There is a marked difference between Eastern and Western thought/behavior and that hits it on the nail. Westerners think out their faith system and everything must connect and make sense; Easterners act on their faith system and the actions will cause everything to connect and fall into place.

And to you, sister.

Post-modernism can be described as existential and relativistic, denying any form of objective truth. "What's true for me may or may not be true for you". It relies heavily on the experiential. I don't think that is the Hebrew mindset either (though I really don't know much about that), but I'm concerned that the two are being grouped together, because it's so popular to call something "Hebrew" in the church, as if that gives it higher authority.

 

[Heber]

Of course, the flaw with post-modernism is their insistence on the simple truth that there is no objective truth! Given that objective 'anything' is impossible in any case - no one can be entirely objective - it all seems to be a way in which anyone can pick and choose what they want to believe because no-one has the right, final answer to anything.

I do not see a reasonable 'Hebrew mindset' falling into the post modernist category. In fact it is quite the opposite.

 

[yedida]

And to you, sister.

Post-modernism can be described as existential and relativistic, denying any form of objective truth. "What's true for me may or may not be true for you". It relies heavily on the experiential. I don't think that is the Hebrew mindset either (though I really don't know much about that), but I'm concerned that the two are being grouped together, because it's so popular to call something "Hebrew" in the church, as if that gives it higher authority.

Aaah, with the single word "experiential" you knocked Hebrew mindset right out of the running for equality with post-modernistic!! Most of us MJ/G's don't rely on experiences/emotions to discern what is good and pleasing to Hashem. Instead we search out the Word and obey with great joy.
Perhaps Western mindset and post-modernistic would be better bedfellows - both require alot of brain work with very little elbow grease applied.

 

[desmalia]

Of course, the flaw with post-modernism is their insistence on the simple truth that there is no objective truth! Given that objective 'anything' is impossible in any case - no one can be entirely objective - it all seems to be a way in which anyone can pick and choose what they want to believe because no-one has the right, final answer to anything.

Bingo. They believe the objective "truth" that there is no objective truth! lol

I do not see a reasonable 'Hebrew mindset' falling into the post modernist category. In fact it is quite the opposite.

This is what I have assumed about a Hebrew mindset, though I would like to know more about it. The way my relative is using it, and others I've seen who are trying to change the church seem to point to something contrary than at least what I see from people in the Scriptures. Not that all he says is off. He has a heavy focus on getting back into more personal intimate group settings for learning and growing (which sounds like biblical discipleship if you ask me) - something the modern evangelical church has largely lost touch with. However I see a danger in the "group think" way of learning and fellowshipping as that can really go off base and welcome all sorts of false doctrines if there is not a properly structured teaching system in place as well.

I hope I'm not pulling this thread off topic. Please let me know if I am, as that's not my intention.

Aaah, with the single word "experiential" you knocked Hebrew mindset right out of the running for equality with post-modernistic!! Most of us MJ/G's don't rely on experiences/emotions to discern what is good and pleasing to Hashem. Instead we search out the Word and obey with great joy.

As it should be, IMHO.

Perhaps Western mindset and post-modernistic would be better bedfellows - both require alot of brain work with very little elbow grease applied.

Agreed! I also think that postmodernism will eventually fail as it is not sustainable in the long run. It destroys communication, morality, and brain cells.

 

[chunkofcoal]

This might be a dumb question, but wouldn't at least part of the book of Daniel be better interpreted in a Babylonian mindset? Maybe Nebuchadnezzar wouldn't have understood Hebraisms any better than Belshazzar understood the writing on the wall.

 

[ContraMundum]

Thank you everyone for the discussion here. I have a relative who is writing a book comparing the Hebraic mindset with Hellenistic (sounds like it might be a bit seller, huh? lol). I am not very familiar with such a comparison. TBH my first impression of it is that it seems to be used to usher a more post-modernistic mindset into the church. I hope I'm wrong though.

I don't think scriptural paradigms are compatible with post-modernism, but a post-modern interpretation of the facts is almost a certainty.

Example: one might try to write about what one thinks is some kind of Hebrew vs Greek thought, but even the idea of "mindsets" is based on a post-modern interpretation of the world (even the word "mindset" smacks of a post-modern fast food way to understand the intricate thought mechanisms of theology and philosophy) One starts from a modern/post-modernist position!

The mere notion that "the church has been mistaken since its birth" about what is truth is plain pure and simple modernism. It elevates the individual to instant infallibility that far out measures any claim of the Popes. It completely overthrows the Biblical (thus Jewish) notion that truth is revealed by God even to individuals but received and understood collectively.

On this basis I agree with you. Modern and post-modernism are found most strikingly in those who claim to oppose such ideas.

 

[desmalia]

I don't think scriptural paradigms are compatible with post-modernism, but a post-modern interpretation of the facts is almost a certainty.

Example: one might try to write about what one thinks is some kind of Hebrew vs Greek thought, but even the idea of "mindsets" is based on a post-modern interpretation of the world (even the word "mindset" smacks of a post-modern fast food way to understand the intricate thought mechanisms of theology and philosophy) One starts from a modern/post-modernist position!

The mere notion that "the church has been mistaken since its birth" about what is truth is plain pure and simple modernism. It elevates the individual to instant infallibility that far out measures any claim of the Popes. It completely overthrows the Biblical (thus Jewish) notion that truth is revealed by God even to individuals but received and understood collectively.

On this basis I agree with you. Modern and post-modernism are found most strikingly in those who claim to oppose such ideas.

Very insightful, thank you.

 

[visionary]

Even the concept of believed collectively... is in dispute.. God could get the rocks of earth to speak better and clearer truths if necessary.. His message when upgraded by a prophet.. is at first rejected by the many and accepted by few.. that includes with God came in the flesh and spoke it.

 

[desmalia]

To get deeper into the concept for my relatives book for a moment...
He suggests that when Jesus said of the Pharisees to do as they say, not as they do, what He was primarily pointing out was the failure of the Pharisees to teach in the Hebraic way, having abandoned it for the Greco-Roman way. I have to disagree as I think it's clear He was pointing to their hypocrisy, no a particular learning or teaching style. Any thoughts?

 

[yedida]

To get deeper into the concept for my relatives book for a moment...
He suggests that when Jesus said of the Pharisees to do as they say, not as they do, what He was primarily pointing out was the failure of the Pharisees to teach in the Hebraic way, having abandoned it for the Greco-Roman way. I have to disagree as I think it's clear He was pointing to their hypocrisy, no a particular learning or teaching style. Any thoughts?

I think you're on to something there. There is far more evidence to show that the majority of the Pharisees were very hypocritical, demanding strict adherence from the crowds to things they wouldn't even consider doing. (Just a note on the side: Not ALL Pharisees were the bad guys.)

There is another lesser spoken of possibility? Concerning the text where it is spoken of the Pharisees being in the seat of Moses, therefore do what they say - there are a few mss. that read "do as he says." Just something to chew on......

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not as many as the there is for the after Christmas sales

http://www.christianforums.com/t7518603/#post56385175
Why I don't do Christmas (2)

 

[ChavaK]

Not as many as the there is for the after Christmas sales

http://www.christianforums.com/t7518603/#post56385175
Why I don't do Christmas (2)

Well, heck, let's not forget Black Friday or Cyber Monday...